M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

Chris_533976 · 26-05-2009 4:35pm

Thanks a mil, but I bet it'll be ignored or you'll get a photocopied response

Amtmann · 26-05-2009 4:42pm

Spacetweek, I feel you would have elicited a better response if you had told the NRA that they have a subconscious sexual attraction to roundabouts.

Zoney · 26-05-2009 5:31pm

Been some time since I contacted the NRA, I think I might send an email in a similar vein. One point I would make is that despite a double-stack roundabout providing grade-separated M17<->M18 traffic, that will not in fact be a priority flow for traffic at that junction.

BluntGuy · 26-05-2009 5:38pm

Just for the heck of it, I'm going to send an e-mail as well, and I encourage everyone else with in an interest in this to do so too.

While I doubt they're going to change the design, this is the only stage in which there is a remote possibly of that happening.

You won't get a decent response, I've e-mailed the NRA many-a-time and gotten back nothing - just something copied and pasted from their policy documents... but if more people lump the pressure on, we might see results.

Amtmann · 26-05-2009 5:46pm

I agree. Multiple emails are required, and, indeed, perhaps a letter or two to some Galway or national newspapers? The Irish Independent would be certain to publish it.
Chris had a marvelous letter a while back in the local Galway paper relating to the outer bypass and proposals to improve public transport in the city.

BluntGuy · 26-05-2009 6:15pm

Just fired them off an e-mail myself... asked them about the motorway service areas as well.

As I said, I encourage more to do the same.

invincibleirish · 26-05-2009 6:31pm

On the MSAs, Peter Malone was on George Hooks show today talking bout the M8 and when asked about the MSAs his reply stressed the state of Government finances and their impact on the NRAs own plans.

BluntGuy · 26-05-2009 6:40pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

On the MSAs, Peter Malone was on George Hooks show today talking bout the M8 and when asked about the MSAs his reply stressed the state of Government finances and their impact on the NRAs own plans.

What I don't get about the MSAs (and I said this in my e-mail) is this:

The NRA recently announced five magical PPP schemes which pretty much cover most of the major outstanding road projects to be built under Transport 21.

The MSAs are also a PPP package, one that has been around since 2006/2007. How can you cancel such an important PPP package yet at the same time introduce five new ones?

That's what I don't get.

invincibleirish · 26-05-2009 7:18pm

I would guess that if you take consensus style FF politics into consideration, instead of MSAs alternatives like letting the free market take care of the problem (like the McDonalds on the Cashel BP), or highlighting the amenities available in the towns bypassed who benefited from passing trade, then you can fill the critical need & keep constituents and interest holders/party members happy.

Tech3 · 26-05-2009 8:42pm

While I agree that this interchange is sub standard I wont be emailing the NRA. The main reason is that I really dont want to see any delays in this project. Its due for construction next year which is still unbearable.

This stretch(along with N7 and g-c) will save up to an hour off a commute from Limerick - Sligo alone. It is needed and looking into the future counts for the M17 it will be feasible. It might be an extra 20km from Tuam-Galway but there wont be much time saving on the current N17. Also adding that the surface of the current N17(Tuam-Galway) is now becoming very poor that the new motorway will be used by the majority of those commuters.

3 level stack and a motorway is better than no motorway and huge congested single carriageway traffic levels in Claregalway, Tuam and time wasting near Oranmore. This is needed now no matter what interchange is going to be constructed.

Amtmann · 26-05-2009 9:07pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

On the MSAs, Peter Malone was on George Hooks show today talking bout the M8 and when asked about the MSAs his reply stressed the state of Government finances and their impact on the NRAs own plans.

Can someone post a link to this if it has been podcasted?

Chris_533976 · 26-05-2009 9:10pm

Furet wrote: »

I agree. Multiple emails are required, and, indeed, perhaps a letter or two to some Galway or national newspapers? The Irish Independent would be certain to publish it.
Chris had a marvelous letter a while back in the local Galway paper relating to the outer bypass and proposals to improve public transport in the city.

Thanks

I was in such a rage when I wrote that thing; the absolutey idiotic, uninformed drivel spouted by a cyclist from the paper the week before.

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/6737

mysterious · 26-05-2009 10:07pm

Furet wrote: »

Spacetweek, I feel you would have elicited a better response if you had told the NRA that they have a subconscious sexual attraction to roundabouts.

LMFAO.....

Furet thank you for this post:D

The ultimate sexual fantasy, is roundabouts with traffic lights on them. They are just feasty.

And an upgrade is more traffic lights. Repeat this role model, and you get an M50 mess everytime!

Something is not right here, NRA crew some psychoanayalis done to their minds. Technically to see if they actually house a brain in their skull.

I see they have scrapped those ****ty two pier bridges. So I will leave this message on a positive note.

mysterious · 26-05-2009 10:11pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Hilarious post! Full of inaccuracies as usual, but it's hilarious, I'll give you that.

Roundabout junctions between motorways are extremely common in the UK. Whether they should be is another matter, but there's definitely the standard. We're erring by copying that standard.

