Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

namloc1980 · 18-05-2014 3:19pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Of course not.

Tallaght Stadium only holds 6,000.

Do you really believe you wouldn't get 90,000 for a game anywhere in Ireland if Man United or Liverpool played their first team ? Honestly ?

Yes I do believe that. Honestly. You might get that crowd if it was a competitive game...maybe, but a friendly no way. If it was the case why aren't teams doing it. Why aren't man u or Liverpool coming over to play in croke park every year?

two wheels good · 18-05-2014 3:40pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

80% of the show grounds land is still being used for the public park.

How many public parks does Cork need. Its getting an enormous one on the site of the Kinsale Road dump too. Is a rectangle of land the size of a GAA pitch really going to detract from Marina Park that badly ?

It certainly isn't "just a rectangle of land the size of a GAA pitch" The GAA want 2.8 acres (stadium related) and 6.08 acres (training pitch related).
If I could find a link to the total land we could check your 80% assertion but it's not just the area is the issue. It's the integrity of the park as a unit and the rights of the majority public, daily users of the park versus the minority GAA users.

For example see here for elaboration;
"In the design of the park a natural hierarchy of use and interest should be apparent. The daily users and their needs should be addressed first and foremost with the less frequent and incidental users then being accommodated. This masterplan has turned the whole thing upside-down with the least frequent user (the GAA) being put centre stage and all other users being forced out and their needs addressed in an incidental way. This is bad planning and will not work.
Activities enjoyed by the majority of regular park users have been shoehorned in around the needs of the GAA. "

As for the number of parks Cork needs:
- Cork's provision of parks is poor compared to comparable cities
- take a look at how over-used Fitz's Park and Lucy park are usually.
- View that notorious drone flight over Cork video. It certainly struck me how few sizable green areas existed
- The docklands area will eventually be redeveloped. The park will be needed for a growing local population.
- It's proximity to the Marina and the Rochestown railway line walk means its a natural extension to an excellent and hugely popular local amenity that could also be a practical green route. These points should take priority.

AugustusMinimus · 18-05-2014 3:47pm

two wheels good wrote: »

It certainly isn't "just a rectangle of land the size of a GAA pitch" The GAA want 2.8 acres (stadium related) and 6.08 acres (training pitch related).
If I could find a link to the total land we could check your 80% assertion but it's not just the area is the issue. It's the integrity of the park as a unit and the rights of the majority public, daily users of the park versus the minority GAA users.

For example see here for elaboration;
"In the design of the park a natural hierarchy of use and interest should be apparent. The daily users and their needs should be addressed first and foremost with the less frequent and incidental users then being accommodated. This masterplan has turned the whole thing upside-down with the least frequent user (the GAA) being put centre stage and all other users being forced out and their needs addressed in an incidental way. This is bad planning and will not work.
Activities enjoyed by the majority of regular park users have been shoehorned in around the needs of the GAA. "

As for the number of parks Cork needs:
- Cork's provision of parks is poor compared to comparable cities
- take a look at how over-used Fitz's Park and Lucy park are usually.
- View that notorious drone flight over Cork video. It certainly struck me how few sizable green areas existed
- The docklands area will eventually be redeveloped. The park will be needed for a growing local population.
- It's proximity to the Marina and the Rochestown railway line walk means its a natural extension to an excellent and hugely popular local amenity that could also be a practical green route. These points should take priority.

Just to put it in context, Tramore Valley Park is currently being landscaped and built for a 2015 opening. In terms of size, it will dwarf Marina Park.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/environmentrecreation/tramorevalleyparkmasterplan/5890_Tramore_Valley_Park_Masterplan%20final_opt1.pdf

evilivor · 18-05-2014 3:55pm

Munster Rugby are reportedly putting together an extensive ground redevelopment plan for Irish Independent Park to allow it to compete with Thomond Park in Limerick to host games in both the RaboDirect PRO12 and the Heineken Cup.

I wonder will they be getting public funding for it?

two wheels good · 18-05-2014 3:57pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Just to put it in context, Tramore Valley Park is currently being landscaped and built for a 2015 opening. In terms of size, it will dwarf Marina Park.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/environmentrecreation/tramorevalleyparkmasterplan/5890_Tramore_Valley_Park_Masterplan%20final_opt1.pdf

Pity PUC couldn't be relocated there near the better transport facilities.

And as I already mentioned, which you may not have taken the haven't take the time to read or consider:
It's not just about size.
I refer you to my previous post

MANUTD99 · 18-05-2014 4:10pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Close up render of the redevelopment.

That is fecking awful looking. The amount of money being thrown at this thing you would hope people behind the goals would have a roof over their heads.

Brutal looking re developmet. Do it right or dont do it at all. All seater 35K stadium would be great and could open the door to other sports. Second biggest city in Ireland should have a 4/5 star stadium. That plan above looks ****e

Waste of money if thats what they are going with

rebs23 · 18-05-2014 4:12pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

It won't attract a lot more big games. Cork, Tipp, Limerick and Kerry all have home and away agreements which won't have any impact. Thurles will continue to get it's fair share of other games. AI series qualifiers are in a home and away arrangement. QFs and beyond in football are locked into Croker for commercial reasons. An upgraded PuC might get an extra game every year or two but that'll be about it. For most counties beyond Munster it's not convenient to get to. The GAA won't play many games in Cork if they feel fans won't travel.

