Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; Have NOT Read the Books

Anachrony · 15-04-2014 1:32am

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Wouldn't it of made more sense to try and poison Tywin? sure joffrey is a **** but everybody knows hes no threat, he's basically a pawn.

Depends on who you are and what your goals are.

He was a dangerous pawn with real power that Tywin couldn't 100% control. Tywin can 100% control Tommen for several years, at least, and even when he does come of age he will likely be easier to deal with.

If you're a rival to the throne who wants to destroy the Lannisters, then Tywin would be a better target. Tywin is holding them together while Joffrey is doing as poor a job as any Lannister ruler could.

If you're a Lannister, having Tommen in charge rather than Joffrey may well be a major improvement in your situation.

If you're a Tyrell, then having your relative married to Joffrey is not an ideal situation. Playing the long game, at some point Tywin will be out of the picture, the king will have real power, and through him so will his wife, especially if she is part of an influential family whose support the king relies heavily on. That's pretty much exactly what happened with King Robert's wife's wealthy family basically taking the place over, and the Tyrell's would like to be in that position for the next generation. But Joffrey is a hateful little **** who can't be reasoned with. Being married to a sweeter, more impressionable sibling would be a much better position for them, on both a personal and pragmatic level.

RobertKK · 15-04-2014 2:42am

One could see Margery and the grandmother were not happy with the carry on of Joffrey.
The grandmother is possibly the cleverest person in GoT. She was the only person who got Sansa to open up and tell her the truth about Joffrey - the woman who had been destined to be in the position Margery would find herself in.
Margery aware of Joffrey's brutality, had always been forceful in moving things on like we saw at the wedding when Joffrey was basically embarrassing them all.
The Tyrells were not impressed with the mockery of the seven kings and had always been nice to Sansa.

I suspect there was some sort of grand conspiracy in the death of Joffrey. Maybe Sansa and the the elder Tyrell along with the fool. I don't know but we will find out in time I'm sure.

Joffrey scared me as a character, hated him but he was always compelling as a character. He will not be forgotten.

Optimalprimerib · 15-04-2014 5:08am

I hope to god its sansa that did it. Makes her that bit more pro-active than being such a weak character.

Cersei's little argument with where the left overs were going would not take her out of consideration. Maybe the glass was meant for margorie.

it was a very satisfying death for joffrey for him to go out with a rotting whimper as he had such a pure rotten evil in him. Not clever, not manipulating just a niave, spoilt little bully with no redeeming features. Still one of my favourite characters though.

macslash · 15-04-2014 6:58am

But....who'll get the sword now?! :-P

NBTD · 15-04-2014 7:59am

My take on it.

I think they have made it too obvious for Olanna Tyrell to be the killer. The episode was set up to make you think it was her, and I don't think it would be that transparent.

Looking at who has the most to gain, I thought Tywin might have done it. He will rule the kingdom as hand of the king.
I thought it was the cake rather than the wine - I looked back at the final scene, and nobody else is shown eating the cake.

Hadn't thought of Cersei being involved until someone pointed out that she sent the Maester away, but despite all Joffrey's faults she has always shown love for her children and fought for them. Thought it was clever showing Jaime rushing to his son's aid also...

Episode was built up very well to show a number of people that would have a reason to do it

Essien · 15-04-2014 8:23am

I think it's a conspiracy involving Sir Dontos and Sansa.

Why would he go straight to her? What makes him think she'd be killed?

He seemed focused and collected when he went to her, like it was planned.

Essien · 15-04-2014 8:24am

Also, I don't think it's possible for me to care less about the Stannis and the mad one storyline. Just go away.

NBTD · 15-04-2014 8:37am

Essien wrote: »

I think it's a conspiracy involving Sir Dontos and Sansa.

Why would he go straight to her? What makes him think she'd be killed?

He seemed focused and collected when he went to her, like it was planned.

Well, if they're blaming Tyrion, then she would be left in a very vulnerable position.... She would no longer be any use to the Lannisters, as with Tyrion in jail, this would be the end of the Lannister-Stark union... Though I doubt Ser Dontos would have had enough time to weigh all this up had he not been pre-warned

Dan_Solo · 15-04-2014 8:43am

Doesn't make sense that the cake was poisoned TBH. Wouldn't loads of people be eating some of it. You could poison half the wedding party.

