National Postcodes to be introduced

Stinicker · 19-04-2010 11:07pm

dbyrne wrote: »

take one of the roads off TempleVille road, templeogue in dublin. The road has been name L8412 by the council recently. if the councils all over ireland are doing this would it not be easy to make up the address, 25 L8412, where the house number is 25 and the street code is L8412. to me that makes sense.

If they want to introduce the postal code system then why not just extend the British system over the Irish map and keep us in Sync with both the UK standard and more importantly the Northern Irish system. Joined up thinking like this is what we need not wasting millions developing something that has been tried and tested in the UK for decades and works well.

L1011 · 19-04-2010 11:10pm

Stinicker wrote: »

If they want to introduce the postal code system then why not just extend the British system over the Irish map and keep us in Sync with both the UK standard and more importantly the Northern Irish system. Joined up thinking like this is what we need not wasting millions developing something that has been tried and tested in the UK for decades and works well.

There's limited space within the UK postcode system to do this without causing clashes, D- is left empty for Dublin but otherwise it'd be a case of nicking random letter combos

copacetic · 19-04-2010 11:12pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hi-tech-postcode-system-considered-116078.html#ixzz0jtA622f7

Sounds promising.

Hard to see how them using random meaningless buzzwords like 'internet mapping and iphones' is promising.

The committee has recommended "a unique identifier system" for individual properties incorporating technologies such as internet mapping and iPhones.

wtf do they think that means? lets incorporate those new phone yolks into the maps, and put the internet in there too. deadly.

L1011 · 19-04-2010 11:16pm

Sounds like journo gibberish to me.

murphaph · 20-04-2010 8:02am

Stinicker wrote: »

If they want to introduce the postal code system then why not just extend the British system over the Irish map and keep us in Sync with both the UK standard and more importantly the Northern Irish system. Joined up thinking like this is what we need not wasting millions developing something that has been tried and tested in the UK for decades and works well.

I think the NI postcodes are a simplified form of the GB system, which they "get away with" because NI is relatively small. To incorporate the RoI into the UK system (and I don't really see a massive advantage to extending an old fashioned system when modern GPS technologies should be able to provide a far more useful way of doing it) would probably require a re-postcoding of NI and that would not be popular there (remember the uproar across the UK when telephone numbers changed and companies had to have stationery and signage amended at great expense?

redalicat · 20-04-2010 8:52am

dbyrne wrote: »

take one of the roads off TempleVille road, templeogue in dublin. The road has been name L8412 by the council recently. if the councils all over ireland are doing this would it not be easy to make up the address, 25 L8412, where the house number is 25 and the street code is L8412. to me that makes sense.

Yes, if you have a house number. I'm out in the country in a house with no name, no number, but other houses in close proximity that are the same colour. Makes getting deliveries quite difficult.

ForiegnNational · 20-04-2010 1:02pm

I live up what can only be described as a Borreen, off a lane, off an 'L' road, with no house number, therefore using a system such as 25 L12356 will simply not work in the countryside!

You need a system that converts back to a Lat/Long location, that way they can easily be loaded into your SatNav system (there are many systems that convert lat/long to a POI). I know that when people currently use their SatNav's to find us, they end up 40+km away at yet another place in West Cork with the same townland name.

I even wrote the www.epostcode.ie site as a demonstration, because I was so, ****, ahem, annoyed at the governments inability to do something as simple as a post code system themselves.

There are other good postcode sites, such as http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/, why is it taking the government so long to do something that private individuals such as myself can do in two evenings?

spacetweek · 20-04-2010 5:19pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

There are other good postcode sites, such as http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/, why is it taking the government so long to do something that private individuals such as myself can do in two evenings?

I know you have your little system to plug here, but please try to understand that others may not love it as much as you do.

This is why we're having a tender - the minister takes everyone's (not just your) design "asks" into consideration, then gets a company to come up with the solution.

D.L.R. · 20-04-2010 6:25pm

redalicat wrote: »

Yes, if you have a house number. I'm out in the country in a house with no name, no number, but other houses in close proximity that are the same colour. Makes getting deliveries quite difficult.

Why don't you name your house and put up a sign? Or paint your house...

redalicat · 20-04-2010 6:49pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why don't you name your house and put up a sign? Or paint your house...

Because I'm the tenant, not the owner.