PuC is also very poorly served by local transport options. It's a nightmare to get to and out of on a big match day. None of that has been addressed in the redevelopment.

Rugby World Cup? All Ireland Qualifiers? Extra Munster Championship matches that are currently played elsewhere because of the state of PUC? Stadium type concerts that cannot or have not been held there recently because of the poor state of the stadium? People like myself that currently won't bring my kids to big games in PUC due to the condition of the stadium. Some of the attendance figures being quoted are way off the mark. PUC used to have a capacity of 65,000. The stadium will pay for itself over its lifetime.

PUC is in the city centre within walking distance of the train and bus station.
All sustainable development policies call for such stadiums to be in city centre locations. Where else would you have it that is closer to the bus or train station? There is nowhere closer possible for stadium development.

Traffic management plans and public transport plans for events at the stadium have all been addressed in the conditions granted in the permission.

You could go around in circles all day on these types of arguments but even some of the local politicians that were against the redevelopment are now in favour of it, which would indicate a certain change of opinion on the matter locally.
For me its simple, the stadium is being redeveloped in the location that it was always located in and the grounds around it were always used for sporting events including the land that was part of the Munster agricultural society grounds. Its derelict and an eyesore attracting anti social type behaviour. It will bring a lot more events to Cork and contribute enormously to Corks economy and attraction for all types of events.

As for public money being spent on the redevelopment, other cities in Ireland have had substantial public money spent on stadiums for sporting organisations so why not PUC in Cork? An estimated €500 Million on stadiums in Dublin alone and we get €30 Million? All over the world public money is spent on building stadiums so that cities can attract events. Why not Cork?

Are we to be the only city in Ireland not to have a modern stadium capable of attracting significant sporting and cultural events?

I just can't understand the objectors but that probably works both ways.:)

rebs23 · 18-05-2014 4:17pm

evilivor wrote: »

Munster Rugby are reportedly putting together an extensive ground redevelopment plan for Irish Independent Park to allow it to compete with Thomond Park in Limerick to host games in both the RaboDirect PRO12 and the Heineken Cup.

I wonder will they be getting public funding for it?

Munster Rugby have all but abandoned Cork. Training centre in Limerick and Thomond Park as the premier stadium. Munster rugby will not be putting anything in place to compete with Thomond Park. Link to the plans? Pure dreamland speculation. The only plans for a modern stadium in Cork are the GAA ones.
As for public money, how much did Thomond get?

AugustusMinimus · 18-05-2014 4:45pm

two wheels good wrote: »

Pity PUC couldn't be relocated there near the better transport facilities.

The South Ring Road is bad enough without putting a 45,000 stadium right beside the Kinsale Road Roundabout. Simply wouldn't be allowed.

namloc1980 · 18-05-2014 4:46pm

rebs23 wrote: »

All Ireland Qualifiers? Extra Munster Championship matches that are currently played elsewhere because of the state of PUC?

Which qualifiers? As stated Cork as a neutral venue only suits a small number of counties. And which extra Munster games. Most teams have a home and away arrangement where they alternate home venues year after year. The likes of Tipp or Limerick aren't going to give up a home game to suit PuC.

AugustusMinimus · 18-05-2014 4:49pm

evilivor wrote: »

Munster Rugby are reportedly putting together an extensive ground redevelopment plan for Irish Independent Park to allow it to compete with Thomond Park in Limerick to host games in both the RaboDirect PRO12 and the Heineken Cup.

I wonder will they be getting public funding for it?

Musgrave Park has hosted Pro12 games up until the end of this season.

As rebs23 has said, there is no way Munster branch will develop Musgrave Park to a standard anything like Thomond Park. Nothing close to it.

There isn't a hope Cork will see a Heineken Cup game (or whatever it is called next year) in the next 20 years. Not a chance.

Munster Branch have effectively abandoned Cork, but then again, it had to abandon one city or the other.

Funnily enough, I don't remember any debate like all of what is going on now when both Thomond Park and the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick had millions spent on them.

AugustusMinimus · 18-05-2014 4:51pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Which qualifiers? As stated Cork as a neutral venue only suits a small number of counties. And which extra Munster games. Most teams have a home and away arrangement where they alternate home venues year after year. The likes of Tipp or Limerick aren't going to give up a home game to suit PuC.

What exactly do you want to see done ?

namloc1980 · 18-05-2014 4:56pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What exactly do you want to see done ?

Not spend public money on a white elephant that won't be used. No problem if it was going to be extensively used but for a handful of events every year it is madness.

AugustusMinimus · 18-05-2014 4:59pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Not spend public money on a white elephant that won't be used. No problem if it was going to be extensively used but for a handful of events every year it is madness.

Instead of being negative in every post, explain what should be done. You've spent today doing largely nothing but shooting down everyone else's posts.

Limerick has built 2 large stadium without detractors having a go off them. Half a billion of public money has been spent between Croke Park and The Aviva in Dublin.

I'm actually stunned by the way that it got €30m of funding as Cork seems to be the forgotten city in Ireland. Galway and Limerick are constantly getting more and more infrastructural funding with Cork being left behind. But, c'est la vie.

