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Do you go to Mass regularly?

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13567…10

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    #62
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    You obviously have no concept of the phrases "teaching" and "nutritional information".

    The one thing I have a concept of is that you can't answer a straight question.

    Apparently teaching nutritional information equates to forcing the child to eat a healthy balanced diet....


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    #63
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Siuin wrote: »
    I don't see the association between worry about who the child is hanging out with and forcing them to go to mass when they don't want to go? I never said don't have boundaries, I just think religion is an issue where you should allow a child to see what is out there and let them make decisions as to what part it will play in their own lives, if at all. Forcing a child to sit through mass is completely counterproductive and selfish on the parent's behalf tbh.
    You're thinking and making decisions on the behalf of your child. You're imposing your own thoughts and opinions on them (Obviously with explanations as to why you're doing so) out of the belief that you're doing what's best for them. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.


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    #64
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,107 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    prinz wrote: »
    The one thing I have a concept of is that you can't answer a straight question.

    Apparently teaching nutritional information equates to forcing the child to eat a healthy balanced diet....

    No, it doesn't.

    Your question was, "Do I let my child eat McDonald's three times a day?"
    My answer was, "No, I educate them as regards nutrition. They then choose not to eat so much junk food."

    I really can not make it clearer than that. You are making the implication that I simply let them run wild and do/eat waht they want because it fits your argument despite the fact that said implication is complete hysterical bull****.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes, I try to go as many sundays as I can. I miss some but I make an effort to go regularly.


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    #66
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Your question was, "Do I let my child eat McDonald's three times a day?"
    My answer was, "No, I educate them as regards nutrition. They then choose not to eat so much junk food."I really can not make it clearer than that. You are making the implication that I simply let them run wild and do/eat waht they want.

    Nope, I asked would you cater for their choices if they choose differently to how you'd like them to choose... hypothetically. Apparently that's too hard a question for you to answer, because they'll only ever choose what you want them to choose.


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    #67
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    Siuin wrote: »
    prinz wrote: »
    It's pretty clear as it is. Parents are there to parent. Going to 16 may be a tad extreme but to say a child is there to "establish themselves as an individual" at the expense of good parenting is just codology.
    I really don't see how 'good parenting' involves forcing a child to sit through services when they simply do not want to be there. It's a pretty good way of making them resent the church and/or the parent, but you can't FORCE a child to believe in God or Catholic doctrine

    well i happen to treat people as individuals, and any of the priests in the church i go to anyway, to my knowledge, have never abused any children.

    you could say the same for any activity the child might be involved in, be it basketball, hurling, swimming, etc, even hospitals and schools!

    there have been numerous cases in many other areas where adults in a position of authority have abused that authority and abused children, its not just the catholic church. these people were pedophiles before they were priests, but becoming priests gave them easier access to children!

    what would you suggest, that we lock children away and have them grow up in ignorance? my child doesnt want to be in school some days, should i keep him out of school because he's decided he 'doesnt want to be there'? and have him grow up ignorant and uneducated?

    it is a parents duty to make these decisions for their children until their children are old enough and mature enough to understand the consequences of their decisions, and not just abandon something because they 'dont want to do it' or they 'dont want to be there.

    its called teaching them discipline and responsibility, so that when they're older and mature enough and disciplined enough to take responsibility for their own actions, they'll also have thought about and understood the possible consequences!


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    #68
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,107 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    prinz wrote: »
    Nope, I asked would you cater for their choices if they choose differently to how you'd like them to choose... hypothetically. Apparently that's too hard a question for you to answer, because they'll only ever choose what you want them to choose.

    If they give me good reasons for their choice, then yes I would. They could not, however, give me good reasons for eating in McDonald's all the time.

    If they gve me good reasons for going to mass, I would let them go. If they gave me good reasons afor not going to mass, I wouldn't foce them.

    This is simple really: they present the idea and the argument, I see if it has merit or not. If not, I show they where it does not. If they can persuade me otherwise, I am open to changing my mind.

    The idea that they choose what I want them to choose is what you WANT to think happens and not what actually happens. Assumption and bull**** again.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #69
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    This is simple really: they present the idea and the argument, I see if it has merit or not. If not, I show they where it does not. If they can persuade me otherwise, I am open to changing my mind.

    Lol, and before they can express themselves? Ah debating and argument techniques with a toddler. Wonderful.
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    The idea that they choose what I want them to choose is what you WANT to think happens and not what actually happens. Assumption and bull**** again.