Were it mine, I'd change the colour, put up a sign AND name the place. But not for the price the landlord wants to sell it at. He seems to think we're still at the height of the boom.

Aard · 20-04-2010 7:12pm

spacetweek wrote: »

I know you have your little system to plug here, but please try to understand that others may not love it as much as you do.

This is why we're having a tender - the minister takes everyone's (not just your) design "asks" into consideration, then gets a company to come up with the solution.

Tbh I think he just wants to demonstrate how simple it is to devise a system, and is frustrated as to why it's taking so long.

ForiegnNational · 21-04-2010 11:56am

Aard wrote: »

Tbh I think he just wants to demonstrate how simple it is to devise a system, and is frustrated as to why it's taking so long.

Thanks for clarifying Aard. This is simple frustration, Post Codes are EASY to design, you just have to tell everybody what theirs is is the only hard bit!

It is just yet another example of how the government consistently shows it cannot grasp simple infrastructure (another example being the Digital TV switchover - covered very well on the tech thread).

I am not trying to sell anything here, I simply put together basic bits of code and paid, off my own back, to get a website up to show how easy it is!

In fact it took more time proving why I deserved a .ie web address than it did to write the code to generate the postcodes!

Roryhy · 21-04-2010 12:14pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

In fact it took more time proving why I deserved a .ie web address than it did to write the code to generate the postcodes!

Getting a .ie is a pain!

dbyrne · 24-04-2010 10:23pm

I think my example is an easy straight forward way of introducing a postode system without wasting millions, which the government will naturally do, introducing a long winded system that is not practicle, doesnt work or only brings you to an area and not an exact house. I just think a system that uses what is there already instead of reinventing the wheel is the way to go. Then again if the UK system works just copy it, again dont reinvent the wheel.

Just say there are 1 million propertys/commercial buildings in Ireland, just a figure plucked out of the air. If 800,000 or 900,000 of these have numbers, address etc why should they be punished for the few that dont. It would be much easier to give those few numbers that dont then punish the majority that do.

I use a sat nav system with work, everytime i go to a new client I map them in the satnav at their front door so that we can get an exact delivery address. Over the years of doing this the locations have moved to 2 or 3 doors down or accross the road. It must be to do with the better quality of giving exact locations compared to the past but this a problem none the less.

L1011 · 25-04-2010 3:00am

Postcodes generated purely off coordinates are about as much use for logistics purposes as no postcodes though, ForeignNational. A postcode system HAS to be laid out based on where places are served from and not pure location to actually deliver benefits.

25-04-2010 8:16am

MYOB wrote: »

Postcodes generated purely off coordinates are about as much use for logistics purposes as no postcodes though, ForeignNational. A postcode system HAS to be laid out based on where places are served from and not pure location to actually deliver benefits.

Agree, Any system should be based on regionl "hubs", which is how most of the worlds post code systems currently in use are based.

i.e. the first one or two characters are the regional town, then a sub-division (village), then a road(s) finally a building or group of buildings.

From a logistics point of view, it's easy to batch deliveries using such a system.

dermothickey · 25-04-2010 8:39am

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth here. Do we need postcodes? There is 4 and a half million people living here and 1.9 million houses. What's the point it's worked properly enough before introducing a postcode system will just make it difficult for people to post letters to Auntie aggie in crumlin.

25-04-2010 8:57am

dermothickey wrote: »

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth here. Do we need postcodes? There is 4 and a half million people living here and 1.9 million houses. What's the point it's worked properly enough before introducing a postcode system will just make it difficult for people to post letters to Auntie aggie in crumlin.

Postcodes are used in addition to the original address so will not hamper post to "Auntie aggie in crumlin" unless you put on the wrong code.
Postcodes are primarily used to improve the efficiency of bulk mail transfer between different regions.

I know from experience that even though I live in county Roscommon, my post is quicker if I have Westmeath on the address. One parcel took about a week to reach me because I had the address as Athlone, Co Roscommon. The Athlone deliveries are sorted in Dublin and the Roscommon deliveries in Sligo. The parcel went to and fro between Dublin and Sligo about 5 times before I found out and told them to "move" me to westmeath! :rolleyes:

That's why we need postcodes.

Jayuu · 26-04-2010 1:46am

Not to mention the advantage of postcodes for emergency services and satnavs.

