Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

sameoldname · 26-03-2018 2:47pm

jd wrote: »

I don't think he is suggesting that we lose a station. We still have the DCU station and the Griiffith station is moved slightly south. Under the current proposals Home Farm will lose their pitch for up to six years, construction of just a station box should take a lot less than that.

Sorry, indeed you are correct. But that means removing 2 separate sets of pitches no? Also, if you put the TBM's in at Albert College Park then they lose their pitches for 6 years. Someone loses out for the 6 years regardless and now a second pitch at Home Farm would be gone for the time it takes to build the station.

sameoldname · 26-03-2018 2:59pm

Just thinking about why the TBM's are going to go in here. I assume it's because it's roughly middle distance of the tunnel section and that they'll send each TBM out from the centre and then turn them around at the end to drill the second tunnel and extract them through the entry point one they are finished?

I'm guessing you couldn't send them both in at Dardistown to dig one side each because there's no space at Charlemont to dig a hole to get them out and you can't pull them back through the completed tunnels? If that's the case you could do it with only 1 TBM but it'd take 12 years instead of 6!

Also, I'm figuring they won't do a Channel Tunnel style job where they get the TBM to dig down after it's finished and just bury it there.

bk · 26-03-2018 3:11pm

For those interested,

Here is what the interior of the Barcelona Metro looks like:

Barcelona_-_Inside_Metro_-_L10_%287510371530%29.jpg

And here is what the Copenhagen one looks like:

The Copenhagen one is particularly interesting as it is an example of a HFV, driverless Metro that the Metrolink people looked at as an option for here.

And this is what the front of the train looks like with no driver cab, very cool:

MayoSalmon · 26-03-2018 3:12pm

jd wrote: »

I don't think he is suggesting that we lose a station. We still have the DCU station and the Griiffith station is moved slightly south. Under the current proposals Home Farm will lose their pitch for up to six years, construction of just a station box should take a lot less than that.

Home farm have another facility and look they will get very handsomely rewarded for the inconvenience I would imagine.

Take the good with the bad.

bk · 26-03-2018 3:12pm

Looking at the above pictures and reading about the Copenhagen Metro, there is no doubt in my mind at all that we should be going with driverless HFV.

sameoldname · 26-03-2018 3:21pm

bk wrote: »

Looking at the above pictures and reading about the Copenhagen Metro, there is no doubt in my mind at all that we should be going with driverless HFV.

I completely agree but how long do you think it would take them to do the work? I'm assuming the entirety of the upgraded section of Green Line would have to be closed while the works are happening and it wouldn't reopen until the entire Metro is ready to roll? Is it even politically possible?

citizen6 · 26-03-2018 3:27pm

Given the location of the Whitworth Road and Collins Ave stops, wouldn't it make more sense for the intermediate stop to be at Griffith Ave? Closer to halfway between them than the proposed Griffith Park stop. Might be possible to squeeze it in on Ballymun Rd opposite Mobhi Post Office.

Stopping at Griffith Ave would allow for better bus connections as was suggested for Collins Ave. It might also allow a straighter run for the tunnelling, although I understand why they prefer to tunnel under the road than under houses.

bk · 26-03-2018 3:37pm

sameoldname wrote: »

I completely agree but how long do you think it would take them to do the work? I'm assuming the entirety of the upgraded section of Green Line would have to be closed while the works are happening and it wouldn't reopen until the entire Metro is ready to roll? Is it even politically possible?

Good, question, I think there are ways around it. After-all the tie-in at Ranelagh is going to be WAY more disruptive.

citizen6 wrote: »

Given the location of the Whitworth Road and Collins Ave stops, wouldn't it make more sense for the intermediate stop to be at Griffith Ave? Closer to halfway between them than the proposed Griffith Park stop. Might be possible to squeeze it in on Ballymun Rd opposite Mobhi Post Office.

Stopping at Griffith Ave would allow for better bus connections as was suggested for Collins Ave. It might also allow a straighter run for the tunnelling, although I understand why they prefer to tunnel under the road than under houses.

I think that location would be out of alignment with the stations before and after.

It is clear from the plans that were possible, they want to go straight down underneath the roads, like Mobhi Road, rather then houses.

