Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

bmaxi · 16-05-2013 11:11am

cdebru wrote: »

Then the workers there should organise shouldn't they ? If you don't organise then you get pissed on that is the lesson more people should learn it.

I don't disagree with the concept that workers need to organise for their own protection, I've been a union member for most of my working life, even, at one time a shop steward.
However we have to be realistic, Government, driven by the Troika, have made it clear there are going to be cuts in the Public service, these can come in the form of cuts to terms and conditions or in cuts to jobs, the drivers in BE have to decide which is preferable.
It's common knowledge in the developed world, that we cannot continue in the way we have been, Europe is losing jobs to the near and far East at an enormous rate. It is not an argument to say that wages and conditions in these countries are abysmal, the counter argument is that wages and conditions here are too good. All this will change as their economies grow richer and their governments realise that education will enrich them even more, this is already happening in China and India. Educated workers will not accept the conditions and wages paid today, it is a process of equalisation in the world, although where it will eventually lead is unclear.
It is incumbent on trade union members to keep as many people working in this country as possible, even if that means taking a smaller slice of a diminishing cake.

devnull · 16-05-2013 11:44am

To be fair to everyone though - nobody speaks for everyone on this board, be that SandyfordGuy or others - everyone has a right to have their say from both sides.

Hilly Bill · 16-05-2013 1:51pm

cdebru wrote: »

Where did I say anyone was going to lose 10K, show me the post ?

if you are just going to lie and make stuff up not much point in debating with you.

You don't know any private sector company where people get sudsidised food ? seriously ? maybe you should get out more.

I created an example to explain to you how it works, as obviously you have no idea.

The company is not losing money, the government cut the PSO and the management is trying to make up the difference by cutting staff wages. So effectively you want the workers to subsidise the PSO. This in a company where they have already stripped out 30 million in costs since the downturn by agreements between the unions and the company.

And what next year when the government again cut the PSO again, back to the well again and bleed some more out of the workers ?

I sometimes think the best thing that could happen is the end of the semi state transport sector because a private company would tell the government were to go if they demanded a 25% cut in payments for the same service.

The same private company would also tell its employees where to go if they went on strike over a meal alowance.

Hilly Bill · 16-05-2013 2:04pm

cdebru wrote: »

Where did I say anyone was going to lose 10K, show me the post ?

if you are just going to lie and make stuff up not much point in debating with you.

You don't know any private sector company where people get sudsidised food ? seriously ? maybe you should get out more.

I created an example to explain to you how it works, as obviously you have no idea.

The company is not losing money, the government cut the PSO and the management is trying to make up the difference by cutting staff wages. So effectively you want the workers to subsidise the PSO. This in a company where they have already stripped out 30 million in costs since the downturn by agreements between the unions and the company.

And what next year when the government again cut the PSO again, back to the well again and bleed some more out of the workers ?

I sometimes think the best thing that could happen is the end of the semi state transport sector because a private company would tell the government were to go if they demanded a 25% cut in payments for the same service.

cdebru wrote: »

And there are people in Bangladesh working for 10 dollars a week so should we tell those on the minimum wage here they have it cushy as well?

people like you won't be happy till everyone is on the minimum wage or has the same ****ty conditions to work in as you apparently do. It is called the race to the bottom. And quite frankly it is disgusting.

Take money out of peoples pockets all you are doing is ****ing this country up more. Austerity does not work it just makes the majority of people poorer.

Thats exactly it.

Vic_08 · 16-05-2013 2:17pm

bk wrote: »

It isn't that they can make 200k a day, it is that even with a strike going, they still have many costs that have to be paid, while no revenue is coming in.

For instance electricity and security staff for all bus stations and depots. Insurance, management salaries (they aren't on strike), advertising, contract cleaners, etc.

200k a day, that is 78 million a year expenditure excluding running costs for the entire fleet and wages for the majority of staff. There is a good place to look for reasons for the financial crisis the company is in.

cdebru · 16-05-2013 3:01pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The same private company would also tell its employees where to go if they went on strike over a meal alowance.

They went on strike over a meal allowance ? Really so the meal allowance is gone now, but they kept their shift pay. Maybe you should have a word with the NBRU and Siptu and let them know they have made a mistake, since you know the strike was over a meal allowance.

cdebru · 16-05-2013 3:07pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

200k a day, that is 78 million a year expenditure excluding running costs for the entire fleet and wages for the majority of staff. There is a good place to look for reasons for the financial crisis the company is in.

Exactly, which is what I said before trim the wastage in the company, then come looking for reductions in staff wages if you are still in trouble. No BE management want to keep the sponsorship of the womens football league, christmas on ice, christmas panto, the cork city marathon for example and cut their staff wages first.