Nonoperational · 18-05-2014 5:01pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Instead of being negative in every post, explain what should be done. You've spent today doing largely nothing but shooting down everyone else's posts.

Limerick has built 2 large stadium without detractors having a go off them. Half a billion of public money has been spent between Croke Park and The Aviva in Dublin.

People love having a go and being negative. Draining to be honest.

AugustusMinimus · 18-05-2014 5:08pm

I'm not going to pin it on any posters here, but I have no doubt that a lot of the negativity around any redevelopment is due to an anti-GAA bias.

I've seen all sorts of stuff being pandered about this project. The usual Grab All Association has of course raised its ugly head elsewhere.

I'd be interested to know if there was a similar debate on here when the government spent €200m of public money on the Aviva Stadium ?

evilivor · 18-05-2014 5:14pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Musgrave Park has hosted Pro12 games up until the end of this season.

As rebs23 has said, there is no way Munster branch will develop Musgrave Park to a standard anything like Thomond Park. Nothing close to it.

There isn't a hope Cork will see a Heineken Cup game (or whatever it is called next year) in the next 20 years. Not a chance.

Munster Branch have effectively abandoned Cork, but then again, it had to abandon one city or the other.

Funnily enough, I don't remember any debate like all of what is going on now when both Thomond Park and the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick had millions spent on them.

I have no idea what Munster have planned for Irish Independent Park but they made an announcement that new funding would allow them to: "progress on our redevelopment of the grounds and commit to our rugby future here. Cork is a vital element of Munster Rugby's success and we are happy that Irish Independent Park will be central to rugby development in the region."

FrStone · 18-05-2014 5:19pm

rebs23 wrote: »

As for public money being spent on the redevelopment, other cities in Ireland have had substantial public money spent on stadiums for sporting organisations so why not PUC in Cork? An estimated €500 Million on stadiums in Dublin alone and we get €30 Million? All over the world public money is spent on building stadiums so that cities can attract events. Why not Cork?

Are we to be the only city in Ireland not to have a modern stadium capable of attracting significant sporting and cultural events?

I just can't understand the objectors but that probably works both ways.:)

I just want to clarify, I doubt many are objecting to public money being spent on developing a stadium. It's more the fact that the stadium will not be open to other sports, or if it is that the GAA will get first pick.

A good stadium would be a great asset if it could be used by all sporting organisations and for concerts etc.

clerk · 18-05-2014 5:33pm

FrStone wrote: »

I just want to clarify, I doubt many are objecting to public money being spent on developing a stadium. It's more the fact that the stadium will not be open to other sports, or if it is that the GAA will get first pick.

A good stadium would be a great asset if it could be used by all sporting organisations and for concerts etc.

I think in fairness the stadium will have to be opened up to all Sports and I would be amazed if that has not been agreed with the Govt. if there are going to throw in €30m. I can see both sides of the argument to be honest.

They are doing nothing about match traffic as far as I can see. P ui C is a desperate bottle kneck on match Days.

Why they don't buy the old Ford distribution site as part of the development, which l think is in Nama now ? is beyond me. It's already a car park and is used for same for the Marquee. That would sort out a multitude and maybe you could build a two storey car park, if possible, and even put a state of the art gym over it and if permitted conference facilities as well. It's about a 500 yard walk to P ui C from there and it would sort out a lot of the messing with parking on match Days.

if it is in Nama surely the Govt have an input into it's sale.

namloc1980 · 18-05-2014 5:51pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Instead of being negative in every post, explain what should be done. You've spent today doing largely nothing but shooting down everyone else's posts.

Limerick has built 2 large stadium without detractors having a go off them. Half a billion of public money has been spent between Croke Park and The Aviva in Dublin.

I'm actually stunned by the way that it got €30m of funding as Cork seems to be the forgotten city in Ireland. Galway and Limerick are constantly getting more and more infrastructural funding with Cork being left behind. But, c'est la vie.

There was huge debate in Limerick when they redeveloped the two stadiums. I know it's tempting to pretend there was no debate but there was. There is still a lot of questions in Limerick about the need for the Gaelic Grounds. It has hardly been filled once since it's redevelopment.

The issue is not the redevelopment of PuC per se, it's that it is going towards something that will hardly be used at all.

BUNK1982 · 18-05-2014 7:25pm

FrStone wrote: »

I just want to clarify, I doubt many are objecting to public money being spent on developing a stadium. It's more the fact that the stadium will not be open to other sports, or if it is that the GAA will get first pick.

A good stadium would be a great asset if it could be used by all sporting organisations and for concerts etc.

That just about sums up my thinking on the matter as well. I'm in no way anti-GAA but rules like only using PuC for GAA are completely outdated.

Also I don't get the need for building a centre of excellence - surely this is something that could be run out of more accessible facilities like Mallow, Nemo or Clon?

Finally I'd think the design of the stadium could be sexed up - it would a great landmark coming into the city if done right.

clerk · 18-05-2014 8:11pm

BUNK1982 wrote: »

Also I don't get the need for building a centre of excellence - surely this is something that could be run out of more accessible facilities like Mallow, Nemo or Clon?

Finally I'd think the design of the stadium could be sexed up - it would a great landmark coming into the city if done right.