With regard to generating postcodes from Lat/Lon co-ordinates how would such a system cope with apartment blocks where different floors would have the same co-ordinates?

Neworder79 · 26-04-2010 11:15am

Postcodes are also a big issue for eCommerce and web businesses. I've worked on web stores in the UK/US and users just take for granted entering a postcode to get delivery/availability/store information or to map the user to a location very easily which can have huge benefits. Thy can also reduce the amount of form filling needed where a postcode can fill in most of the data needed.

To do this on Irish websites sites required more complex and off putting address forms for the user to fill in and cost time and money for businesses subscribe to address databases like the An Post geo directory, so many sites don't bother and are some times less useful because of it.

AndrewMc · 26-04-2010 2:28pm

MYOB wrote: »

Postcodes generated purely off coordinates are about as much use for logistics purposes as no postcodes though, ForeignNational. A postcode system HAS to be laid out based on where places are served from and not pure location to actually deliver benefits.

That's assuming everyone wants to organise their deliveries based on the same hubs, which isn't true. Base it on coordinates and let the company's software decide the best route. A call-out service, like appliance repairs or car recovery, might choose different hubs based on where the engineer will also be that same day, and could change from day to day.

L1011 · 26-04-2010 10:05pm

AndrewMc wrote: »

That's assuming everyone wants to organise their deliveries based on the same hubs, which isn't true. Base it on coordinates and let the company's software decide the best route. A call-out service, like appliance repairs or car recovery, might choose different hubs based on where the engineer will also be that same day, and could change from day to day.

No, its not.

With a geographic-overlaid system you can figure out where places are irrespective of where your hubs are.

With a coordinates based system, you can't do this reliably *at all*. There is a reason there is nowhere in the world using a coordinates based system...

ForiegnNational · 27-04-2010 1:11pm

MYOB wrote: »

No, its not.
With a coordinates based system, you can't do this reliably *at all*. There is a reason there is nowhere in the world using a coordinates based system...

I'm not going to argue the point, I agree with you that a "proper" postcode system is required. All I care about is that at present, I am being held hostage by An Post for deliveries because none of the international courier companies can find addresses in the countryside.

I really don't care about the system chosen, I just wish somebody somewhere in Government could organise a "drinking-session-in-a-brewery"...

I will simply reiterate that it is NOT hard to devise a system, no matter what method you use! You just have to tell people what their postcode is!

L1011 · 27-04-2010 6:12pm

A quickly designed system only provides the "where somewhere is", not the "where somewhere in in relation to the other 150000 postcodes" though...

ForiegnNational · 27-04-2010 11:20pm

MYOB wrote: »

A quickly designed system only provides the "where somewhere is", not the "where somewhere in in relation to the other 150000 postcodes" though...

Now I know you are taking the preverbial...

6th November 2002 - ComReg published a consultation paper on the Regulation of Postal Services. The paper invited opinions on a number of issues including the possible introduction of postcodes

ODTR 09/25 - page 5
Apart from Greece, Ireland is the only European member state that does not use a postal coding system.

Dublin 23 May 2005 - The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Noel Dempsey T.D., has today announced that postcodes will be introduced in Ireland by 1st January 2008.

Just how slowly would you like this system to cater for under 1 million unique addresses designed, would one, two or three decades be your preference.:rolleyes:

L1011 · 28-04-2010 12:06am

It could be designed in a very short space of time. The delay to date has been over deciding whether to have one, NOT designing one.

A purely geographical one is about as much use as asking people to put their OSI map reference down instead. In fact, why don't we just use that if we're going down that route...

ForiegnNational · 29-04-2010 1:21pm

MYOB wrote: »

The delay to date has been over deciding whether to have one...

People making the decisions obviously live in a large Town or City, on a named street, with a house number and therefore have an option other than An Post for deliveries!

GerardKeating · 29-04-2010 2:16pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

ODTR 09/25 - page 5
Apart from Greece, Ireland is the only European member state that does not use a postal coding system.

Some we have something else in common with them, maybe there is an connection ?

Carawaystick · 30-04-2010 1:14am

France has a post code system - 5 numbers, the first two being the county leaving less than a thousand numbers for the code.

They just name everywhere so the postman knows where it is. Everywhere in a town of 10k or so has the same postcode. they just don't allow replication of street names n the same postcode. How it works in the country I've no idea.

