Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Idbatterim · 22-03-2018 4:41pm

bk wrote: »

Good question, I'm not sure, I didn't see any mention of it, but I suspect it might be due to the lack of space that would be required for extra gear.

Yes, raising platforms on the Green Line would be complicated. But it would be a massive pity to cripple the capacity of the entire Metro line because of a bit of extra trouble along the Green line.

just google Driverless Low floor ...

http://www.crrcgc.cc/en/g7389/s13996/t287405.aspx

marno21 · 22-03-2018 4:42pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Indeed, I agree. However, let's not mistake this for a definite timetable that all this will happen seamlessly in nine years time, which will be fifty years since the suggestion of a line to Ballymun and the Airport was first mooted in the DRRTS proposals. Official Ireland's tardiness in approving any rail project and the inevitable change in Government between now and 2027 will ensure plenty of room for interference.

Can we save this please for a day on which we receive bad news?

The scheme is to start in 2021, not 2027. That's only 3 years away. There seems to be a lot of marketing around the scheme which will hopefully publicise it to the point where cancelling it becomes a major political issue for all involved.

There is also the matter that there are no public transport projects planned for Dublin in the short or medium term, and if none go ahead it'll be a political issue as Dublin's congestion issues don't need explaining on here.

Today is not the day for cynicism, the day of a deferral announcement is. We are all familiar with what happened Metro North, and I think what we got today more than makes up for it.

Idbatterim · 22-03-2018 4:44pm

Scenario 1: 60m LFV - Driver Controlled - 30 TPHPD: 12,390 PPDPH
Scenario 2: 60m HFV - Driverless Control - 40 TPHPD: 18,000 PPDPH
Scenario 3: 90m LFV - Driver Controlled - 30 TPHPD: 22,320 PPDPH
Scenario x: 90m HFV - Driverless Control - 40 TPHPD: 27,000 PPDPH

on this, can the driverless system operate more trams per hour than a driver based one?

bk · 22-03-2018 4:45pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

just google Driverless Low floor ...

http://www.crrcgc.cc/en/g7389/s13996/t287405.aspx

Yes, thanks, but I wonder if the issue is more space for motors, etc. As in, in order to hit the higher frequency of 40 TPHPD, you need two things:

- Driverless
- More powerful motors for high acceleration/deceleration speed.

It is the second bit that probably needs more space offered by HFV.

yabadabado · 22-03-2018 4:47pm

Without doubt it should be a automated system. It makes way more sense.
Be great to not have to fear the regular strikes that will inevitably take place.

Stephen15 · 22-03-2018 4:49pm

Where would low floor trams be acquired from? The Citadis trams would not be suitable for metro. I think the NTA may be going for the 60m lfvs because 90m lfvs do not exist yet. For the metro to thrive it needs to be high floor in order to maximise it's capacity in order to allow a bench style seating arrangement.

Idbatterim · 22-03-2018 4:49pm

yabadabado wrote: »

Without doubt it should be a automated system. It makes way more sense.
Be great to not have to fear the regular strikes that will inevitably take place.

I agree, the fact that a system, that wont see light of day, wont be introduced until 2027 (at least) in IRELAND (and this is key), it will beggar belief if it isnt automated and it will be a proper step and parting shot in the right direction...

Put it another way, I dont think we should be turning a silk purse, into a sow's ear! Over 1-2% of the total project budget, again, a lot of which will go back to government coffers...

bk · 22-03-2018 4:54pm

At Whitworth Road, it looks like Des Kelly, the houses next to it and the Brian Boru pub will all have to go, with I assume major disruption to both rail lines there.

matrim · 22-03-2018 5:00pm

bk wrote: »

At Whitworth Road, it looks like Des Kelly, the houses next to it and the Brian Boru pub will all have to go, with I assume major disruption to both rail lines there.

Wouldn't there only be a smaller area needed above ground for access with most of the above ground staying as is.

marno21 · 22-03-2018 5:01pm

matrim wrote: »

Wouldn't there only be a smaller area needed above ground for access with most of the above ground staying as is.