There is absolutely no need at all for the centre of excellence to down in P ui C. lt would make far more sense financially and from a logistics point of view to have it somewhere on the edge of the City with handy access from the main roads. It is basically a waste of space down in the Marina. It's not like the players are going to going to in the centre of excellence before they tog out for their Championship match !!!

l'd like to see the stadium plans revamped as well, the thing is totally lop sided , as l'll be looking for it ( and paying for it ) for the rest of my life l would expect a considerably better design.

This viewing area over the training pitch, from the stadium, is a basket case as well, l've never heard or seen the likes of it. Waste of money.

Finally, there is absolutely no need for a training pitch beside P ui C, P Ui Rinn is about a 10 minute jog away for christ sakes. All the league games were in P ui R this Year !!! In any event l'm confident our seniors could make it up Temple Hill at a push.

a) build the Centre of excellence elsewhere, get the land from NAMA, as cheap as possible.
b) Forget about the training pitch.
c) Revamp the entire stadium, the current plan looks like a house extension.
d) Buy the old 'Ford' site off NAMA ( as cheap as possible ) and put in the required parking, for all events. Possibly put the gym here, again freeing up space for a logically shaped stadium.
e) Open the stadium to all sports. By the way l think as things stand they will have a major job on their hands meeting the UEFA safety crtieria for safety and crowd control etc. Basically there is nothing there as it stands. If they don't sort that out they won't get these games, they will go to Dublin every time. These are a massive money spinner and will be only rarely required so a win win.

kub · 18-05-2014 8:38pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The South Ring Road is bad enough without putting a 45,000 stadium right beside the Kinsale Road Roundabout. Simply wouldn't be allowed.

Planning has already been obtained and construction is due to begin shortly but not for 45,000. If memory serves me correctly it is 12 k.

RoyalCelt · 19-05-2014 1:00am

rebs23 wrote: »

An upgraded PUC will attract a lot more big matches if it is upgraded. Cork fans are always travelling.
As a local, I am delighted this derelict area is being redeveloped. Considering the huge sums invested by the GAA and the Government elsewhere, good to see Cork gets a small slice of the cake.
Looking forward to Munster finals , hurling and football, AI series matches, Rugby World Cups, the big stadium size concerts all on my doorstep.
There has always been a stadium with a min capacity of 45,000 and it will attract the numbers over its lifetime to justify the money. The economic yield for Cork is huge. We cannot be the only City in Ireland without a modern stadium capable of holding major events.

Crok have a home and away agreement and if they ever meet in an all ireland quarter or semi final it should count for that too. Cork v kerry semi in Croker might have a total of 25-30k fans from noth at it. So why not pack one of their own stadiums to the rafters and worse case scenario have limerick or thurlers used instead.

The GAA would be so much better if the quarters and semi's didn't absolutely have to be played in Dublin.

RoyalCelt · 19-05-2014 1:24am

FrStone wrote: »

I just want to clarify, I doubt many are objecting to public money being spent on developing a stadium. It's more the fact that the stadium will not be open to other sports, or if it is that the GAA will get first pick.

A good stadium would be a great asset if it could be used by all sporting organisations and for concerts etc.

It works both ways mate. The Aviva had hundreds of millions spent on it by the govt, and it's not suitable for the GAA to play. Same with the new thomand and i'm sure musgrave park after a very minor upgrade too. The GAA don't actually look for it often but when they did with Tallaght stadium they were denied. SO I don't see why the usual when can only the gaa use gaa grounds without paying argument arises.

Cork county has close to a hundred thousand gaa memebers (possibly more) ad they all pay their taxes. A 30M grant is really not that big a deal and if another sport in cork wants that go and get yourself a similar number of members and supporters that would actually go to a game in that sport. Soccer in the city is grand and cork city have the best stadium in the loi and very good attendances that don't fill it but are respectable none the less.

RoyalCelt · 19-05-2014 1:27am

BUNK1982 wrote: »

That just about sums up my thinking on the matter as well. I'm in no way anti-GAA but rules like only using PuC for GAA are completely outdated.

Also I don't get the need for building a centre of excellence - surely this is something that could be run out of more accessible facilities like Mallow, Nemo or Clon?

Finally I'd think the design of the stadium could be sexed up - it would a great landmark coming into the city if done right.

They said the ew gaa pitch (center of excellence) will be used for local club and school games mostly. If they are building it I'd say there's every need for it.

thelad95 · 19-05-2014 1:36am

Pairc Ui Chaoimh is a stadium disaster waiting to happen. We know from looking at our neighbours across the water that you shouldn't wait until accidents happen to take action.

AugustusMinimus · 19-05-2014 7:29am

kub wrote: »

Planning has already been obtained and construction is due to begin shortly but not for 45,000. If memory serves me correctly it is 12 k.

I was saying if the Pairc had been relocated to Tramore Valley Park as some one else thought would be a good idea. Which of course it won't be.

FrStone · 19-05-2014 9:04am

RoyalCelt wrote: »

It works both ways mate. The Aviva had hundreds of millions spent on it by the govt, and it's not suitable for the GAA to play. Same with the new thomand and i'm sure musgrave park after a very minor upgrade too. The GAA don't actually look for it often but when they did with Tallaght stadium they were denied. SO I don't see why the usual when can only the gaa use gaa grounds without paying argument arises.

Oh I would make the same arguments about the Aviva etc. Should have been publicly funded and made available to all sports groups.