Dan_Solo · 15-04-2014 8:48am

Essien wrote: »

Also, I don't think it's possible for me to care less about the Stannis and the mad one storyline. Just go away.

At least there's bit of magic in that bit, unlike a lot of the rest which may as well be set in 8th century France or something.

NBTD · 15-04-2014 8:48am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Doesn't make sense that the cake was poisoned TBH. Wouldn't loads of people be eating some of it. You could poison half the wedding party.

hmmm.... it could have been a tradition that the king gets cake first...

maybe tradition that they feed each other cake first - in this case either:
Margaery was in on it, or
Whoever did it didn't mind killing Margaery as collateral

The first case points to the Tyrells, the latter points to the Lannisters

Dan_Solo · 15-04-2014 8:54am

In fact, it seems crazy to poison Jeffrey at the biggest wedding in history when you think about it. Why not wait a night or two? If whoever did it hadn't lucked out with Jeffrey randomly picking on Tyrion, they could've been fingered much more easily.

Bacchus · 15-04-2014 9:00am

Ha! I thought it was a straightforward case that Sir Dontos (the fool) did it, given his "this is you chance to get away" comment to Sansa. Wasn't until I came on here that I realised the entire royal wedding scenes were all setups for a huge whodunnit!!

That has to be one of the best episode of GoT so far. It was an excellent episode up to the last 15 minutes or so of the wedding but those last 15 minutes had me on the edge of my seat WAITING for something to kick off. The tension just kept ramping up. Loved ALL the interactions between the various characters. So many little feuds and rivalries going around. That dwarf show was, unbelievably, one of the most fcuked up things Joffrey has done. It was just so messed up given who was in the audience... and he knew it... and loved it. Then the humiliation of Tyrion. I was actually expecting Shae to be brought out and killed in front of Tyrion. My hatred of Joffrey was at an all time high, so to see him start choking to death was awesome. The show really went for it too with that money shot of the bloodied, ever so slightly cross eyed King Joffrey at the end.

That may be the talking point but a lot more happened in this episode. Theon is now Reek and he is a broken man. Surely there is some redemption coming for him down the line. We saw a glimmer that Theon is still in there in his reaction to hearing Rob was dead. The Boltons are grade A nutjobs and they are great. Ramsay is quite enjoyable as an evil bastard. He really revels in torturing people.

Bran's story kind progressed a bit too. His powers are developing and they actually have a mission to get to a specific place now (even if we don't know where that is). Also, the Bolton's are after him now.

I could go on and on about that episode but that's the main stuff that did it for me

Artful_Badger · 15-04-2014 9:13am

I'm gonna miss Joffrey, one of the few characters who can create such unease and is liable to do just about anything. The scene with him trying to humiliate Tyrion was fantastic. I was expecting Tyrion to tell him to go fcuk himself when he was commanded to kneel and assumed that was how he ended up in chains in the trailer. Never expected a big character to die this early in the season.

As for Theon I think his chance for redemption will come when they find John but I wouldnt bank on him taking it. Where did Roose send them ? Was it to the north to get John or was it to sack some nearby castle to start his conquest of the north ?

Lovely Bloke · 15-04-2014 9:17am

This is what it feels like

gots04s02.1.jpg

When doves pie

Billy86 · 15-04-2014 9:28am

Well then... I certainly did NOT see that coming!

sebastianlieken · 15-04-2014 9:28am

I very much doubt that if the cake was the host of the poison, that the entire cake would have been poisoned; much more likely is the scenario that Margaery poisoned Joffrey's portion and then fed it to him.

Either that, or Sansa poured a few drops of something into the goblet before handing it back to Tyrion, even if both Joff and Tyrion looked into the goblet, a few drops of liquid wouldn't arouse suspicion - there will always be a few drops of liquid left in a glass if you spill it. It's quite possible that Joff's fool Dontos saw Sansa do it, and offered to repay his debt to her by getting her to safety. Sansa's motive for killing him is very much present.