    So you are saying when you teach them about nutrition you are completely neutral as to junk food.... :confused: You can't seem to make up your mind as to what your point is tbh.
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    No, I educate them as regards nutrition. They then choose not to eat so much junk food.


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    #70
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,107 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    prinz wrote: »
    Lol, and before they can express themselves? Ah debating and argument techniques with a toddler. Wonderful.
    Who said anything about a toddler?
    So you are saying when you teach them about nutrition you are completely neutral as to junk food.... :confused: You can't seem to make up your mind as to what your point is tbh.

    The phrase - which you yourself defined and then decided conveniently to leave out - was "breakfast, lunch and dinner". I am not complely neutral as to junk food three times a day. I also said clearly that I would like to see my child present such an argument.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #71
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    As someone of no religion I do not attend mass. The only exceptions are weddings and funerals, but that is to be there to support people through a harrowing (wedding) or joyous (funeral) occasion rather than any belief in or association with the church.


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    #72
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Who said anything about a toddler?

    We were dicussing children. Is it ok for you to make decisions on behalf of a toddler? A 5 year old? a 7 year old?
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    The phrase - which you yourself defined - you left out there is "three times a day". I am not complely neutral as to junk food three times a day.

    Of course not, and presumably if your hypothetical kids, in spite of all your good intentions and nutritional teaching, decided they wanted happy meals three times a day you'd say no.


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    #73
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,107 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    prinz wrote: »
    We were dicussing children. Is it ok for you to make decisions on behalf of a toddler? A 5 year old? a 7 year old?

    I do not believe 7 year old toddlers exist.

    Of course not, and presumably if your hypothetical kids, in spite of all your good intentions and nutritional teaching, decided they wanted happy meals three times a day you'd say no.

    Again, you're assuming what I said and not actually reading what I said.

    Child: "I want to do this because I like it."
    Me: "Why?"

    NOT

    Child: "I want to do this because I like it."
    Me: "Go for it."

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #74
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    I do not believe 7 year old toddlers exist..

    :pac: Yep. Well done indeed.


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    #75
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    xsiborg wrote: »
    what would you suggest, that we lock children away and have them grow up in ignorance? my child doesnt want to be in school some days, should i keep him out of school because he's decided he 'doesnt want to be there'? and have him grow up ignorant and uneducated?

    it is a parents duty to make these decisions for their children until their children are old enough and mature enough to understand the consequences of their decisions, and not just abandon something because they 'dont want to do it' or they 'dont want to be there.

    its called teaching them discipline and responsibility, so that when they're older and mature enough and disciplined enough to take responsibility for their own actions, they'll also have thought about and understood the possible consequences!

    School is not 'optional' until the age of 16-- attending the church or any other religious institution is. A child will not be 'ignorant' because they choose not to attend the church-- we are talking about forcing them to continue going after they already have a fair idea what the institution is about and have actively chosen not to participate.

    Parents make decisions, but religion is an extremely personal matter and faith in God or whatever it is they believe in should be the perogative of that individual alone, not their busy body parent forcing their beliefs upon the child.

    I fail to see what you teach a child about 'consequences' or 'discipline and responsibility' when you FORCE them to do something and give them no other option in the matter. Perhaps if they could choose not to go and actually had an alternative they might be able to assess the consequences of choosing for themselves. The only lesson I'd get from being forced to go is how to be a príck of a parent and make someone else do what I want because it's my own personal belief. If you can't trust a child to make decisions for themselves at 16 years old, then you have some serious issues which extend far beyond religion.

    But suit yourselves- keep forcing your children to go to mass and I'm sure you'll succeed in making them bitter and resentful towards both the beliefs you force upon them and you as a parent. Good night


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    #76
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,107 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    prinz wrote: »
    :pac: Yep. Well done indeed.

    Point...? **** it, you haven't made one yet, why do I think you would do it now. You have tried to portray me as saying somehing I didn't, you failed. You tried to portray me as someone who lets my kids do what I want, you failed. You tried twisting the argument into something that fit your point, you failed.

    As there is no logic to your last post and as you have resorted to pacman smilies, I assume you have nothing further to add. Good night.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #77
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    As there is no logic to your last post and as you have resorted to pacman smilies, I assume you have nothing further to add. Good night.

    A bit like "I do not believe 7 year old toddlers exist".... I resorted to pacman because anything more would heve legitimised the stupidity of that attempt at being smart.