The place is top heavy with Regional, Area, Divisional, Operations managers, but of course turkeys don't vote for christmas so they carefully avoid having anyone point the finger and asking are all these managers really needed.

Hilly Bill · 16-05-2013 3:22pm

cdebru wrote: »

They went on strike over a meal allowance ? Really so the meal allowance is gone now, but they kept their shift pay. Maybe you should have a word with the NBRU and Siptu and let them know they have made a mistake, since you know the strike was over a meal allowance.

It was part of it, you said it yourself. They made a mistake of going on strike in the first place.

Hilly Bill · 16-05-2013 3:27pm

cdebru wrote: »

Exactly, which is what I said before trim the wastage in the company, then come looking for reductions in staff wages if you are still in trouble. No BE management want to keep the sponsorship of the womens football league, christmas on ice, christmas panto, the cork city marathon for example and cut their staff wages first.

The place is top heavy with Regional, Area, Divisional, Operations managers, but of course turkeys don't vote for christmas so they carefully avoid having anyone point the finger and asking are all these managers really needed.

What if they decided that they had too many drivers and office staff, would you still agree with trimming the wastage in the company or are drivers exempt from this or would you be out on strike again?
From what i gather is that you are all in favour of cuts in the company so long it doesnt effect you.

cdebru · 16-05-2013 3:36pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What if they decided that they had too many drivers and office staff, would you still agree with trimming the wastage in the company or are drivers exempt from this or would you be out on strike again?
From what i gather is that you are all in favour of cuts in the company so long it doesnt effect you.

They did that in 2010, 250 staff went mostly drivers.

cdebru · 16-05-2013 3:42pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It was part of it, you said it yourself. They made a mistake of going on strike in the first place.

It was part of a labour court recommendation that was rejected, but you are wrong to suggest that the meal allowance of 7 euro that only applies to a very limited number of drivers was the reason there was a strike. It sounds good when you are trying to ridicule people but you know it is not true.

I said there should not have been a strike, the first place should have been the courts to injunct the company for breaching their contracts. But I firmly believe this whole thing has been an orchestrated farce between the unions and the management and Leo. It was just about positioning people to get them to agree to something.

daheff · 16-05-2013 3:43pm

bk wrote: »

It isn't that they can make 200k a day, it is that even with a strike going, they still have many costs that have to be paid, while no revenue is coming in.

For instance electricity and security staff for all bus stations and depots. Insurance, management salaries (they aren't on strike), advertising, contract cleaners, etc.

But they would have those outgoings with or without a strike. The strike hasnt cost them 400k over 2 days on overheads. I'd guess its 400k net income (After drivers exp and fuel).

Kumsheen · 16-05-2013 3:46pm

Some details emerging
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/bus-%C3%A9ireann-chief-s-pay-to-fall-by-5-000-under-deal-with-unions-1.1395878

"The pay of the chief executive of Bus Éireann Martin Nolan is to fall from €189,000 to €184,000

Overall, executives at the State-owned transport company will have to contribute around €1 million in pay and non-pay savings

Fees paid to directors at the State-owned transport company are also to be cut by 20 per cent

For drivers the new agreement on overtime rates and premium payments will be the same as those set out in the Labour Court recommendation which was rejected by staff"

cdebru · 16-05-2013 4:31pm

Kumsheen wrote: »

Some details emerging
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/bus-%C3%A9ireann-chief-s-pay-to-fall-by-5-000-under-deal-with-unions-1.1395878

"The pay of the chief executive of Bus Éireann Martin Nolan is to fall from €189,000 to €184,000

Overall, executives at the State-owned transport company will have to contribute around €1 million in pay and non-pay savings

Fees paid to directors at the State-owned transport company are also to be cut by 20 per cent

For drivers the new agreement on overtime rates and premium payments will be the same as those set out in the Labour Court recommendation which was rejected by staff"

So BE were looking to save about 4% of their wages bill and Martin Nolan is giving up 2.6% of his massive salary. Wow really leading by example there.

300,000 in wage cuts from executives and 700,000 in productivity, what a pile of ****. Executives will work 3 hours longer a week and this is a saving ? How will Martin Nolan sitting behind his desk for an extra 35 minutes a day generate a saving ? Do they have to pay a replacement CEO overtime when he goes home early normally ?

Victor · 16-05-2013 7:38pm

Victor wrote: »

Analysis of the PSO indicated it was too high, so it was cut.

cdebru wrote: »

Analysis by who ?

From here: http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1358351390-Annual-Report-2011.pdf Page 38 note 18. Net Surplus/(deficit) by activity

Deficit before PSO payment €42,948,000
PSO payment €43,403,000
Overpayment €3,522,000

Hilly Bill · 16-05-2013 9:21pm

cdebru wrote: »

They did that in 2010, 250 staff went mostly drivers.