Regarding the county of Cork having close to 100,0000 members and them all paying their taxes. A large proportion of them a children, so pay no taxes. However that's got feck all to do with it. Providing sports facilities is a solid investment whether they pay taxes or not.

RoyalCelt · 19-05-2014 9:08am

FrStone wrote: »

Oh I would make the same arguments about the Aviva etc. Should have been publicly funded and made available to all sports groups.

Regarding the county of Cork having close to 100,0000 members and them all paying their taxes. A large proportion of them a children, so pay no taxes. However that's got feck all to do with it. Providing sports facilities is a solid investment whether they pay taxes or not.

The thing is I'd argue the GAA have zero business to be playing in the Aviva just like the FAI and IRFU have zero business playing in the new PUC unless they rent it from the GAA.

Companies like google have saved hundreds of millions because our government has been very lenient to them. Should we all be allowed share their offices in Dublin? Prob a bad example but you get my poit.

And I realize many are kids but their parents pay taxes and a child not yet paying tax is more important to me than an adult who is.

clerk · 19-05-2014 9:35am

RoyalCelt wrote: »

The GAA would be so much better if the quarters and semi's didn't absolutely have to be played in Dublin.

You might be right and Bob Ryan was in "de papers" the other Day flying that kite.

However I doubt the punters who paid approx €1k+ per Year for a 10/5 Year ticket in Croke Park will be too happy to hear that the Quarters and semis may now be played in Cork. The poor Dubs would keel over for starters.

Likewise the Corporate boxes. It's not going to happen.

I don't know whether it's a bit of local politics or whatever with certain elections coming up

:rolleyes:

but I think it's a red herring. Can't seeing the GAA being able to facilitate it, certainly in the medium term, next 10 Years or so.

The fact is there will be very little, or perhaps no GAA matches in P ui C going forward that will require 45k tickets.

The best way to get serious revenue streams in would be Concerts, maybe Heineken Cup Quarters/Semis ( home draws and progress assumed ) and if P ui C ( and this a big IF as the set up stands ), gets it's health & safety and crowd segregation in order some UEFA matches. UEFA would happily give Cork a few matches if the stadium meets the standard. Then there is the Rugby WC, which we seem to be assuming we're getting ? and finally I think a pre-season friendly every 2 Years or so against the likes of United/Liverpool/Real/Barca etc would more or less fill the stadium.

In terms of GAA matches there will be little or nothing to fill it.

All the GAA haters and the Grab All Assoc signed up members are off target as their sports will be there too. If they don't like sports, tough !!:D it's a Sports stadium, that is allowed. The catcher is the Rye I suppose is that the GAA will own the stadium and will control the revenue streams but that's probably the way it's got to be ( even if we're all chucking in €30m ) and in fairness they do own the current creaky bowl.

Even if the dinosaurs succeed in keeping foreign sports out in the 21st Century, it's not sustainable, it won't last. That ship has sailed in any case.

clerk · 19-05-2014 9:39am

RoyalCelt wrote: »

They said the ew gaa pitch (center of excellence) will be used for local club and school games mostly.

Do you have a source on that bit of information ?

RoyalCelt · 19-05-2014 9:41am

clerk wrote: »

You might be right and Bob Ryan was in "de papers" the other Day flying that kite.

However I doubt the punters who paid approx €1k+ per Year for a 10/5 Year ticket in Croke Park will be too happy to hear that the Quarters and semis may now be played in Cork. The poor Dubs would keel over for starters. Likewise the Corporate boxes. It's not going to happen.

I don't know whether it's a bit of local politics or whatever with certain elections coming up :rolleyes: but I think it's a red herring. Can't seeing the GAA being able to facilitate it, certainly in the medium term, next 10 Years or so.

The fact is there will be very little, or perhaps no GAA matches in P ui C going forward that will require 45k tickets.

The best way to get serious revenue streams in would be Concerts, maybe Heineken Cup Quarters/Semis ( home draws and progress assumed ) and if P ui C ( and this a big IF as the set up stands ), gets it's health & safety and crowd segregation in order some UEFA matches. UEFA would happily give Cork a few matches if the stadium meets the standard. Then there is the Rugby WC, which we seem to be assuming we're getting ? and finally I think a pre-season friendly every 2 Years or so against the likes of United/Liverpool/Real/Barca etc would more or less fill the stadium.

In terms of GAA matches there will be little or nothing to fill it.

All the GAA haters and the Grab All Assoc signed up members are off target as their sports will be there too. If they don't like sports, tough !!:D it's a Sports stadium, that is allowed. The catcher is the Rye I suppose is that the GAA will own the stadium and will control the revenue streams but that's probably the way it's got to be ( even if we're all chucking in €30m ) and in fairness they do own the current creaky bowl.

Even if the dinosaurs succeed in keeping foreign sports out in the 21st Century, it's not sustainable, it won't last. That ship has sailed in any case.

On the rare occasion that you get a match up like kerry v limerick in a QF that would bring less than 10k to croker they really should fix that in munster. I see no reason why they can't offer the premium lads/corporate boxes free tickets to the game whether it be in thurles, killarney, limerick, PUC. Many a championship over the years would have been so ,much better if it weren't for them all bring in croker. You just can't expect massive crowds to always travel up.

clerk · 19-05-2014 10:10am

RoyalCelt wrote: »

On the rare occasion that you get a match up like kerry v limerick in a QF that would bring less than 10k to croker they really should fix that in munster. I see no reason why they can't offer the premium lads/corporate boxes free tickets to the game whether it be in thurles, killarney, limerick, PUC. Many a championship over the years would have been so ,much better if it weren't for them all bring in croker. You just can't expect massive crowds to always travel up.