There is a plan to build a major surface heavy rail interchange station there.

bk · 22-03-2018 5:11pm

matrim wrote: »

Wouldn't there only be a smaller area needed above ground for access with most of the above ground staying as is.

No, the normal (cheap) way to build stations is with a full station box the length of the station. You basically just dig straight down from above.

Though in this case they might mine it out due to the tracks above.

marno21 wrote: »

There is a plan to build a major surface heavy rail interchange station there.

Yes, this is indicated in the outline of the work site. Looks like the rail station will go at the expected place out back behind Des Kelly between the two rails tracks.

bk · 22-03-2018 5:15pm

Measuring the indicated size of a couple of the major station boxes, it looks like they are 120 meters to 130 meters. Which sound good, sounds like they could be expanded to 90 meters in future.

Also the preferred option seems to be for dual bore tunnels with station platform in the middle between the two. Though they are also considering side by side in a single bore.

BTW looks like a bit of CPO'ing of houses around the tie-in will also be required. And quiet a bit of land taken behind Tara, though I assume they can come to an agreement with a developer for building offices over it after the work is complete.

lawred2 · 22-03-2018 5:31pm

map seems to state only one park and ride at the Northernmost end

sameoldname · 22-03-2018 5:32pm

From looking at the Green Line PDF it seems that if the trains are the low-floor with driver option (and it looks like they are trying to push that as their preferred solution) that pedestrians will still be permitted to cross the tracks to get to their desired platform. In fact, they'll have no other option as they aren't looking to provide any elevator/bridge type crossing you'd get at a heavy rail station.

Can't say I like that idea at all. The drivers will have to crawl in and out of the stations to avoid the inevitable idiots with a death-wish crossing in-front of a moving train.

I assume that aside from the extra cost of upgrading the station platforms to the high-floor option the other massive drawback would presumably be that they'd have to close the Green Line while they rebuild the stations?

Sierra Oscar · 22-03-2018 5:38pm

Na Fianna GAA Club are really digging in over the plan to use their grounds for construction. Apparently they were only informed of the need to use their grounds last week.

Important communication for all CLG Na Fianna members regarding today’s Metrolink announcement

To be expected I suppose, they'll be looking for a big payout.

marno21 · 22-03-2018 5:55pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Na Fianna GAA Club are really digging in over the plan to use their grounds for construction. Apparently they were only informed of the need to use their grounds last week.

Important communication for all CLG Na Fianna members regarding today’s Metrolink announcement

To be expected I suppose, they'll be looking for a big payout.

From their club perspective, this is a massive disruption and it would be negligent on the club officers not to start a large fight immediately.

From an outside perspective, it's one of the unavoidable realities of the project. Such a project cannot be implemented without significant disruption, and the benefits post opening will be massive for everyone in the area

bk · 22-03-2018 5:58pm

So, the detailed station plans are here (note big PDF):

http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/alignment-options-study/study-1/metrolink-concept-engineering-drawings-book.pdf

They confirm that the station platforms are 90m and that the station boxes themselves are quiet a bit more then that.

Whitworth Road and Tara St look particularly impressive. Here is a cross section of Whitworth Road with substantial Irish Rail station included:

ciaran75 · 22-03-2018 6:00pm

If Connolly is already at capacity, how will it take extra trains once Maynooth and Kildare lines have been upgraded to DART

marno21 · 22-03-2018 6:02pm

Anne Graham NTA CEO will be on Today FM after 5 in relation to Metrolink

Idbatterim · 22-03-2018 6:23pm

would they not have Colm Mccarthy on calling it a white elephant? Like he no doubt claimed the Luas would be, the one that people cant even board at peak times?

bk · 22-03-2018 6:29pm

ciaran75 wrote: »

If Connolly is already at capacity, how will it take extra trains once Maynooth and Kildare lines have been upgraded to DART

Looks like Docklands station will also see big increases and act as a terminal statino for one of those lines. If you want to go to Connolly or further south and your on a train destined for Docklands, then you change for a south bound train at Whitworth Road. Likewise you can also change at Whitworth road to head to the Airport or O'Connell St - Tara - Stephens Green via Metro.

marno21 · 22-03-2018 6:33pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

would they not have Colm Mccarthy on calling it a white elephant? Like he no doubt claimed the Luas would be, the one that people cant even board at peak times?