Seems similar to here really.

baalthor · 30-04-2010 2:28am

Carawaystick wrote: »

France has a post code system - 5 numbers, the first two being the county leaving less than a thousand numbers for the code.

They just name everywhere so the postman knows where it is. Everywhere in a town of 10k or so has the same postcode. they just don't allow replication of street names n the same postcode. How it works in the country I've no idea.

Seems similar to here really.

Most countries assign names or numbers to rural roads. Then they assign individual numbers to houses or properties on each road. You can number each house sequentially (1,2,3 etc) or use a metric system (e.g. the road is blocked off in 10m segments so house no.15 is 150 metres from the start).

As others have mentioned, there is no reason why we couldn't use a system like this for addresses in rural areas along with zip type postal codes for the whole country.
Just like everywhere else in the developed world basically.

Here are some examples of addresses from Cavan and Monaghan ...

Alun · 30-04-2010 10:56am

In the Netherlands every single road, whether in a city or in the country has a name, and every single building has a number, even if it's the only house on a road 5km long.

ardmacha · 30-04-2010 3:43pm

A purely geographical one is about as much use as asking people to put their OSI map reference down instead. In fact, why don't we just use that if we're going down that route...

Precisely. No need for made up names of roads to suit couriers, which would be disastrous as it has been in NI. Just use a coordinate, perhaps you could just some of the digits and county code e.g. instead of using 123456 067333 you could have something like MH234-673. Postcodes as used in many places are an obsolete pre-computer concept, lets move on.

L1011 · 01-05-2010 2:32am

ardmacha wrote: »

Precisely. No need for made up names of roads to suit couriers, which would be disastrous as it has been in NI. Just use a coordinate, perhaps you could just some of the digits and county code e.g. instead of using 123456 067333 you could have something like MH234-673. Postcodes as used in many places are an obsolete pre-computer concept, lets move on.

You're missing my point entirely.

A coordinate based system lets you FIND places. It doesn't provide any of the (massive) advantages for logistics of knowing where somewhere *is* from its postcode. Look at the "Athlone, Co. Roscommon" problem as mentioned on this thread. A geo-postcode does sweet **** all to fix this. A proper postcode system elimates the problem entirely - for here, for "Drogheda, Co. Meath", "Dublin 15, Co. Meath", "Leixlip, Co. Dublin", etc, etc...

Dubluc · 01-05-2010 9:52pm

MYOB wrote: »

You're missing my point entirely.

A coordinate based system lets you FIND places. It doesn't provide any of the (massive) advantages for logistics of knowing where somewhere *is* from its postcode. Look at the "Athlone, Co. Roscommon" problem as mentioned on this thread. A geo-postcode does sweet **** all to fix this. A proper postcode system elimates the problem entirely - for here, for "Drogheda, Co. Meath", "Dublin 15, Co. Meath", "Leixlip, Co. Dublin", etc, etc...

Just want to add my tuppence worth here. MYOB I don't mean to insult but these are not problems as such. Here's why. The smallest geographical area in Ireland is the townland. The next biggest is the Electoral District, the next biggest is the District Electoral Division and the next biggest is the Administrative County. Each geographical area is by definition within a defined townland, ED, DED and Administrative County.

Following my argument therefore for example Leixlip is not in Co. Dublin. However a particular townland near Leixlip which is in South Dublin might be near Leixlip but should not have a Leixlip address just because someone decides they want to have a Leixlip address.

To further follow my argument if I for example posted a letter with such a spurious address it should not be delivered or accepted.

It is the case that the placenames section of the Rural Dept (Eamon O Cuiv's old dept I don't know it's new name) has done a lot of work on the Irish names of townlands and published Statutory instuments with official translations. In a similar way each ED, DED and county is made up of defined named subordinate entities named in each official language.

In most cases the ED is left out of addresses and the DED has the name of the town or village with the local post office. Each townland should be 'tied' to a town in it's DED.

It should be therefore simple enough to have databases with this information and force everyone to comply. If wrong county on address then letters not delivered. If wrong post office town no delivery. If wrong county no delivery. People would soon comply when the important post wasn't delivered a few times and it cost them money.

The post code then could be some sort of grid within each townland making it easy to subdivide and find each house group of houses or whatever.