Look as a Corkman it would be great if some of those matches would be held in P ui C and I agree it's very unfair on the GAA to expect Cork and Kerry fans to keep traveling up to Dublin all the time and indeed I have written to the relevant GAA authorities on that very issue over the Years and received responses.

But there a number of issues:
1] I'd imagine the terms and conditions of the 10 Year tickets are legally binding. I'm not sure 'free tickets' will compensate punters that have no interest in traveling up and down to Cork.
2] Most of the premium tickets are sold with a very good spread across the 32 Counties. Mostly to people with plenty of money made and used to getting what they want. Naturally a disproportionate amount of them are living and working in the De Capital making the jaunt to Croke Park, a nice afternoon out, have a few jars, maybe hook up with a few old buddies and back to the missus for circa 8/9. A trip to Cork is a totally different product for them.
3] I've been at the Quarters for the football 3 Years running and the attendance is circa 50k, that's with double headers. The premium section, if Dublin aren't playing is about half full ( even though the tickets are paid for !! ), i.e. you won't fill P ui C for a Football Quarter, you might ? fill it for a double header.
4] Given the choice can you see Ulster teams wanting to play in Cork as opposed to Croke Park ? Not going to happen.
5] Dubs - who will be in the Quarters for the next 10 Years at least - play in Cork

not going to happen.
6] Semi finals - no chance. Why would a team want to play the semi in Cork when the final is in Croke Park and meanwhile the Dubs are playing all their matches in Croke Park.
7] A Kerry v Limerick Quarter ( you mention above ) would bring about 12k to P Ui C. l'm not being smart when I say that. No Cork people/neutrals would go to it and Kerry only travel for finals - not a myth.

I wrote to the GAA ( HQ and Munster GAA - not CCB ) before to ask them to at least give Cork double headers in the qualifiers but they've done nothing for us. In fact they've shafted us on numerous occassions.

Reading between the lines teams don't want to play Cork in Cork because it would be a huge advantage to Cork.

RoyalCelt · 19-05-2014 10:29am

clerk wrote: »

Look as a Corkman it would be great if some of those matches would be held in P ui C and I agree it's very unfair on the GAA to expect Cork and Kerry fans to keep traveling up to Dublin all the time and indeed I have written to the relevant GAA authorities on that very issue over the Years and received responses.

But there a number of issues:
1] I'd imagine the terms and conditions of the 10 Year tickets are legally binding. I'm not sure 'free tickets' will compensate punters that have no interest in traveling up and down to Cork.
2] Most of the premium tickets are sold with a very good spread across the 32 Counties. Mostly to people with plenty of money made and used to getting what they want. Naturally a disproportionate amount of them are living and working in the De Capital making the jaunt to Croke Park, a nice afternoon out, have a few jars, maybe hook up with a few old buddies and back to the missus for circa 8/9. A trip to Cork is a totally different product for them.
3] I've been at the Quarters for the football 3 Years running and the attendance is circa 50k, that's with double headers. The premium section, if Dublin aren't playing is about half full ( even though the tickets are paid for !! ), i.e. you won't fill P ui C for a Football Quarter, you might ? fill it for a double header.
4] Given the choice can you see Ulster teams wanting to play in Cork as opposed to Croke Park ? Not going to happen.
5] Dubs - who will be in the Quarters for the next 10 Years at least - play in Cork not going to happen.
6] Semi finals - no chance. Why would a team want to play the semi in Cork when the final is in Croke Park and meanwhile the Dubs are playing all their matches in Croke Park.
7] A Kerry v Limerick Quarter ( you mention above ) would bring about 12k to P Ui C. l'm not being smart when I say that. No Cork people/neutrals would go to it and Kerry only travel for finals - not a myth.

I wrote to the GAA ( HQ and Munster GAA - not CCB ) before to ask them to at least give Cork double headers in the qualifiers but they've done nothing for us. In fact they've shafted us on numerous occassions.

Reading between the lines teams don't want to play Cork in Cork because it would be a huge advantage to Cork.

OK so what if starting next year all new season tickets have a contract that allows the gaa to play 1 football quarter final a year out of croke park?

clerk · 19-05-2014 12:02pm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

OK so what if starting next year all new season tickets have a contract that allows the gaa to play 1 football quarter final a year out of croke park?

Technically that might work.

I think that's what you would be looking at realistically.

You'd then have to wait until all the rights lapse so in 10 Years time you could proceed.

But firstly Croke Park/HQ will have to sign up ? Will they sign up to it ?

At the moment they haven't signed up to anything - in fact l'm pretty sure it's not even on an agenda for discussion. Not referring to you but it's not going to happen by magic, it will have to go through due process. Contrary to popular perception Cork GAA don't run the GAA which is perfectly clear from the fixtures in the last 5-10 Years in the qualifiers etc., e.g. the recent Tipp Q in the league/the Saturday night !!! Munster hurling final about 5 Years/no double headers in the qualifiers. In fact there is an air of negativity about Cork GAA in the GAA outside Cork unfortunately. Yeah, we get suspensions thrown out on technicalities, we're great at that, which of course attracts huge negativity towards Cork in the media and in my opinion from the GAA in general, outside Cork. Not that we care, but not good when we're going cap in hand up to HQ for a handout.