Was there a strike then?

cdebru · 16-05-2013 9:40pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Was there a strike then?

No there wasn't.

Hilly Bill · 16-05-2013 9:43pm

cdebru wrote: »

No there wasn't.

So you will strike over the loss of a few quid but not when a few of your fellow workers get let go? It says a lot really.

gbob · 16-05-2013 9:49pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So you will strike over the loss of a few quid but not when a few of your fellow workers get let go? It says a lot really.

It was voluntary severance, nobody was forced out.

It worked then it could work again.

cdebru · 16-05-2013 10:51pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So you will strike over the loss of a few quid but not when a few of your fellow workers get let go? It says a lot really.

I don't work for BE and the redundancies were voluntary.

Victor · 16-05-2013 11:17pm

end of the road wrote: »

...

really? is it? so making thick comments is backbone?

what backbone have they showed? saying they would rather a strike situation rather then a deal that won't make savings? a thick stupid comment from somebody who should know better.

...

No need for comments like this.

Moderator

cdebru · 16-05-2013 11:36pm

Victor wrote: »

From here: http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1358351390-Annual-Report-2011.pdf Page 38 note 18. Net Surplus/(deficit) by activity

Deficit before PSO payment €42,948,000
PSO payment €43,403,000
Overpayment €3,522,000

Nonsense you know that is not why it was cut, and you are also fully aware that the subvention in Ireland is one of lowest in Europe

If you seen the note on the report it clearly states that the overpayment should be viewed in the context of the underpayment in previous years (ie 2008 over 6 million deficit and 2009 nearly 8 million deficit.)

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2012-12-07a.5

The subvention was cut not based on any analysis but just as part of the general cuts the government are making, hence the Minister for Transport is able to announce his plans for future cuts in the subvention ( or are they based on analysis he will do in the future?)

_Kaiser_ · 17-05-2013 7:45am

Did I correctly on the radio this morning that the CIE companies are going to apply for ANOTHER fare increase by July??!

That's Irish logic that is.. rather than cutting the inefficiencies and laying off staff, let's ask a dwindling user base to stump up the cash instead.

Just another argument for the car really, especially if it comes soon after this latest disruption.

Vahevala · 17-05-2013 8:31am

It is always the passengers that suffers, it is the only way CIE know. losing money = put the fare up. At the rate they are going, they will have no passengers left :rolleyes:

kingshankly · 17-05-2013 9:16am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So you will strike over the loss of a few quid but not when a few of your fellow workers get let go? It says a lot really.

You should really do you homework before you post

daheff · 17-05-2013 9:21am

Vahevala wrote: »

It is always the passengers that suffers, it is the only way CIE know. losing money = put the fare up. At the rate they are going, they will have no passengers left :rolleyes:

i've just renewed my annual train/bus ticket (because i need both to get to work -train only goes to heuston i go to city centre

). 1400 euros. Last year it was 1250.

if they increase it again then its CHEAPER to travel by car and more convenient.

so tell me again why we have public transport??

EricPraline · 17-05-2013 9:37am

So more fare increases on the way. More short term can kicking. As usual, in the battle between management and staff/unions, the customer suffers.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/passengers-face-further-fare-hikes-in-bid-to-save-cie-firms-29274118.html

So once again, fare increase -> falling passenger numbers -> further losses -> repeat.

n97 mini · 17-05-2013 10:04am

EricPraline wrote: »

So more fare increases on the way. More short term can kicking. As usual, in the battle between management and staff/unions, the customer suffers.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/passengers-face-further-fare-hikes-in-bid-to-save-cie-firms-29274118.html

So once again, fare increase -> falling passenger numbers -> further losses -> repeat.

And with the lack of competition...

Padraig Mor · 17-05-2013 1:04pm

Is it just me, or did the unions agree to pretty much the same "no way" cuts as before, with some token farthings taken from the top brass?

cdebru · 17-05-2013 1:22pm

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Is it just me, or did the unions agree to pretty much the same "no way" cuts as before, with some token farthings taken from the top brass?

It is not just you, the unions allowed the CEO to take a 2.6% pay cut and pass off him agreeing to work an extra 3 hours a week as a saving.
Only managers earning over 100,000 take any cut so a manager on 99,000 will be unaffected while an employee on 33k will have their take home pay cut.

And the unions have never even raised the free travel scheme that is killing the entire group.

ixoy · 17-05-2013 2:12pm

cdebru wrote: »

Only managers earning over 100,000 take any cut so a manager on 99,000 will be unaffected while an employee on 33k will have their take home pay cut.

Meanwhile those in the executive branch near the bottom of the pay scale (which is below 40k) are taking a pay cut and having to work the extra hours. Some of the driver's savings are at the expense of those earning earning less than the average driver.