All of this would build on what is used already with little variation on things as they presently stand. In county border areas it might mean the 'local' post office changing in some cases. Those of us like myself who like local townlands would be accomodated and the and the subdivision by grid of the townlands would mean that the postie and the delivery guy could finally tell Tom Jones' place from his brother Jack's place over the road.

There would also be the added bonus if addresses were strictly adhered to that if for example Limerick City boundary wanted to expand into it's hinterland in Clare that the boundary could easily be legally changed. It would mean that the legal address would change to a different county in this case from Clare to Limerick City. Those who for traditional sporting reasons or whatever wanted to continue calling themselves Clare people could follow the traditional boundary for all non civic or administrative purposes but in dealing with the postal or civic authorities would have to comply with any change (No insult to Clare people or Limerick I just picked it as an example)

By way of comparison I doubt there are any places along the international border with Northern Ireland where people in for example Co. Louth claim that their physical address in Co. Louth is actually the other side of the border in Co. Down! (I'm not making any comment one way or the other on the rights wrongs or otherwise of why the border is there just the de facto position)

Hope this is easily followed by all. In cities same applies everywhere is in a townland of some sort if you go back to old maps!

baalthor · 02-05-2010 3:26am

Dubluc wrote: »

Just want to add my tuppence worth here. MYOB I don't mean to insult but these are not problems as such. Here's why. The smallest geographical area in Ireland is the townland. The next biggest is the Electoral District, the next biggest is the District Electoral Division and the next biggest is the Administrative County. Each geographical area is by definition within a defined townland, ED, DED and Administrative County.

Actually the DED is next up from the townland. Electoral Districts (or Electoral Areas) are much larger and are used for the purpose of dividing counties up for local elections. Neither DEDs or EAs have formed part of the address system in Ireland.

Here are a list of all the Irish geographical divisions (used by the state) that I can think of:

Townland
Electoral Division
Civil Parish
Barony
Rural District
Urban District
Electoral Area
Administrative County
Region
Province

These were introduced at different times for various purposes

Dubluc wrote: »

Following my argument therefore for example Leixlip is not in Co. Dublin. However a particular townland near Leixlip which is in South Dublin might be near Leixlip but should not have a Leixlip address just because someone decides they want to have a Leixlip address.

The official addressing system for postal deliveries in Ireland did not always follow the adminsitrative county boundaries. The delivery area of a main post office could sometimes cross county boundaries.
Hence the official address of Bailiebrough PO, Co Cavan was (or is?) :
Bailieborough PO
Kells
Co Meath

In the past, people who wanted faster delivery would use the Post Office address hierarchy rather than the standard county one. This may explain Leixlip, County Dublin.

Dubluc wrote: »

To further follow my argument if I for example posted a letter with such a spurious address it should not be delivered or accepted.

It is the case that the placenames section of the Rural Dept (Eamon O Cuiv's old dept I don't know it's new name) has done a lot of work on the Irish names of townlands and published Statutory instuments with official translations. In a similar way each ED, DED and county is made up of defined named subordinate entities named in each official language.

In most cases the ED is left out of addresses and the DED has the name of the town or village with the local post office. Each townland should be 'tied' to a town in it's DED.

As I understand it the standard address format is:

1. Townland / Street / Road
2. Local Post Office
3. Postal Town
4. County

Nowadays you only need 1, 3 and 4 although lots of people still use 2.

I don't think the address system was built around EDs but of course the POs often share names with EDs

An interesting feature of our addressing system is its flexibilty. You can have different people in the same house actually using different addresses!

Dubluc wrote: »

It should be therefore simple enough to have databases with this information and force everyone to comply. If wrong county on address then letters not delivered. If wrong post office town no delivery. If wrong county no delivery. People would soon comply when the important post wasn't delivered a few times and it cost them money.

A pubicly available address database is a really good idea, refusing to deliver mail because the address is "wrong" is not.
Most postal companies are proud of the efforts they go to in trying to deliver mail to people like "Mr Jones, Cork"

Dubluc wrote: »

The post code then could be some sort of grid within each townland making it easy to subdivide and find each house group of houses or whatever.

All of this would build on what is used already with little variation on things as they presently stand. In county border areas it might mean the 'local' post office changing in some cases. Those of us like myself who like local townlands would be accomodated and the and the subdivision by grid of the townlands would mean that the postie and the delivery guy could finally tell Tom Jones' place from his brother Jack's place over the road.