Then from a commercial point of view will it affect sales of the 5/10 Year tickets ? Will they have to reduce the price for punters not interested in going to Cork ?

Presumably the Quarter will involve Cork or Kerry. Sometimes the Quarters can be poor enough games. Sometimes they are good games.

I'd say you might get 30k at a Cork game and circa 15k for a Kerry game in P ui C for a football Quarter. Will be nice for Cork people and handy for Kerry but won't pay for the stadium. Might happen in circa 2025 if everybody gets behind it, if not it's sandcastles in the air.

The_Banker · 19-05-2014 1:07pm

I would have no problem with the GAA investing money in sports facilities (centre of excellence etc..) but what is happening here is that the stadium is a vanity project for one man. What is the point of building a 40k or 50k capacity stadium which will be competing against other 40K or 50K capacity stadiums in Munster for probably two games that will fill it every year.

National stadium development in this country is led by the GAA who have a county based stadium strategy that doesn’t even suit its own needs nationally..

For all their faults at least the FAI and IRFU worked together to develop the Lansdowne Rd which is an asset to the country.

The GAA have county based stadium plans rather than national ones and these vanity projects are pandered to by the government who throw money at them.

The GAA have their own stadium policy and because of that (as they are the biggest organization) we as a country and as taxpayers follow this policy to the detriment of all sports.
We are a small country of 4 million people yet in Munster alone we have 4 stadiums with capacity over 40,000 (Fitzgerald Stadium, Thurles, PUC & Limerick) and we also have Thomand Park and plans to redevelop Musgrave Park.
The first 4 wouldn’t get health and safety certificates in any other European Union Country outside of Ireland…

We here are looking at PUC from a Cork perspective. All stadiums being developed/built should be looked at from a National Perspective but as long as the government keeps throwing money at the GAA this will never happen.

who_me · 19-05-2014 2:17pm

I'm not a huge GAA fan, but I've no real problem if some Government (i.e. tax) funding is provided for the PuC. What annoys me is how it's almost twice the cost of Thomond and yet is a far less substantial redevelopment. Yes it's a bigger stadium, but only one stand is being completely rebuilt, and a roof added on the far side.

If it can be used for other events, it could bring in a lot of revenue to the city. It was estimated TP events have benefitted the local economy to the tune of €132m.

It's easy to say "it won't be used", but you won't really know either until it's built.

AugustusMinimus · 19-05-2014 3:21pm

who_me wrote: »

I'm not a huge GAA fan, but I've no real problem if some Government (i.e. tax) funding is provided for the PuC. What annoys me is how it's almost twice the cost of Thomond and yet is a far less substantial redevelopment. Yes it's a bigger stadium, but only one stand is being completely rebuilt, and a roof added on the far side.

If it can be used for other events, it could bring in a lot of revenue to the city. It was estimated TP events have benefitted the local economy to the tune of €132m.

It's easy to say "it won't be used", but you won't really know either until it's built.

The other stand is also being completely rebuilt. This nonsense of using the roof off the old stand and putting it on the other side of the pitch is also not true.

Limerick having 2 stadiums (Gaelic Grounds is a concrete monstrosity) is Limerick's problem.

The_Banker · 19-05-2014 3:40pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The other stand is also being completely rebuilt. This nonsense of using the roof off the old stand and putting it on the other side of the pitch is also not true.

Limerick having 2 stadiums (Gaelic Grounds is a concrete monstrosity) is Limerick's problem.

No, its a GAA problem and because successive Irish governments have been led by (and looked to) the GAA when it comes to stadium development it then becomes a national and a tax payers problem.

Each county wants to develop its own stadium without giving any thought to the over all state or need for stadiums in this country as a whole so we end up with white elephants like Limerick.

When was the last time Limerick was full? Or PUC for that matter?
It is probably a good thing that they werent as neither of the two are fit for purpose.

who_me · 19-05-2014 3:42pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The other stand is also being completely rebuilt. This nonsense of using the roof off the old stand and putting it on the other side of the pitch is also not true.

Limerick having 2 stadiums (Gaelic Grounds is a concrete monstrosity) is Limerick's problem.

Thanks. That never sounded right to me - that the roof was being 'moved'. I've seen some videos / timelapses of similar redevelopments, and the deconstruction stage is rarely subtle! It'd be far more complex/expensive to move a roof than tear it down and put up a new one.

So the far (North?) stand is being rebuilt too? In a way, that's a bit disappointing - I'd hoped the current plans were just the 1st phase and that stand would be redeveloped to a similar standard to the new stand on the South side. If the North stand is being redeveloped at the same time, it's probably the 'final' design.

clerk · 19-05-2014 4:02pm

The_Banker wrote: »

When was the last time Limerick was full? Or PUC for that matter?
It is probably a good thing that they werent as neither of the two are fit for purpose.