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    #78
    alphabeat
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭alphabeat


    no i dont go ,

    there much better produced fairy tales in the cinema

    and who wants to have Benny the Nonce , Bishop McBugger and Fr Fiddler tell them how to live ?


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    #79
    Posy
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 27,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭Posy


    Nope.


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    #80
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    Siuin wrote: »
    School is not 'optional' until the age of 16-- attending the church or any other religious institution is. A child will not be 'ignorant' because they choose not to attend the church-- we are talking about forcing them to continue going after they already have a fair idea what the institution is about and have actively chosen not to participate.

    Parents make decisions, but religion is an extremely personal matter and faith in God or whatever it is they believe in should be the perogative of that individual alone, not their busy body parent forcing their beliefs upon the child.

    I fail to see what you teach a child about 'consequences' or 'discipline and responsibility' when you FORCE them to do something and give them no other option in the matter. Perhaps if they could choose not to go and actually had an alternative they might be able to assess the consequences of choosing for themselves. The only lesson I'd get from being forced to go is how to be a príck of a parent and make someone else do what I want because it's my own personal belief. If you can't trust a child to make decisions for themselves at 16 years old, then you have some serious issues which extend far beyond religion.

    But suit yourselves- keep forcing your children to go to mass and I'm sure you'll succeed in making them bitter and resentful towards both the beliefs you force upon them and you as a parent. Good night

    when my child is a teenager and religion is the LEAST of their worries, they're going to hate me anyway, i take that as fact already.

    i dont want to be my child's best friend, i am their parent. i will force my beliefs on them because i want them to do well in life, not grow up thinking that they can just abandon something because they cant be ársed with it.

    its quite possible you know to make religion interesting for a child, and use it as a means to calibrate their moral compass so to speak.

    its interesting too that you mention how school is not optional up until 16 because i wanted to leave school at 16 to do an apprenticeship to join my father in his business. he was absolutely insistent that there was no way i was quitting school without a leaving cert, and no questions asked!

    best thing he ever did tbh, among of course the many other great things he did for me. he was a tough bástard and regularly resorted to physical discipline, but he kept me in line and taught me the meaning of respect, duty, and responsibility.

    i absolutely hated him at the time for it, but i can see now that he did at the time what he thought was right, and i didnt turn out a scumbag, and i can only do what i believe is right by my child. i by no means think im the perfect parent either, but then anyone who hasnt got their head up their own hole will tell you there is no such thing as the perfect parent, nor the perfect way to be a parent, but one thing i can reassure you is that the last people i'll let influence my parenting decisions are a small group of anonymous internet hipsters with a hard-on for slating those who follow the catholic faith at every opportunity.

    these threads are becoming a bit too mainstream in AH now. really i think its time for some people to move on and pracice what THEY preach- live and let live!


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    #81
    J Cheever Loophole
    Registered Users Posts: 967 ✭✭✭J Cheever Loophole


    Sarky wrote: »
    So you're just going to spite the prods? Awesome.


    I'll confess that in my initial response, I was irked by what I feel is an unfair inference in this question.


    However, given the 'thanks' that that question is now accumulating, I assume that others here, on the basis of what I wrote, see my attendance at Mass as a sectarian act on my own part.


    Reluctantly therefore (because it is an unfair inference), I feel I will have to clarify my position. I am not sectarian and count myself lucky to have grown up in a mixed area. I did know people who were killed because they were Catholics and their deaths brought home to me the importance of my faith and renewed my determination to keep it as something of value to me. Hence what I said in my original post.


    I have to say though Sarky that you picked up on one point only, of a number of points that I made around my attendance at Mass, and concentrated on that single point, and drew an erroneous inference, despite the fact that you don't know me.

    Prejudiced or what?


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    #82
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Or maybe I didn't have an issue with the rest. There's no need to jump to conclusions like that. People will think you're prejudiced.


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    #83
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,107 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    prinz wrote: »
    A bit like "I do not believe 7 year old toddlers exist".... I resorted to pacman because anything more would heve legitimised the stupidity of that attempt at being smart.
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Point...? **** it, you haven't made one yet, why do I think you would do it now. You have tried to portray me as saying somehing I didn't, you failed. You tried to portray me as someone who lets my kids do what I want, you failed. You tried twisting the argument into something that fit your point, you failed.

    .

    I notice you have no porblem with the bold...?

    Anyway: I was talking about children. You were talking about children. All of a sudden, you decided we were talking about toddlers. You specificed, 7 and 5 year old toddlers. A 7 year old or a 5 year old is not regarded as a toddler. Regardless, I tailor the pattern to suit the age. And, just before you go off on another one, this this not mean letting certain ages do what they want.