I'd much rather Colm McCarthy came on to point out the obscene wastes of money in the Irish public service as opposed to the €5m per year that SF & FF are so focused on

Idbatterim · 22-03-2018 6:33pm

I take it that it will run underground in Ballymun? (Ok Ann Graham on the radio has just confirmed it will operate from Charlemont to passed the airport, underground)

bk · 22-03-2018 6:35pm

Just reading the document on the Tie-In options. The preferred option, Option 4(B), Ranelagh In-Line is a bit yikes!

It will require the full closure of the Luas green line between Ranelagh and Charlemont for one whole year!!! Yikes, those who were mad about Luas Cross City are going to be fuming about that.

It will also mean no engineering connection between the lines.

They do mention the option of running the Luas from Harcourt St down Ranelagh Road to Ranelagh to avoid disturbing the Luas during this time, but don't go into much detail on it.

Idbatterim · 22-03-2018 6:42pm

Ann Graham has just come onto Today FM to discuss...

ciaran75 · 22-03-2018 6:43pm

bk wrote: »

Looks like Docklands station will also see big increases and act as a terminal statino for one of those lines. If you want to go to Connolly or further south and your on a train destined for Docklands, then you change for a south bound train at Whitworth Road. Likewise you can also change at Whitworth road to head to the Airport or O'Connell St - Tara - Stephens Green via Metro.

Thanks, will maynooth line terminate at connolly so would have to change to DART to go towards bray or can you still remain on same train till Tara / pearse like now

I get maynooth to Tara each day but would prefer not to have a change.

TallGlass · 22-03-2018 6:46pm

Is this a LOL moment or will it actually be built?

Idbatterim · 22-03-2018 6:47pm

TallGlass wrote: »

Is this a LOL moment or will it actually be built?

Id say it will be built, barring another economic disaster between now and the TBM's going into the ground...

Equium · 22-03-2018 6:48pm

bk wrote: »

So, the detailed station plans are here (note big PDF):

http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/alignment-options-study/study-1/metrolink-concept-engineering-drawings-book.pdf

They confirm that the station platforms are 90m and that the station boxes themselves are quiet a bit more then that.

Whitworth Road and Tara St look particularly impressive. Here is a cross section of Whitworth Road with substantial Irish Rail station included:

I'm genuinely excited about the potential for the area around Tara Street/Pearse Street. Yes, Johnny Ronan's 22 storey tower next to the existing Tara Street station was rejected this week, but with Apollo House currently being demolished and impressive redevelopment proposals recently submitted for College House and Hawkins House, this long-neglected area of the city centre could soon be a thriving district with it's own metro and mainline stations.

Furthermore, Trinity will soon have a business school and new student accommodation opening out onto Pearse Street. Hopefully this will be the start of a gradual linking of the traditional city centre and Grand Canal Dock areas.

In saying that, I'm also somewhat concerned by the lack of any enabling works for a DART Underground interchange at St Stephens Green within these Metrolink drawings. I know that project is not included in the 2040 development plan, but still...

bk · 22-03-2018 6:53pm

ciaran75 wrote: »

Thanks, will maynooth line terminate at connolly so would have to change to DART to go towards bray or can you still remain on same train till Tara / pearse like now

I get maynooth to Tara each day but would prefer not to have a change.

We don't know yet, exactly how it will be arranged, but I assume it will be one of two options:

1) Your train (which will now be electric) will go through Connolly/Tara and continue south to all stations to Bray.
2) It will terminate at Docklands, so you change to another DART at Whitworth Road to head to Connolly and then south to all stations to Bray.

I suspect the first option is most likely for the Maynooth line, but no guarantee.