I don't understand why Margaery would poison him though, there's nothing to be gained in my eyes - is she even queen yet seeing as they didn't consumate the marriage yet?

I'm left scratching my head thinking who's in charge now? Tywin Lannister as the Hand of the King until Tommen comes of age?, Tommen Baratheon as the next in Line?, "Queen" Margaery?

castletownman · 15-04-2014 9:50am

Ser Dontos reminds me of a chubby Chris O'Dowd!

yourdeadwright · 15-04-2014 9:52am

Did anyone who watched it on Sky Atlantic notice there seemed to be way more ad breaks than normal, it was really annoying seemed like every 5 minutes ,

Essien · 15-04-2014 9:54am

Bacchus wrote: »

Ha! I thought it was a straightforward case that Sir Dontos (the fool) did it, given his "this is you chance to get away" comment to Sansa.

I thought the same, it seems a little too straightforward though, or maybe we're all just over-thinking it. There are any number of potential suspects, even a few Lannisters, but in hindsight, I think Sir Dontos makes the most sense - as part of a conspiracy, not on his own or anything like that.

kryogen · 15-04-2014 10:21am

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Did anyone who watched it on Sky Atlantic notice there seemed to be way more ad breaks than normal, it was really annoying seemed like every 5 minutes ,

Yeah, Im actually going to just download the episodes from here on in, absolutely headwrecking.

squonk · 15-04-2014 10:31am

I thought this was a top quality episode from beginning to end! Dealing with the other strands first. It's hard not to feel sorry for Reek (nee Theon) these days! They've done another Jamie with this character. Someone who was so deplorable yet now you feel pity for them. I loved the shaving scene though I think I just knew that he wouldn't do the obvious, even though Roose Bolton mightn't have shed many tears really even if he found himself a bastard down.

Melisandre is always great to watch. I feel sorry for Stannis' daughter. She's a nice little girl surrounded by nut jobs but she's smart and has Ser Davos still around so she may be OK. Ser Davos is one of the only redeeming qualities of that entire plotline really. It was nice to check in though and see what the latest was with these wackos.

Great scene with Jaimie starting his training. It'll be a while but he's bound to be back to his old self before long.

As for the rest, what can I say??? I read a spoiler by accident at one point that mentioned how and when Joffrey died. Jack Gleeson did an interview with the Indo a few months ago saying he lwas leaving GoT and quitting acting so I knew his demise was iminent but I didn't think it'd be until the end of the season. I thought the wedding might have been another finalé. My money is on a conspiracy between the Tyrells and Littlefinger. Littlefinger wasn't at the wedding. I found that suspicious even though he has an alibi but it seems like the type of devious move he'd try, plus he can't be implicated as he wasn't there unless a Tyrell talks. As for the Tyrells, my money is on the grandmother. She's a practical lady who knows from Sansa what Joffrey is like. Her comment to Tywin about needing their money before long shows that Marjory isn't going anywhere in the interim even though the marriage hasn't been consumated. Tommen is probably a better match for her as she's a canny lady and I reckon she'd have far more influence over him than Joffrey. I reckon the old lady wanted to save her granddaughter the trouble of being married to Joffrey and the abuse that would entail. My jury is out as to whether Marjorie was in on the whole thing. As for Littlefinger, he gets to finally deal with Tyrion and has a chance to get Sansa out of Kings Landing. I presume that she can't really hang around the plaace now that Tyrion is likely to be arrested or god knows what. Sansa wouldn't have left of her own accord so I think he just precipitated the crisis to force her to accept his help.

No way does Sansa have the stones to kill Joffrey. It really looks like she'll remain fairly helpless and I can't see any character development previously that would suggest she's changing in any way.

Poison was too good for Joffrey but it was 'nice' to see just how big a cúnt he could be right up to his last moments. It certainly was maybe the best way as his guard would have prevented anyone from slaying him.

All in all, a great episode. Nothing could top it really. At the end I looked at other shows I'd lined up to watch and just went 'um, no!'. It was too hard to follow!