Once again I would advise copying the example of pretty much every other country in assigning numbers to houses in rural areas (roads already have numbers). You can then distinguish one house from the other even without a satnav.

Combine this with numerical zip codes and it doesn't matter very much what else the sender writes on the envelope.

Dubluc · 02-05-2010 3:50pm

baalthor wrote: »

Actually the DED is next up from the townland. Electoral Districts (or Electoral Areas) are much larger and are used for the purpose of dividing counties up for local elections. Neither DEDs or EAs have formed part of the address system in Ireland.

Here are a list of all the Irish geographical divisions (used by the state) that I can think of:

Townland
Electoral Division
Civil Parish
Barony
Rural District
Urban District
Electoral Area
Administrative County
Region
Province

These were introduced at different times for various purposes

The official addressing system for postal deliveries in Ireland did not always follow the adminsitrative county boundaries. The delivery area of a main post office could sometimes cross county boundaries.
Hence the official address of Bailiebrough PO, Co Cavan was (or is?) :
Bailieborough PO
Kells
Co Meath

In the past, people who wanted faster delivery would use the Post Office address hierarchy rather than the standard county one. This may explain Leixlip, County Dublin.

As I understand it the standard address format is:

1. Townland / Street / Road
2. Local Post Office
3. Postal Town
4. County

Nowadays you only need 1, 3 and 4 although lots of people still use 2.

I don't think the address system was built around EDs but of course the POs often share names with EDs

I realise I got the hierarchy of the system slightly wrong but it doesn't change the point about each being made up of defined subordinates. I realise also that the system was not (probably) built around EDs but they are a handy existing structure to use which i suspect in most cases coincide in name with the local post office as you acknowledge!

An interesting feature of our addressing system is its flexibilty. You can have different people in the same house actually using different addresses! .

Yes and no. I agree that this adds to the quaintness of our system however it also adds to my argument that people should not be allowed to add what they want to their address. The two people in this hypothetical situation mean that at least one of them is using the wrong address. Very annoying if you are trying to locate them and you don't have the local knowledge to let you know it's the same place. Your defined address by simple geography related to the map and the hirearchy of items 1,2 and 4 as you call them or Townland, related town (ED) and admin county creates a uniformity we can depend on enough to be reliable. Then if the townland is subdivided by grid, a combination of road names/numbers and house numbers we can all follow it fairly simply. [/QUOTE]

A pubicly available address database is a really good idea, refusing to deliver mail because the address is "wrong" is not.
Most postal companies are proud of the efforts they go to in trying to deliver mail to people like "Mr Jones, Cork"

I only mean to refuse in the extreme cases where persistent refusal to accept the correct address lingers. Obviously genuine errors would be tolerated however a publically available list of post town on the website of An post with their associated townlands and streets on drop down menus would in most cases solve this. The knowledge of the post code in addition would mean that a simple check for most addresses would meant that only in cases where you had no internet access or access to a copy of a reference book listing the data (not people's names and addresses for the avoidance of confusion), would there be a problem.

I admire, like you, the efforts of people in various areas to ensure deliveries but isn't the type of example you quote just what a postcode is intended to avoid aswell as the unnecessary expense! Postcode or no, occasional examples will persist.

This would also have the added advantage of ensuring that someone in for example Dublin 15 was not sold a house in Clonee which is given a 'nicer' address because of proximity (no offence intended to people in either D15 or Clonee).

Once again I would advise copying the example of pretty much every other country in assigning numbers to houses in rural areas (roads already have numbers). You can then distinguish one house from the other even without a satnav.

Combine this with numerical zip codes and it doesn't matter very much what else the sender writes on the envelope.

Again we seem largely in agreement. The practicalities of sorting out a numbering system in rural areas would be the issue and also making sure people displayed it prominently. The road names and or numbers are already there just in rural areas the necessity is to complete the public numbering of local roads.

Basically I feel most of the roots of a good system are already there. If we build on our relatively unique address system tidy up the loose bits here and there and tag the postcode as sort of checking system and location finder we have it sorted.

