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National Postcodes to be introduced

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24567…295

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    #32
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Canada makes do with 6 letters/nos. for a massive land mass. US manages with 5 numeric.

    Ireland, which you could drop into Northern Ontario and forget where you put it, needs 6 - linked to the GAA jersey. It's that kind of madness that got us Dublin 6 "West"

    Before you start over-reacting on how many characters are used - surely you must first decide what resolution it should have. Once you have decided resolution and therefore what problems it will solve and how easily it can be adopted/implemented, then you can start talking about numbers of characters and what it looks like.

    There is more to this than just "how many characters will we have and what will it look like" - pity not too many folk are looking behind the characters. Current proposal is a single code for every 40-50 properties - with 6 characters - how will that help us find places in non urban Ireland where 40% of our population lives - more than anywhere else in Europe. And to make this work a lookup database has to be used meaning that all roads in the country have to be named , all properties numbered - thereby changing the addresses of 40% of the population and rezoning properties into clusters - resulting in properties in one townland being clustered with properties in another.

    How come no-one is interested in these implications - just the superficial - "how many characters will it have" - seems to me that even Fianna Fail are going along with this proposal without even understanding that there will be countless delays due to litigation as 40% of the population has their address changed and property revalued as they get re-zoned into a new cluster of houses.

    Forget about number of characters - start thinking what it does and how it does it instead!!! (eg how many properties have the same code under the Canadian system and did every road already have a name and every property a number? Also unforfunate that there is a postcode commencing with "KOK" - as for the US 5 character system - you cannot find a propery with this so there is an optional 4 more characters.
    - its good to understand before you compare!!!)


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    #33
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    garydubh wrote: »
    Current proposal is a single code for every 40-50 properties - with 6 characters - how will that help us find places in non urban Ireland where 40% of our population lives

    How will it deal with new buildings (or groups therof) without endless (and messy) code changes ?
    garydubh wrote: »
    there will be countless delays due to litigation as 40% of the population has their address changed and property revalued as they get re-zoned into a new cluster of houses.
    How many instances of litigation have there been over telephone area code changes ?


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    #34
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    How will it deal with new buildings (or groups therof) without endless (and messy) code changes ?

    Exactly - it will have to be constantly changed and updated - so as time goes on a property's code will change - causing even more upset!
    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    How many instances of litigation have there been over telephone area code changes ?
    Tlephone numbers are not an issue as they are not not part of a property address - think Dublin 6W - mentioned already - there was huge public outcry which lead to the 6W compromise !


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    #35
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I hope it's future proofed for the "pending reintegration of the National Territory" or the SF boys will be most upset! :D


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    #36
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    garydubh wrote: »
    how many properties have the same code under the Canadian system and did every road already have a name and every property a number?
    What I can say is you can drive into very remote parts of southern Ontario and see every house has a street number with a little sign on the road entrance - I've seen 5 digit "street" numbers e.g. "17111 Rural Road #2, Blahville, Ontario." But some places like First Nations Reservations don't have them in Northern Ontario.

    Having gotten interested in this I checked out the Wiki article on Post codes in Canada and found this cautionary tale:
    when the automated sorting system was initially conceived, the Canadian Union of Postal Workers and other relevant unions objected to it, mainly because the wages of those who ran the new automated machines were much lower than those who had hand-sorted mail. The unions ended up staging job action and public information campaigns, with the message that they did not want people and business to use postal codes on their mail. 20 March 1974 was declared "boycott the postal code day" and the union promised that letters without postal codes would be given preferential service. Eventually the unions started being compensated once the automated system was put into use


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    #37
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    garydubh wrote: »
    Tlephone numbers are not an issue as they are not not part of a property address

    In larger cities the first two or three digits of a telephone number indicate the area.
    garydubh wrote: »
    think Dublin 6W - mentioned already - there was huge public outcry which lead to the 6W compromise !
    Why are gobdaws like this indulged ?

    Actually I lived in 6W for a spell onetime. The confusion beteen 6 and 6W caused all sorts of problems with mail etc. The habit of people on the same street giving different area names in their address (Rathmines, Harolds Cross, Teranure, Kimmage) depending on what they wanted to prove made it worse :rolleyes: Even worse were places like Blackrock etc not wanting postal area codes at all


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    #38
    basabe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭basabe


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    In larger cities the first two or three digits of a telephone number indicate the area.

    But does not have the impact of codes to be used as part of a property address.

    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Why are gobdaws like this indulged ?

    Actually I lived in 6W for a spell onetime. The confusion beteen 6 and 6W caused all sorts of problems with mail etc. The habit of people on the same street giving different area names in their address (Rathmines, Harolds Cross, Teranure, Kimmage) depending on what they wanted to prove made it worse :rolleyes: Even worse were places like Blackrock etc not wanting postal area codes at all

    Can you imagine what it is going to be like when a code must be introduced for every 50 properties in the whole country?


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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    How many people know their Geodirectory code ?
    Well, I just used the search facility and pinpointed my house - no address found! I also tried several other houses in the neighbourhood same result!

    I even tried a local landmark hotel. wtf is the system broken or am I doing something wrong :confused:


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    #40
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    basabe wrote: »
    Can you imagine what it is going to be like when a code must be introduced for every 50 properties in the whole country?

    What about the residents of Dublin 4 who all have equal address status now - will it not be the case that under the current Government Proposal, those who get "D04 001" will definitely live in a more prestigious part than those in "D04 999" - the alarming part it might seem!!!! There will definitely be some serious petitions for boundaries to be redrawn!!!