Don't forget another option for you will be to get off at Whitworth Road and get on a Metro that heads to Tara St.

tom1ie · 22-03-2018 7:01pm

I think we missed a big opportunity in taking traffic off the m1 and thus m50, with such a small scale p+r. We should be building an efficient, multiple multi storey p+r on the one site to hold 10000 cars to make any real dent in the traffic levels. 3000 parking spaces divided over the four hour rush hour gives you 750 parking spaces per hour which is a small figure compared to the level of traffic using the m1.
A missed opportunity there. I know its not as big a subject as low floor or high floor metros but still pretty important in reducing car useage on m50/m1

bk · 22-03-2018 7:10pm

tom1ie wrote: »

I think we missed a big opportunity in taking traffic off the m1 and thus m50, with such a small scale p+r. We should be building an efficient, multiple multi storey p+r on the one site to hold 10000 cars to make any real dent in the traffic levels. 3000 parking spaces divided over the four hour rush hour gives you 750 parking spaces per hour which is a small figure compared to the level of traffic using the m1.
A missed opportunity there. I know its not as big a subject as low floor or high floor metros but still pretty important in reducing car useage on m50/m1

The proposed P+R is a multistorey according to the plans. Looks like there is plenty of space for expansion there if the demand is there.

They also have a marked in option for a future station at Daridstown, which I assume would be for a second P+R on the M50.

thomasj · 22-03-2018 7:12pm

cgcsb wrote:

crucially it includes new DART stations at Heuston West and Cabra as predicted on boards. Also the layout of the lines does give a little hint about proposed service pattern i.e. Hazelhatch to GCD and Maynooth to Docks.

That map to me looks the other way around , ie it's the hazelhatch line going up the Midlands line towards the docks.

bk · 22-03-2018 7:13pm

thomasj wrote: »

That map to me looks the other way around , ie it's the hazelhatch line going up the Midlands line towards the docks.

I don't think you can tell anything really from that map. I would expect major track realignments around Whitworth Road, Connolly and Docklands.

marno21 · 22-03-2018 7:14pm

tom1ie wrote: »

I think we missed a big opportunity in taking traffic off the m1 and thus m50, with such a small scale p+r. We should be building an efficient, multiple multi storey p+r on the one site to hold 10000 cars to make any real dent in the traffic levels. 3000 parking spaces divided over the four hour rush hour gives you 750 parking spaces per hour which is a small figure compared to the level of traffic using the m1.
A missed opportunity there. I know its not as big a subject as low floor or high floor metros but still pretty important in reducing car useage on m50/m1

Remember there will be a reduction in traffic volumes anyway due to traffic changing to using the Metro without driving to a Metro station.

3000 spaces is a great start for the P&R. Carpooling incentives and bike spaces will further help here. If the P&R were too big the P&R itself would become congested.

Elessar · 22-03-2018 7:20pm

Having a look through the plans today and am well impressed. Dublin will finally be getting a metro like every other major European city.

A few questions though I'm wondering if others can answer (or can see what I can't):

Will the trains be automated or need drivers? From the looks of the press photos it seems they will be auto?

What are the chances the project will get delayed by objection after objection to an bord pleanala? Really grinds my gears that a single person can hold up a critical infrastructure project that would benefit the country as a whole (I'm thinking the Apple datacenter).

bk · 22-03-2018 7:26pm

Elessar wrote: »

Will the trains be automated or need drivers? From the looks of the press photos it seems they will be auto?

They haven't decided yet, seem to be considering both options.

Elessar wrote: »

What are the chances the project will get delayed by objection after objection to an bord pleanala? Really grinds my gears that a single person can hold up a critical infrastructure project that would benefit the country as a whole (I'm thinking the Apple datacenter).

Very likely to go through a torturous ABP process and probably go to court then. It requires a whole bunch of CPO's and nosiy work to get done.

Elessar · 22-03-2018 7:33pm

bk wrote: »

Very likely to go through a torturous ABP process and probably go to court then. It requires a whole bunch of CPO's and nosiy work to get done.