My real point is that the postcode would be an easily understood tag on to the existing system if people's latitude for spurious addresses as now exists was tightened up.

spacetweek · 06-05-2010 5:41pm

dermothickey wrote: »

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth here. Do we need postcodes? There is 4 and a half million people living here and 1.9 million houses. What's the point it's worked properly enough before introducing a postcode system will just make it difficult for people to post letters to Auntie aggie in crumlin.

Liechtenstein is 35,000 people and has postcodes.

Yes, you absolutely need them. They're used for emergency services, food deilvery, parcels, census data, marketing, etc. Sending letters is only a small part of it.

murpho999 · 07-05-2010 3:20am

dermothickey wrote: »

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth here. Do we need postcodes? There is 4 and a half million people living here and 1.9 million houses. What's the point it's worked properly enough before introducing a postcode system will just make it difficult for people to post letters to Auntie aggie in crumlin.

spacetweek wrote: »

Liechtenstein is 35,000 people and has postcodes.

Yes, you absolutely need them. They're used for emergency services, food deilvery, parcels, census data, marketing, etc. Sending letters is only a small part of it.

Totally agree with spacetweek.

Last week I had to go to the following address.

"Silly Pretentious House Name"
Brownstown
Co Dublin.

I challenge you to find that. It's in the Swords area. Phone calls telling me to turn left at cowsheds and hedges proved infuriating.

I can't understand people arguing against them, the rest of the world has them for years so Ireland is clearly in the minority and in the wrong.

Carawaystick · 09-05-2010 10:13pm

So is your issue you didn't have a good enough map to find Brownstown?
If there was a postcode how would you find Brownstown? you still need some kind of map, be it a satnav, or something. How would you find the house name with a postcode?

L1011 · 09-05-2010 11:32pm

I think his point is that "Brownstown" refers to a massive area with no signage to show where house names are. Putting it in to a satnav could bring you to the other side of the townland.

Postcodes on a satnav would bring either to the specific house or within a very close area of it.

murpho999 · 09-05-2010 11:46pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

So is your issue you didn't have a good enough map to find Brownstown?
If there was a postcode how would you find Brownstown? you still need some kind of map, be it a satnav, or something. How would you find the house name with a postcode?

Brownstown is a rural townland that covers a few square kilometers. The issue is not mapping, as paper maps don't show houses, but incorrect and inadequate addressing. A postcode that you would put into a satnav (paper maps & are things of the past for me) would get me to the correct place.

Also, this thing about house names really annoys me. Why do people insist on giving their 3 bed semi a name like 'Pine Hurst' or 'Tivoro' instead of a number and then also lots of named houses don't even have the name of the house on a sign outside. Totally pretentious and ridiculous.

Cannot understand why people are against post codes. Ireland is completely in the minority on this issue. Third World countries have post code systems so why do people think they are a bad idea?

EvilMonkey · 10-05-2010 12:41am

spacetweek wrote: »

Liechtenstein is 35,000 people and has postcodes.

Yes, you absolutely need them. They're used for emergency services, food deilvery, parcels, census data, marketing, etc. Sending letters is only a small part of it.

We already have all of these, so why do we need postcodes.
The only advantage of postcodes is it makes it cheaper for business, and we can be spammed easer with junk mail.

antoinolachtnai · 10-05-2010 12:51am

Well, for emergency services, for one thing, it is very hard for ambulance staff to find the right area or the right house. Difficulties finding the correct house are very common and this is a big problem in an emergency situation.

Equally, it is difficult for utilities to find the right house in an area they hardly ever visit, when there are no specific addresses. This means extra time is spent, and the extra time is ultimately passed on to customers in their utility bills.

Equally, we already get spam and junk mail, even though we don't have postcodes.

L1011 · 10-05-2010 1:00am

EvilMonkey wrote: »

We already have all of these, so why do we need postcodes.
The only advantage of postcodes is it makes it cheaper for business, and we can be spammed easer with junk mail.

Cost.

The HUGE extra costs of dealing with logistics in this country are passed directly back on to consumers.

The need for us to have countless small regional emergency service dispatch centres for "local knowledge" rather than centralised ones is passed directly back to us in taxes.

The extra costs for delivery services are passed on to us in higher prices for couriers/parcel delivery.

And so on.

EvilMonkey · 10-05-2010 1:26am

So when we get postcodes deliveries will be cheaper? Yeah right.