Well it was packed for the Boss concert and it was unbelievably dangerous leaving the place partly due to stadium design, but more so due to sheer imcompetence by the persons organising the event. Some good work ( bit of common sense ) by An Gardai ( not for the first time down there ) helped to save the Day.

As for a GAA match I can't remember the last time it was sold out, ever since they put juvenile seats in the entire main stand I don't think it has been sold out once.

clerk · 19-05-2014 4:06pm

The_Banker wrote: »

I would have no problem with the GAA investing money in sports facilities (centre of excellence etc..) but what is happening here is that the stadium is a vanity project for one man.

We here are looking at PUC from a Cork perspective. All stadiums being developed/built should be looked at from a National Perspective but as long as the government keeps throwing money at the GAA this will never happen.

I'd agree with the sentiment of your post.

clerk · 19-05-2014 4:13pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The other stand is also being completely rebuilt. This nonsense of using the roof off the old stand and putting it on the other side of the pitch is also not true.

Good to hear that.

Can anybody tell me how is this viewing area going to work, is the stadium going to be open every night at training ( or part of it ) so we can go up there to watch the training. :cool:

Will our view be obscured by the nets around the pitch ? Will there be seats in this viewing area or is standing room only ? Don't anybody know anything about the logic behind it ? and does any other stadium in the World have this facility ( and l've been to a few - no sign of viewing areas over training pitches

) because I've never seen or heard of the likes of it.

CHealy · 19-05-2014 4:15pm

The_Banker wrote: »

No, its a GAA problem and because successive Irish governments have been led by (and looked to) the GAA when it comes to stadium development it then becomes a national and a tax payers problem.

Each county wants to develop its own stadium without giving any thought to the over all state or need for stadiums in this country as a whole so we end up with white elephants like Limerick.

When was the last time Limerick was full? Or PUC for that matter?
It is probably a good thing that they werent as neither of the two are fit for purpose.

The Munster Final last year against our good selves was jammed.

kub · 19-05-2014 5:03pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I was saying if the Pairc had been relocated to Tramore Valley Park as some one else thought would be a good idea. Which of course it won't be.

Sorry I thought you were referring to Musgrave Park, or whatever they are calling it now.

AugustusMinimus · 19-05-2014 5:20pm

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on where they'd prefer a 45,000 capacity stadium to be located in Cork.

While the Pairc isn't the most accessible by car, it isn't that car from the city centre (15 or 20 minute walk) and it isn't in a residential area unlike, Turners Cross, Musgrave Park and Pairc Ui Rinn.

The planned bridge would help a lot once eventually built.

The_Banker · 19-05-2014 5:47pm

CHealy wrote: »

The Munster Final last year against our good selves was jammed.

The Attendance that day was 42,730 and the capacity is 49,866. It was the only game in the Munster Hurling Championship that came anywhere near selling out.

The other games in the Munster Hurling Championship in 2013 were...

Clare V Waterford 12,103 (played in Semple)
Limerick V Tipperary 19,507 (Played in Gaelic Grounds)
Cork V Clare 19,054 (Played in Gaelic Grounds)

I am unsure of the attendance at Fitzgerald Stadium for the 2013 football final but lets say it was capacity at 43,900....

That is only two games in the entire 2013 Munster Championchips (both hurling and football) where the attendance went above 20,000...

So we have 4 stadiums competing for roughly two games per year where attendances might actually fill it (and that doesnt include Ennis Cusack Park where the Clare Co Board want to build a bigger better stadium).

Surely ONE state of the art stadium in Munster should suffice?
But no, instead we have each county going off doing their own thing and then we are left with 4 substandard stadiums.

Utter madness

RoyalCelt · 19-05-2014 7:12pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The other stand is also being completely rebuilt. This nonsense of using the roof off the old stand and putting it on the other side of the pitch is also not true.

Limerick having 2 stadiums (Gaelic Grounds is a concrete monstrosity) is Limerick's problem.

where did that rumor come from?

And are they knocking down and rebuilding the terraces or what?

BUNK1982 · 19-05-2014 7:31pm

The_Banker wrote: »

The Attendance that day was 42,730 and the capacity is 49,866. It was the only game in the Munster Hurling Championship that came anywhere near selling out.

The other games in the Munster Hurling Championship in 2013 were...

Clare V Waterford 12,103 (played in Semple)
Limerick V Tipperary 19,507 (Played in Gaelic Grounds)
Cork V Clare 19,054 (Played in Gaelic Grounds)

I am unsure of the attendance at Fitzgerald Stadium for the 2013 football final but lets say it was capacity at 43,900....

That is only two games in the entire 2013 Munster Championchips (both hurling and football) where the attendance went above 20,000...

So we have 4 stadiums competing for roughly two games per year where attendances might actually fill it (and that doesnt include Ennis Cusack Park where the Clare Co Board want to build a bigger better stadium).

Surely ONE state of the art stadium in Munster should suffice?
But no, instead we have each county going off doing their own thing and then we are left with 4 substandard stadiums.

Utter madness

I'm not doubting the validity of your argument with regard to there being no coherent plan around GAA stadia but from a purely Cork-centric point of view, I think a stadium like the proposed PuC development will benefit everyone.

Unlike all the previous examples - Cork City has greater metro population of around 300k and over 500k within the county.

As previously stayed, there are parts of the plan I can't fathom at all but from a Cork GAA/ County/ City need something done with the current site.

Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

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