I fear you are right. If anything guarantees a delay to a large project it's the planning process. Wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we don't see this operational until after 2030. An bord pleanala appeals, Supreme Court appeals, EU court appeals, all because Mary McIdontwantprogress is enraged that a native bird/squirrel/swan won't be able to nest where it usually does, or some such nonsense. This should be marked critical infrastructure and given the go ahead ASAP. Sorry for the rant

Glad it's at least on the move.

yabadabado · 22-03-2018 7:39pm

I know there has to be planning laws and a process needs to take place but for a major infrastructure project likes this it should be sped up and have ways to prevent every nimby appealing it.
This project is of national importance and should be a fast tracking planning application.

Anyone know how it works in other EU countries when they are building a a major PT project?

LeinsterDub · 22-03-2018 7:41pm

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

It's live!

It renders dreadfully on my phone.

LeinsterDub · 22-03-2018 7:46pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Stephen's Green West station seem very remote from existing luas and proposed future DART underground station.

In what world is any part of SSG remote from a other part of it. You can walk around the entire place in minutes

AlmightyCushion · 22-03-2018 7:46pm

bk wrote: »

Here are the options, including Luas at 55m and my option x that they didn't include:

Luas: 55m LFV - Driver Controlled - 20 TPHPD: 7,380 PPDPH

Scenario 1: 60m LFV - Driver Controlled - 30 TPHPD: 12,390 PPDPH
Scenario 2: 60m HFV - Driverless Control - 40 TPHPD: 18,000 PPDPH
Scenario 3: 90m LFV - Driver Controlled - 30 TPHPD: 22,320 PPDPH
Scenario x: 90m HFV - Driverless Control - 40 TPHPD: 27,000 PPDPH

I have to say, it feels like they have already decided on option 1 and trying to hood wink people on the 90m being a future upgrade and ignoring the obviously much superior automated HFV option like Copenhagen has.

Scenario 1 is less then twice the capacity of Luas, while option x would be 4 times the possible max capacity of Luas for only a little extra money.

Where do you get your figures for scenario x as they seem a little off.
Going from 60m LFV to 60m HFV gives an increase of 5,610 or 45%
Going from 90m LFV to 90m HFV gives an increase of only 4,680 or only 20%

I know figures probably won't be linear but the 90m HFV figure looks way too low. It should be at least over 30,000 I'd say at a guesstimate.

It really needs to be HFV and driverless. A 45% increase in passenger capacity on the 60m option is massive. It would be insane to pass that up just to save on the hassle of upgrading the green line.

Dyr · 22-03-2018 7:47pm

This from Na Fianna GAA, the old trick of contacting people at 4:30 on a friday (and a bank holiday) is classic govt dept burying the chance to respond. Filthy carry on

At a meeting in Mobhi Road on Tuesday night 20th March, members of the Na Fianna Club Executive were advised by representatives from Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) that the construction programme for the proposed Metro Link (formerly known as Metro North and due to commence in 2020), would involve the requisition of the front pitch and both all-weather pitches on Mobhi Road as well as Home Farm soccer pitch. The front pitch and both all-weather pitches as we currently now know them would become a Tunnel Boring Depot for the duration of the Metro Link construction project, with a permanent underground station being situated under Mobhi Road upon completion.

The first contact that the Club had with TII was through a phone call received at approximately 4.30pm on Friday 16th March, bank holiday weekend. This was the first time the Club was alerted that the new Metro Project would have any implication for the Club. TII requested the meeting, mentioned above, where we were informed of the severe impact the proposed project would have on Na Fianna’s home.

The Club is naturally very concerned and alarmed with this news. We are also deeply disappointed by the lack of respect afforded that a decision of this magnitude was advised to CLG Na Fianna, less than 48 hours prior to the formal Government announcement.