They are loathed in the UK by roadfans, but not by planners.

I'm just about to fire the NRA an email about this; I hope everyone else does. Bitching on this thread achieves nothing.

They are plain black and white FACTS. Spacetweek. I didn't want to go into so much detail, as it would seem make a laughing stock out the NRA.

I just dont have it in me to do thaaaaaaaaaaaat.:D

Oh we know they are extremely common. I don't mind RO, on local roads with local interchanges. Not on a motorways where 3/4 routes converge. I hate 3 stacks these schemes are not abandoned in the UK, because you can't upgrade these interchanges into full free flow unless you actually knock the interchange completely. The N24/M9 vomit onto a roundabout to lamp themselves onto the M25 (not london,, but in Waterford just before this mega bridge)

mysterious · 26-05-2009 10:22pm

MYOB wrote: »

Both mainlines are clear on a three level stack but the only way to handle high capacity on a TLS is traffic lights on the roundabout. This shouldn't affect either mainline unless traffic backs up...

The planners build interchanges with a lack of foresight and imagination,

In the back of their BUBsconcious, they planned to have traffic backing onto the motorway, cus of these lovely new spanking lights they lamped onto the new sophiscated ROUNDABOUT they just amazingly slapped onto the interchange. Traffic backs up.

Voila plan completed.

Past Turnpike at Redcow, I was just sitting there for like 15minutes thinking do traffic engineers design traffic bottlenecks in mind? LIke when upgrading roads, do they actually plan roads so they make an ass out of the upgrade so there will be gridlock.

I'm seriously curious, sitting at Turnpike for 15minutes today made me think about this when usually I have so little time on my hands.

"Irish road builder" has a degree in chemistry......

Is now a road engineer, for the corrupt Dublin city council. Decides to resurface a road. He said it will look lovely of course. They built this wonderful road, trees, new lighting and pavement. Its just wonderful.

Then a new crowd of Irish neanderthals come along, and dig it up the next week.

Oh it was the phone lines
week after that
NTL cable, they needed to lamp a few wires in there.
Week after that
New phone empire takes over and kicks eircoms ass and puts its wires in there
A week later (10 years late) Broadband comes in a drills the ****e out of the road.

This is a true story. I dont read many true stories of this nature. It seems to happen all over the country.

Irish planners and their chemistry desgrees. sigh..... where would be if they didnt **** up so much.

invincibleirish · 26-05-2009 10:32pm

Furet wrote: »

Can someone post a link to this if it has been podcasted?

I scanned the Newstalk podcast directory & Hook show page here

http://newstalk.ie/newstalk/programmes/6/the-right-hook.html

But they only have specific segments podcasted. You can catch it again sometime round 5am when Newstalk repeat their content from the previous day through the night. Good luck with that!.

Tech3 · 04-06-2009 2:51pm

Here is an email which I got back from the NRA in regards to the N17/N18 PPP, the €700 million is expensive which I thought would be cheaper:

The overall construction price of the Gort to Tuam PPP scheme (inclusive of design costs and land costs) is in the region of €700 million. In relation to private funding for the new PPP schemes, the current market conditions make the raising of private funding difficult. However, PPP deals are still being concluded around Europe. In the case of the Irish PPP road schemes, these deal will not conclude until about Q3/Q4 of next year at which stage the financial markets may be in a better place.

Sponge Bob · 04-06-2009 6:02pm

tech2 wrote: »

Here is an email which I got back from the NRA in regards to the N17/N18 PPP, the €700 million is expensive which I thought would be cheaper:

"The overall construction price of the Gort to Tuam PPP scheme (inclusive of design costs and land costs) is in the region of €700 million. In relation to private funding for the new PPP schemes, the current market conditions make the raising of private funding difficult. However, PPP deals are still being concluded around Europe. In the case of the Irish PPP road schemes, these deals will not conclude until about Q3/Q4 of next year at which stage the financial markets may be in a better place."

I told ye ages ago that PPP schemes were dead at present owing to there being no money available ( save at usurious rates ) . Some people around here seemed to have a problem with the basic arithmetic behind that .

The statement above is important , the cost of PPP financing is so great that even schemes like Newlands will not get going until 2011 ( based on a deal negotiated in late 2010 ) despite all the other elements such as Design and CPO having been completed ages ago .

No schemes will start in 2010 as in none whatsoever anywhere ...well maybe Longford but I doubt even that :cool:

It will be as much as the NRA can do to find the cash to keep the impetus going for design/archaeology and engineering testing on the N20 route as well as fill all the potholes they are landed with since Dempsey gave them Regional as well as National Roads in the past few months .

westtip · 24-06-2009 10:29am

NRA should get its website up to date http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/GalwayCountyCouncil/N18GorttoCrusheen/SchemeName,15482,en.html

According to them they are only at the tender stage - I was down in Shannon last week travelling from Sligo and glad to see this section is moving on - wish the same could be said for Claregalway BP, The Atlantic Corridor when completed will make a huge difference to the west - and the bullet trains on the WRC will be errr......empty.