Da Shins Kelly · 15-04-2014 11:10am

If it was the Tyrells and they have now swept Sansa away to take refuge in High Garden, that is hardly going to go down too well with the Lannisters? And surely that's pretty suspicious behaviour on their part?

klose · 15-04-2014 11:11am

Essien wrote: »

Also, I don't think it's possible for me to care less about the Stannis and the mad one storyline. Just go away.

Its probably the least interesting of all the story lines at the moment even though it will probably have a major impact later on id say.

Da Shins Kelly · 15-04-2014 11:15am

Stannis' storyline is bugging me too. How into the religious fanaticism is he? I know he really values the witch woman, but he doesn't seem as crazy as some of her followers, like his wife for example. His daughter seems like a smart cookie, she was asking a few questions in the last episode, and he seems intent on protecting her. I wonder what will happen should the witch take a disliking to her.

Blazer · 15-04-2014 11:16am

squonk wrote: »

Jack Gleeson did an interview with the Indo a few months ago saying he lwas leaving GoT and quitting acting

that's a pity..he's a brilliant actor who really played the little cvnt extremely well. It's a sign of a good actor playing an evil character that you'd punch the git if you ever met him even though you know he's just acting

Not saying I'd punch him

Caliden · 15-04-2014 11:21am

Blazer wrote: »

that's a pity..he's a brilliant actor who really played the little cvnt extremely well. It's a sign of a good actor playing an evil character that you'd punch the git if you ever met him even though you know he's just acting
Not saying I'd punch him

Is it any wonder R.R. Martin sent him a letter saying "Congratulations on your marvelous performance, everyone hates you." after Season 1.

Mr. CooL ICE · 15-04-2014 11:34am

I really don't think it was the pie that was poisoned. I think the shot of the blood in the middle was just to show that Joffrey knew there were doves in there and wanted to kill/maim them in the cutting process. Another thing to make him more of a cnut.

My money on the 'how' is the cup. But the 'who', I reckon is 50/50 between Sansa and Cersei. Sansa has obvious motives and handled the cup under the table before handing it to Tyrion, but I think Cersei ordering whatshisface to scrap the food is sispicious in itself. That, and she seems to know her poisons anyway.

Feed me Seymour · 15-04-2014 11:37am

I am hoping it was Sansa, but feel it was cersai who poisoned the cup/wine. I dont think it was meant for joffery, but rather his missus. I'll have to watch it again, but I thought joffery took the cup in front of Marjorie. It wasnt long before that when cersai claimed she was the queen.

As others on here have mentioned, the ads on sky atlantic seemed to go on forever. I recorded the 2.00 am showing last week and there wasnt one single ad, it was even better than the on-demand version who slip in a few standard sky atlantic ads between scenes. No work next monday, so I may try and obtain a link to the hbo screening. - The wait kills me. Thats what I get for binging on the previous 3 seasons leading up to the season 4 premiere.

TheDoc · 15-04-2014 12:16pm

Great episode, fair play to the guy who played the king, can't remember genuinelly hating such a character on TV.

I thought it was really well done in a sense that during the actual progression of what took place, it made me go through about 4-5 scenarios of what happened, and by the end not having a clue.

I thought the brief glimpse of the lacerated birds in the pie was significant, and then he started choking. I immediately thought it was him chocking on a bone.

Then I saw the discolour in his face and thought **** he's being poisoned, as the camera shifted around, you could see the faces and expressions of people who saw great benefit and satisifaction in his death.

MY misses has a bit of an outrageous nack to guessing **** in shows before they happen, or making correct calls, so I'll spoiler tag her thoughts out

She believes it was Sansa, planting the poison in the cup when she handed it to Tyrion. He had already drunk from the cup and was fine, but only after refilling once the cup was passed back to Tyrion from Sansa, did he die.

She thinks it was both significant that after she saw the king drink from the cup, she asked could they leave, and then another quick scene with the fool telling her she needs to leave.

She thinks the poison came from either a) her own precurement where she had planned to commit suicide or b)plotting with the jester/fool to get revenge

Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

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Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; Have NOT Read the Books