I suspect this allows them to build it more shallow, which probably greatly reduces construction costs.

26-03-2018 3:48pm

bk wrote: »

Looking at the above pictures and reading about the Copenhagen Metro, there is no doubt in my mind at all that we should be going with driverless HFV.

Any idea what the Singapore MRT are using? I was there last year on business and I was very impressed with their metro. They were made by Bombardier i believe.

I only realized they were driverless when i happened to get on the first carriage and i was where the driver should be looking down the tunnel :cool:

citizen6 · 26-03-2018 3:52pm

bk wrote: »

Good, question, I think there are ways around it. After-all the tie-in at Ranelagh is going to be WAY more disruptive.

I think that location would be out of alignment with the stations before and after.

It is clear from the plans that were possible, they want to go straight down underneath the roads, like Mobhi Road, rather then houses.

I suspect this allows them to build it more shallow, which probably greatly reduces construction costs.

The proposed tunnel route goes crosses Griffith Ave at Mobhi Rd. A stop there or 100m west on Ballymun Rd would give better connections and catchment.

A straight line from Cross Guns bridge to Collins Ave/Ballymun Rd junction would run under Bons Secours hospital, so that's not an option. But a more direct tunnelling route could be possible if the stop is at Griffith Ave rather than Griffith Park. But even with the same tunnel route, I think the stop on Griffith Ave makes more sense.

sameoldname · 26-03-2018 3:53pm

citizen6 wrote: »

Given the location of the Whitworth Road and Collins Ave stops, wouldn't it make more sense for the intermediate stop to be at Griffith Ave? Closer to halfway between them than the proposed Griffith Park stop. Might be possible to squeeze it in on Ballymun Rd opposite Mobhi Post Office.

Stopping at Griffith Ave would allow for better bus connections as was suggested for Collins Ave. It might also allow a straighter run for the tunnelling, although I understand why they prefer to tunnel under the road than under houses.

I'm guessing it's due to cost. It's cheaper to put a station where there is already a hole for the TBM entry point.

bk · 26-03-2018 4:16pm

As for the idea of putting it under Albert College Park. A few other issues:

- The park has a number of playing fields used by Na Fianna (ironically), Glasnevin Soccer Club, Bohemian F.C., as well as Boules, running track, tennis courts and a playground.
- It is accessible to the public to use all of most days in a way that the Na Fianna grounds really aren't.

To be honest I think Albert College Park would be a much greater loss to the local community for 6 years then Na Fianna would be.

I think if I was Na Fianna supporter, I'd focus more on trying to get both the station and portal built on the green fields that DCU own on Griffith Avenue. I think that would receive less location objection then Albert Park, though it might ramp up the cost of the Metro, due to more difficult alignment.

Also that location would put it smack bang between both the Swords Road (600m) and Ballymun Road (500m) making it a nice interchange point for buses on both of those roads, along with the orbital route on Griffith Avenue.

citizen6 · 26-03-2018 4:33pm

bk wrote: »

As for the idea of putting it under Albert College Park. A few other issues:

- The park has a number of playing fields used by Na Fianna (ironically), Glasnevin Soccer Club, Bohemian F.C., as well as Boules, running track, tennis courts and a playground.
- It is accessible to the public to use all of most days in a way that the Na Fianna grounds really aren't.

To be honest I think Albert College Park would be a much greater loss to the local community for 6 years then Na Fianna would be.

I think if I was Na Fianna supporter, I'd focus more on trying to get both the station and portal built on the green fields that DCU own on Griffith Avenue. I think that would receive less location objection then Albert Park, though it might ramp up the cost of the Metro, due to more difficult alignment.

Also that location would put it smack bang between both the Swords Road (600m) and Ballymun Road (500m) making it a nice interchange point for buses on both of those roads, along with the orbital route on Griffith Avenue.

Agreed, those DCU fields would be an option. Not sure if they would look to move the Collins Ave stop in that case.

Re Albert College Park, they would just need the pitches adjacent to the Ballymun Rd, not the playground, tennis courts etc.

bk · 26-03-2018 4:54pm

One thing though, if you look at the plan documents it is clear that they are basically running the tunnel down the length of Ballymun Road and St Mobhi Road and that it thus doesn't run under any houses.