LXFlyer · 17-05-2013 2:38pm

cdebru wrote: »

It is not just you, the unions allowed the CEO to take a 2.6% pay cut and pass off him agreeing to work an extra 3 hours a week as a saving.
Only managers earning over 100,000 take any cut so a manager on 99,000 will be unaffected while an employee on 33k will have their take home pay cut.

And the unions have never even raised the free travel scheme that is killing the entire group.

For goodness sakes no company CEO works any form of standard hours, nor do their key managers.

CEOs are pretty much on call 24/7 and if you're seriously suggesting he and his CFO and other senior managers look at the clock having done their contracted number of hours and say "ok time to go home" you really are living on another planet.

It doesn't work like that - you go home when the job is done. You don't get paid overtime - the higher salaries reflect the responsibilities that go with the job.

cdebru · 17-05-2013 3:53pm

lxflyer wrote: »

For goodness sakes no company CEO works any form of standard hours, nor do their key managers.

CEOs are pretty much on call 24/7 and if you're seriously suggesting he and his CFO and other senior managers look at the clock having done their contracted number of hours and say "ok time to go home" you really are living on another planet.

It doesn't work like that - you go home when the job is done. You don't get paid overtime - the higher salaries reflect the responsibilities that go with the job.

Exactly yet the NBRU and Siptu have allowed this nonsense to be passed off as a saving. The company has big pockets and the unions are firmly in them.

Tickityboo · 17-05-2013 4:39pm

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Is it just me, or did the unions agree to pretty much the same "no way" cuts as before, with some token farthings taken from the top brass?

The unions may have agreed!!
Somehow I don't think the drivers will!!

cdebru · 17-05-2013 6:10pm

ixoy wrote: »

Meanwhile those in the executive branch near the bottom of the pay scale (which is below 40k) are taking a pay cut and having to work the extra hours. Some of the driver's savings are at the expense of those earning earning less than the average driver.

No they aren't having a pay cut they are losing a couple of days holidays ( so are the drivers) and they have to work an extra 3 hours a week. I'm guessing a lot of drivers would jump at the deal they got. Couple of extra hours and still take home the same money.

It is hilarious how biased some people are in here, they would be jumping up and down if frontline staff in the health service or the gardai were having a wage cut imposed while the administrative staff just had to work a full day on Friday.

But if it is a guy driving a bus ?no everyone should be paid more than him, won't someone think of the poor clerks. Doesn't matter they are the ones out all hours and weathers 364 days of the year dealing with customers actually collecting the revenue.

Same not a peep out of any of these people that apparently it took a 2 day strike to convince the senior management that they should make a contribution to saving the company. No not a word they just bleet on about a 7 euro meal allowance. Not a word about executives out for lunch on the company credit card and spending a lot more than 7 euro.

devnull · 18-05-2013 5:15pm

Here is the actual deal that was agreed:
http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2013/05/lrc-bus-eireann.pdf

Hilly Bill · 19-05-2013 1:19am

devnull wrote: »

Here is the actual deal that was agreed:
http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2013/05/lrc-bus-eireann.pdf

I feel the clerical staff are hard done by in that proposal. If they have to step back 1 point on the scale then why not the drivers?

ebbsy · 19-05-2013 7:56pm

More fare rises on the way ? I will keep using the car then.

Victor · 20-05-2013 3:42pm

ebbsy wrote: »

More fare rises on the way ?

Possibly, in 7.5 months time.

n97 mini · 20-05-2013 11:39pm

Do staff take Self-Certified sick days as holidays if at the end of the year they haven't actually used them up while sick?

foggy_lad · 21-05-2013 12:51am

n97 mini wrote: »

Do staff take Self-Certified sick days as holidays if at the end of the year they haven't actually used them up while sick?

They are usually used in a rolling time period so if you had 5 days a year you would have 15 days in any rolling 3 year period to use up.

Hilly Bill · 21-05-2013 1:56am

n97 mini wrote: »

Do staff take Self-Certified sick days as holidays if at the end of the year they haven't actually used them up while sick?

A lot dont use them at all.

Patser · 21-05-2013 7:33am

n97 mini wrote: »

Do staff take Self-Certified sick days as holidays if at the end of the year they haven't actually used them up while sick?

No.

foggy_lad wrote: »

They are usually used in a rolling time period so if you had 5 days a year you would have 15 days in any rolling 3 year period to use up.

And no

In BE if they're not used they're gone. Also there are some rules to their use. Only 1 of the current 4 can be a Saturday, and you cannot create a 3 day break with you're day's off - so if you've a weekend off and call in sick on Monday, that's a no-no and you need a doctor's cert.

Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

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