    Back on topic(ish). I would not take my child (or toddler) to mass regularly for the same reason that I would not take my child (or toddler) to McD's regularly. It's not my job as a parent to force something on them that could well turn out to be detremental to their health. If, at some point, they want to persuade me to let them go to mass/McD's I will listen to their argument and, if it has merit, take them or make arrangemetns for them to be taken. It's unlikley multiple fast food requests will have merit, which is why I will teach them about nutrition. If it's mass (or any other religious service) in question, then I'll listen to what they know about the religion involved. It does not mean waiting until they are 16.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #84
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    Thursday* and Sunday.

    *my mother is in a nursing home and they attend Mass on Thursday afternoon


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    #85
    Quality
    Registered Users Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭Quality


    dpe wrote: »
    LOL. Since most people in Ireland don't have much choice about going to catholic school I may see a slight flaw in your argument. And while it may have been your effort to get them christened, they probably didn't have much say in the matter, and yet strangely they pay the price for all your "hard work".


    Fortunately my father was more enlightened. As soon as me and my brother pointed out the more self-evidently insane bits of the bible and pronounced the whole thing stupid (aged about 7), we got a pat on the back and didn't have to go any more. He later told us if we hadn't figured it out by the time we were 10 he was going to disown us.

    My kids don't mind going to mass with me and never complain or moan. Our church is full of children on a sunday.my husband and I are different religions. We made our decision to raise our children rc, as I was the one willing to involve religion in their lives.

    There are plenty of choices of non denominational schools in our area, so yes options could have been made.

    So I take it your enlightened father didn't allow you to take holy communion or confirmation? Really interested to hear this part.


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    #86
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    I haven't been to Mass for many, many decades, but from what I remember of it, it's a bit like a play. However, the same character gets killed every time and the ending is always the same, so it beats me why people keep on going back.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #87
    kfallon
    Registered Users Posts: 25,775 ✭✭✭✭kfallon


    Have to go today for a communion :(


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    #88
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Yes.


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    #89
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    I attend mass once a year; it's a commemorative mass for someone. That's the sum total of my dealings with the RCC.

    Also: if your kid can express a clear preference on something which doesn't carry any actual weight outside itself, why on earth would you force them to continue? Going to mass doesn't do a damn thing to inculcate ethics that can't be done outside of religion entirely, and it's arguable that it does more harm than good; by associating good and evil so closely with concepts of supernatural punishment, you run the risk of a subsequent conversion to atheism destroying the basis of their moral code. This is nothing to do with McDonald's food: that's an objectively bad choice of food. There's absolutely nothing objectively bad about not wanting to attend mass; you might as well declare all their T-shirts will be white until they turn sixteen no matter how much they protest.

    Last of all: if your kid is becoming agnostic, the absolute surest way of accelerating the process and triggering full-blown atheism is to force them to attend mass for several more years. A fourteen-year-old doubter left to their own devices may return to religion; a fourteen-year-old doubter forced to attend mass will simply be given more and better reasons with every reading to abandon belief altogether.


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    #90
    dpe
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭dpe


    Quality wrote: »
    My kids don't mind going to mass with me and never complain or moan. Our church is full of children on a sunday.my husband and I are different religions. We made our decision to raise our children rc, as I was the one willing to involve religion in their lives.

    There are plenty of choices of non denominational schools in our area, so yes options could have been made.

    So I take it your enlightened father didn't allow you to take holy communion or confirmation? Really interested to hear this part.

    I was raised in England so communion and confirmation aren't the bloodsports they are here, so no, I've neither taken communion or been confirmed. Once we'd dropped out of Sunday school it was simply irrelevant, there was no "not allow" involved, since we'd turned our backs on the whole process ourselves. When my kids get to that age here they'll have the choice as well, the difference here being peer pressure because its done in school, and the fact that kids here are routinely bribed to take communion.


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    #91
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    dpe wrote: »
    I was raised in England so communion and confirmation aren't the bloodsports they are here, so no, I've neither taken communion or been confirmed. Once we'd dropped out of Sunday school it was simply irrelevant, there was no "not allow" involved, since we'd turned our backs on the whole process ourselves. When my kids get to that age here they'll have the choice as well, the difference here being peer pressure because its done in school, and the fact that kids here are routinely bribed to take communion.

    bloodsport?? bribed to take communion??

    seriously? :D


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