I suspect, but don't know for certain, that this means they can build the tunnel shallow and it saves costs.

If you go slightly off this line to Griffith Avenue or the post office at Mobhi Road, then you are now going under houses and I suspect that it then forces them to tunnel much deeper along the entire length of this section and would have a big impact on costs.

So I think these other options are technically possible, but not without cost.

blanch152 · 26-03-2018 5:34pm

sameoldname wrote: »

Just thinking about why the TBM's are going to go in here. I assume it's because it's roughly middle distance of the tunnel section and that they'll send each TBM out from the centre and then turn them around at the end to drill the second tunnel and extract them through the entry point one they are finished?

I'm guessing you couldn't send them both in at Dardistown to dig one side each because there's no space at Charlemont to dig a hole to get them out and you can't pull them back through the completed tunnels? If that's the case you could do it with only 1 TBM but it'd take 12 years instead of 6!

Also, I'm figuring they won't do a Channel Tunnel style job where they get the TBM to dig down after it's finished and just bury it there.

My understanding is that they will reuse them for Dart Underground.

Dats me · 26-03-2018 5:37pm

Why is there a portal going down there anyway? Would it not at the beginning and the end of the tunnel?

Stephen15 · 26-03-2018 5:39pm

Could they not buy a tunnel boring machine from Crossrail perhaps?

P_1 · 26-03-2018 6:01pm

Another (potentially controversial) option could be to have the TBMs start digging on Mobhi Road (around here https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lin+Kee/@53.3794609,-6.2655191,182m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48670e0ce385c32f:0x8044527d20c494a7!8m2!3d53.379521!4d-6.266001 )

Though that might involve CPOing about 12 houses.

yabadabado · 26-03-2018 6:10pm

P_1 wrote: »

Another (potentially controversial) option could be to have the TBMs start digging on Mobhi Road (around here https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lin+Kee/@53.3794609,-6.2655191,182m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48670e0ce385c32f:0x8044527d20c494a7!8m2!3d53.379521!4d-6.266001 )

Though that might involve CPOing about 12 houses.

It's tough on the sports clubs affected but it's a much better option to use those grounds than CPO houses.

BonnieSituation · 26-03-2018 8:04pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Could they not buy a tunnel boring machine from Crossrail perhaps?

Why?

Given that the last one was dismantled and recycled I would doubt it would be much use in Dublin.

Sure usually they just get rammed into the earth when completed and buried.

yabadabado · 26-03-2018 8:25pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why?

Given that the last one was dismantled and recycled I would doubt it would be much use in Dublin.

Sure usually they just get rammed into the earth when completed and buried.

Won't the two TBMs needed also be used on DU? I think I saw that was the plan.

I think Crossrail used 8 TBMs they hardly buried all of them, must be a better way to dispose of them. Is it cost that sees them buried when the job is completed or do they have a short life cycle?

BonnieSituation · 26-03-2018 8:30pm

yabadabado wrote: »

Won't the two TBMs needed also be used on DU? I think I saw that was the plan.

I think Crossrail used 8 TBMs they hardly buried all of them, must be a better way to dispose of them. Is it cost that sees them buried when the job is completed or do they have a short life cycle?

If you read what I said that in a lot of cases they are buried. I also said that in the case of Crossrail, the last one used, Victoria, was dismantled and recycled. It would strike me as that might have also been the fate of the previous 7. But I don't care enough to investigate that tbh.

There's something for you and Stephen to go and find out for the rest of us.

ricimaki · 26-03-2018 8:34pm

TBMs are designed for specific rock/soil types, and cannot be used with the wrong type. I think the crossrail project had 2 different types, as did the eurotunnel back in the day

BowSideChamp · 26-03-2018 8:36pm

If the local community don't support a 3billion metro serving them then don't give it to them. Build the line somewhere else. The ****e coming out of Na Fianna is typical Nimbyism.

marno21 · 26-03-2018 8:38pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

If the local community don't support a 3billion metro serving them then don't give it to them. Build the line somewhere else. The ****e coming out of Na Fianna is typical Nimbyism.

Why should the rest of the people along the corridor have to suffer because Na Fianna's members are objecting?