Tech3 · 24-06-2009 11:03am

westtip wrote: »

The Gort-Tuam PPP when completed will make a huge difference to the west

I corrected your comment. Thats the only realistic scheme that will go ahead in the next 3 years that will greatly improve infrastructure in the west.

Also the Galway bypass whenever it is approved to construct the whole bypass will be a massive improvement on the current congested mess .

westtip · 26-06-2009 10:21pm

tech2 wrote: »

I corrected your comment. Thats the only realistic scheme that will go ahead in the next 3 years that will greatly improve infrastructure in the west.

Also the Galway bypass whenever it is approved to construct the whole bypass will be a massive improvement on the current congested mess .

Think I'm gettin my road schemes confused - alas I agree with you I am not counting on the Atlantic corridor remotely coming in on timing of T21, mores the pity.

Chris_533976 · 27-06-2009 12:14pm

Gort - Tuam will be the second biggest scheme. Its mainline (if you count the 2+2 Tuam bypass with the motorway part) is longer than N6 Galway - Ballinasloe and only just a little shorter than the M3.

black47 · 06-07-2009 8:42pm

glineli wrote: »

They are working down the Cursheen end til 9 pm these days with the good weather, its great!!!!

http://www.nra.ie/PublicPrivatePartnership/SecondPPPRoadsProgramme/

See link to June '09 newsletters relating to second batch of PPP schemes on nra website. First newsletter shows proposed schemes. Note recent omission of all proposed N20 motorway works in favour of schemes on N11. When push comes to shove the east rules as usual!

Second letter shows proposed consortia for Gort Tuam ppp. Interesting how Wills and Siac didn't go in together again considering the unbelievable progress on Gort/Crusheen

Tech3 · 06-07-2009 9:20pm

black47 wrote: »

http://www.nra.ie/PublicPrivatePartnership/SecondPPPRoadsProgramme/

See link to June '09 newsletters relating to second batch of PPP schemes on nra website. First newsletter shows proposed schemes. Note recent omission of all proposed N20 motorway works in favour of schemes on N11. When push comes to shove the east rules as usual!

Second letter shows proposed consortia for Gort Tuam ppp. Interesting how Wills and Siac didn't go in together again considering the unbelievable progress on Gort/Crusheen

Thanks for that black47.

So in summary the N17/N18 is still the first PPP in line to go ahead and the M20 is being pushed back even further the Galway bypass is now ahead of it.

On the four Consortia shortlisted for the N17/N18 scheme, the best option IMO is Direct Route which includes Roadbridge, Strabag, Sisk and Lagan. I would be happy to have them finishing it well ahead of schedule.

Tech3 · 21-07-2009 11:42pm

Dempsey seems to be confident of the N17/N18 scheme starting construction next year from reading this PDF recently:

http://www.westparkshannon.com/Userfiles/090619-ministers-speech-to-atlantic-way-19-6-09.pdf

Good progress has already been made with this new PPP programme and the N17/N18 Gort-Tuam project is already at procurement stage and you can expect to see construction next year

Another broken promise in the pipeline perhaps

Sponge Bob · 22-07-2009 12:24am

Dempsey , Hah!

Navan was supposed to have a railway line by 2004 wasn't it ....according to Dempsey !

westtip · 22-07-2009 1:19pm

tech2 wrote: »

Dempsey seems to be confident of the N17/N18 scheme starting construction next year from reading this PDF recently:

http://www.westparkshannon.com/Userfiles/090619-ministers-speech-to-atlantic-way-19-6-09.pdf

Another broken promise in the pipeline perhaps

Probably - interesting speech he was in the shannon region and talked about Ports, Air travel and roads - funny how he didn't mention the u no W-O-T (sic), must put that link on the good old WRC thread!

Chris_533976 · 04-08-2009 11:06am

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Whats happening at that junction.

Is it basically the M6 running accross the M18 with the M18 becoming the M17 once past the M6 ?

It'll be a three level stack (M6 bottom level, roundabout 2nd level and M18 becoming M17 on the top level). Free flow slips on all four sides and an argument about how a better junction should be built

BluntGuy · 04-08-2009 11:14am

Chris_533976 wrote: »

It'll be a three level stack (M6 bottom level, roundabout 2nd level and M18 becoming M17 on the top level). Free flow slips on all four sides and an argument about how a better junction should be built

Now that the MSA is gone, is there a possiblity they'll replace it.

Honestly, the mental image of a massive roundabout in the middle of a field with cars pointlessly circling round it to get to their respective motorway is a torturously embarassing thought.

There is no justification for such a pathetically feeble design to be used any more.

Chris_533976 · 04-08-2009 11:51am

BluntGuy wrote: »

Now that the MSA is gone, is there a possiblity they'll replace it.

The PPP is design & build so I guess they have the option, however without requiring more CPOs and possibly another EIS it would be a big delay in designing anything else (except a Cloverleaf, which Irish drivers could never be able to handle).

M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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