The physical impact of this proposal on Na Fianna as we currently understand it will be;

Loss of main Mobhi road pitch for a minimum of 3 years, potentially 6 or more years
Loss of both All-Weather pitches for a minimum of 3 years, potentially 6 or more years.
Significant loss of revenue from clubhouse activities

lawred2 · 22-03-2018 7:48pm

Are CPOs of homes deliverable? Whatever about a bit of farm land or road frontage but actually taking possession of people's homes? Is the legislation in place for that?

Khuitlio · 22-03-2018 7:49pm

marno21 wrote: »

From their club perspective, this is a massive disruption and it would be negligent on the club officers not to start a large fight immediately.

From an outside perspective, it's one of the unavoidable realities of the project. Such a project cannot be implemented without significant disruption, and the benefits post opening will be massive for everyone in the area

There seems to be a lot of potential site that they could relocate to for a couple of years.

Behind the Botanic Gardens
DCU
All Hallows
Whitehall
2X Potential sites of Griffith Avenue

While it'd be a big inconvenience for the club, it's not the end of the world for 3-6 years.

Lord Glentoran · 22-03-2018 7:50pm

marno21 wrote: »

Can we save this please for a day on which we receive bad news?

The scheme is to start in 2021, not 2027. That's only 3 years away. There seems to be a lot of marketing around the scheme which will hopefully publicise it to the point where cancelling it becomes a major political issue for all involved.

There is also the matter that there are no public transport projects planned for Dublin in the short or medium term, and if none go ahead it'll be a political issue as Dublin's congestion issues don't need explaining on here.

Today is not the day for cynicism, the day of a deferral announcement is. We are all familiar with what happened Metro North, and I think what we got today more than makes up for it.

Sorry Marno21, but I am too long in the tooth to be anything less than cynical. I wish everyone working on the project well but experience teaches me that political and economic tinkering is endemic in Ireland.

bk · 22-03-2018 7:58pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Where do you get your figures for scenario x as they seem a little off.
Going from 60m LFV to 60m HFV gives an increase of 5,610 or 45%
Going from 90m LFV to 90m HFV gives an increase of only 4,680 or only 20%

I know figures probably won't be linear but the 90m HFV figure looks way too low. It should be at least over 30,000 I'd say at a guesstimate.

It really needs to be HFV and driverless. A 45% increase in passenger capacity on the 60m option is massive. It would be insane to pass that up just to save on the hassle of upgrading the green line.

Yes, that is weird. My Scenario x was based on the 60m HFV number and increasing it to 90m:

18,000 / 60 × 90 = 27,000

The LFV numbers are a bit weird, but I think they scale differently from the HFV numbers.

The driverless HFV option doesn't include a cab for the driver, so it should scale directly. While the LFV both include a cab, so adding an extra 30 meters should add a bit more due to the first 60 meter already including the cab, if that makes sense.

But I agree a 90m driverless could be even higher.

Ireland trains · 22-03-2018 7:59pm

I think irish rail should electrify platforms 1-3 at Connolly and have half of the Maynooth trains (3) and half of the Drogheda trains (3) terminating at connolly and the other half (6) go on to bray/ Greystones and have the Hazelhatch and m3 Parkway trains going to Docklands and the Howth service into a shuttle to Howth JN. Some Hazelhatch services should continue to Bray/GCD and some terminating at Heuston and then have some bi mode trains from Connolly to Portlaiose to connect to Heuston intercity trains

CarlosHarpic · 22-03-2018 8:02pm

So the Phoenix Park Tunnel route. A stretch of railline CIE managers told a government committee in 2003 was "not capable of being used by modern commuter trains" is to be the prime interchange location between the Metro and Commuter rail.

bk · 22-03-2018 8:06pm

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

So the Phoenix Park Tunnel route. A stretch of railline CIE managers told a government committee in 2003 was "not capable of being used by modern commuter trains" is to be the prime interchange location between the Metro and Commuter rail.

It makes sense. The PPT was always perfectly fine, Irish Rail just really wanted Dart Underground (understandable) and they knew that PPT + Whitworth Road would greatly reduce the need for DU. So they fought PPT tooth and nail.

I suspect we will still eventually get DU, but this could help tide us well for years.

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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