This is Ireland. No matter what you build, where you build it and how beneficial it is, someone will still object.

ricimaki · 26-03-2018 8:39pm

Here's a handy tool to help you decide which TBM you should buy! Shame they don't list prices...

LeinsterDub · 26-03-2018 8:44pm

ricimaki wrote: »

Here's a handy tool to help you decide which TBM you should buy! Shame they don't list prices...

Are you suggesting we all club together and build our own poxy metro? Because if you are I'm in.

murphaph · 26-03-2018 10:05pm

I think when TBMs are buried they often strip out all the reusable stuff like electrical switchgear and the conveyor system etc. and just leave the chassis and cutting head buried. All that stuff can be carried out through the tunnel.

salmocab · 26-03-2018 10:36pm

Without doing any research would the TBMs for the DU not need to be bigger than the metro ones?

bk · 26-03-2018 10:50pm

salmocab wrote: »

Without doing any research would the TBMs for the DU not need to be bigger than the metro ones?

Maybe, depends on what they want for DU. If it is just DART's and nothing else, then maybe, but if they want the tunnel to also be able to support long distance and intercity trains, then it would need to be wider.

murphaph · 27-03-2018 7:26am

bk wrote: »

Maybe, depends on what they want for DU. If it is just DART's and nothing else, then maybe, but if they want the tunnel to also be able to support long distance and intercity trains, then it would need to be wider.

Is the loading gauge really wider or taller on the intercity stock?

madbeanman · 27-03-2018 9:16am

Was the Irish language name of this service announced?

I would like it to be Luas Underground or even call it Dart Underground and then add the original Dart Underground proposal later. There is a lack of a feeling of cohesion to the DUblin transport system.

cgcsb · 27-03-2018 9:33am

looks like the cabra station on the enhanced DART service now won't happen because the site now has permission for housing:

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/marlet-gets-green-light-for-420-homes-in-dublin-36739436.html

I'm reminded of the apartment block in Smithfield that was built over the route of the proposed bus lane. I wonder have the powers that be copped on to this one yet? ? it certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

yabadabado · 27-03-2018 10:23am

Any way the Dart station could still be incorporated into the development?

jd · 27-03-2018 10:29am

yabadabado wrote: »

Any way the Dart station could still be incorporated into the development?

I think so - here is the plan

CatInABox · 27-03-2018 11:10am

I posted it in the other thread as well, but I'm pretty sure that the developers would be delighted at a Dart station going in roght next to their development, surely it would add to the sale price of all the units.

tobsey · 27-03-2018 11:13am

jd wrote: »

I think so - here is the plan

Yeah should be no problem. You'd fit the main part of Pearse station in there.

Pixel Eater · 27-03-2018 11:20am

cgcsb wrote: »

looks like the cabra station on the enhanced DART service now won't happen because the site now has permission for housing:

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/marlet-gets-green-light-for-420-homes-in-dublin-36739436.html

I'm reminded of the apartment block in Smithfield that was built over the route of the proposed bus lane. I wonder have the powers that be copped on to this one yet? ? it certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

jd wrote: »

I think so - here is the plan

Doesn't appear obvious (at least to me) where the station would go; I assume it be outside the red boundary line and over the tracks? It seems four tracking at that section too.

Just wondering, it's former CIE land; is this development a PPP? Or did the private developer just buy it outright?

Grandeeod · 27-03-2018 11:24am

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Doesn't appear obvious (at least to me) where the station would go; I assume it be outside the red boundary line and over the tracks? It seems four tracking at that section too.

Just wondering, it's former CIE land; is this development a PPP? Or did the private developer just buy it outright?

CIE sold the site in 2004 for €28m.

CarlosHarpic · 27-03-2018 11:34am

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Doesn't appear obvious (at least to me) where the station would go

Loads of room to work with there. Won't be any great feat building a station there. There is a tall grass embankment on the other side. They could comfortably fit three platforms if they wanted.