The goverment can then close a load of Fire stations, Garda stations, Post offices. Sounds like a great deal for rural areas they will be more isolated but at least have efficent deliveries.

And pay the unemployment benefits of the locals that used to work in the local dispatch centres, out of the taxes saved.

I wont hold my breth for the reduced taxes and delivery prices.

Jayuu · 10-05-2010 1:27am

EvilMonkey wrote: »

We already have all of these, so why do we need postcodes.
The only advantage of postcodes is it makes it cheaper for business, and we can be spammed easer with junk mail.

The argument that its easier to spam is complete rubbish (as is the SPAM!). Either junk mail is simply posted without any address on it, or its sent because people have subscribed to a service in which case they've given their address already.

As for it making things cheaper for business, well I think that reducing overheads for business is generally considered a good thing. Although I'm not sure exactly how postcodes do this.

If postcodes are so bad then why does practically every single country in Europe have them?

L1011 · 10-05-2010 1:32am

EvilMonkey wrote: »

So when we get postcodes deliveries will be cheaper? Yeah right.

Almost certainly.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The goverment can then close a load of Fire stations, Garda stations, Post offices. Sounds like a great deal for rural areas they will be more isolated but at least have efficent deliveries.

Stop deliberately misrepresenting what I've said.

ForiegnNational · 10-05-2010 12:41pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

So when we get postcodes deliveries will be cheaper? Yeah right.

EvilMonkey, you obviously live in a town on a named street with a house number. You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about when it comes to problems with deliveries.

Spam is still delivered, even without a post code. An Post happily take the money and run when it comes to junk mail.

The problem is down to lack of choice (of delivery services) and frustration for myself and every professional body that does not live within 1/2 a mile and know my family history better than I do!

Personally I have had problems with parcel delivery, workmen (turned up in a similarly named townland 45km away) and just about every company that provides goods to the home (builders merchants, stone quarries, etc, etc, etc).

If it was such a bad idea, why are we and Greece the only countries without them?

EvilMonkey · 10-05-2010 2:38pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

EvilMonkey, you obviously live in a town on a named street with a house number. You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about when it comes to problems with deliveries.

Spam is still delivered, even without a post code. An Post happily take the money and run when it comes to junk mail.

The problem is down to lack of choice (of delivery services) and frustration for myself and every professional body that does not live within 1/2 a mile and know my family history better than I do!

Personally I have had problems with parcel delivery, workmen (turned up in a similarly named townland 45km away) and just about every company that provides goods to the home (builders merchants, stone quarries, etc, etc, etc).

If it was such a bad idea, why are we and Greece the only countries without them?

No I live in an unnamed/unnumbered house outside a village on an R road.
I have never had a problem with deliveries.
I have had a fridge, furniture, kitchen delivered recently along with equipment from a hire company with no problems.
When i cancelled my TV years ago Chorus had no problem finding my house to remove their equipment.

In my work I'm often sent to unknown areas to houses/businesses. I am usually able to find them. If I'm going far i would usually call to make sure there would be someone in, so its no problem to ask for directions. If its local i would have a fairly good idea where im going(as i would expect any delivery driver) It doesn't cost my employer much more if i cant find the place immediately, apart from a cheap phone call and maybe a few € extra petrol money(that would probably be claimed anyway

)

Postcodes wont make call out charges cheaper for any customers i call to.

Regarding junk mail I said it would be easier, not that there would be any more or less of it.

I also never said post codes were a bad idea.

They are not necessary in my opinion.
The recent widespread adoption of mobile phones. Almost anyone is contactable and it doesn't cost that much to call and get directions.

Most countries that have postcodes adopted them before anyone could be easily and cheaply contacted.

When we do get postcodes don't expect services to be cheaper, you need competition for that.

ForiegnNational · 10-05-2010 3:14pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

When i cancelled my TV years ago Chorus had no problem finding my house to remove their equipment.

If you can get Chorus / cable, you are not too remote EvilMonkey! We don't have mains water or sewerage within 2km, so cable is a dream!

EvilMonkey wrote: »

When we do get postcodes don't expect services to be cheaper, you need competition for that.

Now you have cracked it, without postcodes, we have no competition... Until competition have the ability to cheaply locate you and plan delivery routes centrally (rather than as you have to do, go to a rough area and call ahead), prices will not come down...

National Postcodes to be introduced

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