MJohnston · 27-03-2018 12:23pm

cgcsb wrote: »

looks like the cabra station on the enhanced DART service now won't happen because the site now has permission for housing:

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/marlet-gets-green-light-for-420-homes-in-dublin-36739436.html

I'm reminded of the apartment block in Smithfield that was built over the route of the proposed bus lane. I wonder have the powers that be copped on to this one yet? ? it certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

There's still plenty of room for a station even with this development (which has been in the works for years now).

roadmaster · 27-03-2018 1:30pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I posted it in the other thread as well, but I'm pretty sure that the developers would be delighted at a Dart station going in roght next to their development, surely it would add to the sale price of all the units.

Especially with the reduction of parking spaces for apartments with the new planning rules. i could be wrong but if you have public transport such as luas or rail on your doorstep you can get add an extra 15% on the asking price normally would be

lucernarian · 27-03-2018 1:39pm

bk wrote: »

Yes a great deal. This is one of the major goals of this plan.

At least 40,000 population increase planned for the Swords area and tens of thousands more apartments along the Green line to the south of the City.

We already talked about that specific aspect before BK, I showed what sort of development/brownfield sites are available near the Metrolink route from the Govt. agency responsible for documenting this, and those numbers are grossly inflated. Shouldn't you try to back your claim up with actual evidence like I have before?

The point really is that almost all housing that's planned along the green line/"metrolink" is happening irrespective of the new Metro - so it's a bit disingenuous to cite that as a major advantage of the scheme. What it WILL do is serve large swathes of Dublin with a far superior level of transport, and let people get across the city far more rapidly and conveniently. Many plans in Swords (like near the Pavilions) are already planning-approved, and right now the land around the Airport is being mooted as suitable for large business and office development.

lucernarian · 27-03-2018 1:53pm

MJohnston wrote: »

There's still plenty of room for a station even with this development (which has been in the works for years now).

Indeed there is, the site layout seems to leave enough space along the sidings, though I'm a little concerned about site/station access points (most rail stations have their catchment areas limited by the number of entrances.

This map is a little bigger than the one above
http://www.cabrashd.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Site-Location_Cabra-SHD-N195-A01_P1.pdf

I'd still like to see the station closer to the Phoenix Park just because of the very high density of housing in the northern part of Stoneybatter, plus the O'Devaney Gardens redevelopment plans. The Cabra sidings are a lot cheaper though.

cgcsb · 27-03-2018 2:01pm

A station at Blackhorse Avenue might also be possible.

lucernarian · 27-03-2018 2:11pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A station at Blackhorse Avenue might also be possible.

This is what I'm thinking of. I don't know if there's the space for it, but I guess that's for a different thread. It's not featuring in the govt's latest plan though, so I won't hold my breath.

ciaran75 · 27-03-2018 2:11pm

sitting at lunch there and two lads next to me talking about metro build
appears his house is getting destroyed but wasn't sure as he's hearing different things each day, has meeting this Wednesday

he had a great quote, "i just hope they fast track this build and feck the whingy bast&rds like me"

marno21 · 27-03-2018 2:18pm

Some light reading for a Tuesday afternoon

https://www.thesun.ie/news/2362918/underground-dream-metrolink-between-dublin-airport-and-city-centre-will-be-a-nightmare/

lucernarian · 27-03-2018 2:20pm

ciaran75 wrote: »

sitting at lunch there and two lads next to me talking about metro build
appears his house is getting destroyed but wasn't sure as he's hearing different things each day, has meeting this Wednesday

he had a great quote, "i just hope they fast track this build and feck the whingy bast&rds like me"

Colour me sceptical, I just can't imagine anyone ever saying that in a million years. MAYBE something like "I just hope they fast track the build and give me good compensation" but "feck me and my house"

Sam Russell · 27-03-2018 2:27pm

marno21 wrote: »

Some light reading for a Tuesday afternoon

https://www.thesun.ie/news/2362918/underground-dream-metrolink-between-dublin-airport-and-city-centre-will-be-a-nightmare/

Complaining the they got 48 hours notice is nonsense. They have three months to make representations. If they got more notice, what would they have done - gone to the papers? They did that anyway, so what more could they do? Perhaps propose an alternative might be an idea. There have been a few suggestions further up this thread.

They will have a Metro stop at their ground - that must be worth a lot to any club. Perhaps they should ask for the stop to be be named 'Na Fianna' as part of their compo.

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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