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    #41
    goudystout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭goudystout


    garydubh wrote: »
    What about the residents of Dublin 4 who all have equal address status now - will it not be the case that under the current Government Proposal, those who get "D04 001" will definitely live in a more prestigious part than those in "D04 999" - the alarming part it might seem!!!! There will definitely be some serious petitions for boundaries to be redrawn!!!

    Will there then be a "D04 001W" or even a "D04 999.5" ? ;) - guess there will be some petitioners acommodated to keep things moving forward.


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    garydubh wrote: »
    What about the residents of Dublin 4 who all have equal address status now - will it not be the case that under the current Government Proposal, those who get "D04 001" will definitely live in a more prestigious part than those in "D04 999" - the alarming part it might seem!!!! There will definitely be some serious petitions for boundaries to be redrawn!!!

    The best way to stop such shenanigans would be to use numbers by street type codes that have a sequence that is easy for An Post (and other services) to locate but your average snob would be unable to relate to!


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    #43
    redalicat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭redalicat


    dowlingm wrote: »
    US manages with 5 numeric.

    Actually, it's 9. The first 5 are mandatory, and they add the +4 in processing.
    From Wiki: "A ZIP + 4 code uses the basic five-digit code plus four additional digits to identify a geographic segment within the five-digit delivery area, such as a city block, a group of apartments, an individual high-volume receiver of mail or any other unit that could use an extra identifier to aid in efficient mail sorting and delivery. Initial attempts to promote universal use of the new format met with public resistance, and today the plus-four code is not required. In general, mail is read by a multiline optical character reader (MLOCR) that almost instantly determines the correct ZIP + 4 code from the address and—along with the even more specific delivery point—sprays a Postnet barcode on the face of the mailpiece that corresponds to 11 digits."

    When I lived in the States, I found that when I wrote the +4 on the ZIP (postal) code, it did tend to get there faster by at least a day.


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    #44
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Canada makes do with 6 letters/nos. for a massive land mass. US manages with 5 numeric.

    Ireland, which you could drop into Northern Ontario and forget where you put it, needs 6 - linked to the GAA jersey. It's that kind of madness that got us Dublin 6 "West"
    Rubbish. Canada's system is 6 alphanumeric chars - giving a theoretical total of 2.1 billion codes.
    The USA's can only distinguish down to the building when the 4-digit extension is added (called the ZIP + 4 Code) - giving a 9-digit numeric code - which is a billion codes.
    Ireland's will vary but most codes look like they'll be a character followed by 5 numbers - giving only 2.6 million possiblities.
    So, Canada's system is 800 times higher res than ours, and the USA's is 400 times higher.
    So I would hardly call ours overspecced.

    As for jokers who write makey-up things like "Mooncoin via Waterford" as their address, they could - and should - have the envelope returned to them with "Address unknown" written on it. They'll soon learn.

    And finally, as for public outcries over things like Dublin 6W - we shouldn't have given in to jokers more worried about keeping up with the Murphys and should have kept the integrity of the system intact. The great thing about the postcodes is that they'll establish a fixed set of rules for generating numbers for new areas - so "6W" nonsense won't be possible. Websites and printed-out forms will force 6 characters exactly to be entered and there'll be no messing about.


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    #45
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    MINISTER FOR Communications Eamon Ryan has rejected Fine Gael claims that a proposed new postal code system will “merely slightly improve what is in place at present”.

    Fine Gael communications spokesman Simon Coveney claimed during Dáil questions yesterday that the new postal system would cost €15 million to implement and “the system the Minister proposes to introduce will not bring the person with a letter or service directly to a person’s door or address without having local knowledge of the area”.

    The Cork South Central TD said Mr Ryan had previously stated the postal system would only pinpoint areas on the basis of a code down to the nearest 20 or 50 properties.

    “If such a system were introduced to rural Ireland with the ability to narrow down to between 20 and 50 properties, such a service would be no better than that which currently exists with the use of local districts or townlands.”

    Mr Ryan said however: “The case is not as set out by Deputy Coveney”.

    He told the House he would “within a week” start a “competitive process which should deliver quickly in terms of the exact system we introduce”.

    The Minister stressed: “I am not rejecting any accurate system. It will be up to the competitive tendering process to decide on which system.”

    Mr Ryan added: “Post codes are right for this country and, as well as providing an effective postal code system, they should have capability to provide location code facilities for a range of applications that will develop as the smart economy evolves.”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0127/1224263210470.html


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    #46
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    MODERN technology such as internet mapping, Google maps and iPhones should be part and parcel of the proposed postcode system, an Oireachtas Committee believes.

    Ireland is the only country in the EU that does not have postcodes, but if it is done correctly our system could be streets ahead of any other, Deputy Liz McManus, the report’s author, said.

    The committee has recommended "a unique identifier system" for individual properties incorporating technologies such as internet mapping and iPhones.

    The roll-out of the new system can only happen if certain obstacles are overcome, the committee’s report warned yesterday.

    The report, published yesterday following submissions from various groups to the joint committee, stressed that the changing economic circumstances in Ireland meant the postcodes project needed to offer measurable benefits and be delivered at a reasonable cost.

    Among the recommendations, the report states that the system of postcodes must be made appropriate to meet the current and future needs of the smart economy, and that a roadmap of implementation should be published by September 2010 and a facility for consultation provided to take into account concerns as they arise.

    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hi-tech-postcode-system-considered-116078.html#ixzz0jtA622f7

    Sounds promising.


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    #47
    redalicat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭redalicat


    From the Indo: Postcode rollout delayed again after technical glitch


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    #48
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,533 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    redalicat wrote: »
    From the Indo: Postcode rollout delayed again after technical glitch

    Do anyone know what the "serious technical error" was ???


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    #49
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    redalicat wrote: »
    From the Indo: Postcode rollout delayed again after technical glitch

    Roll up Roll up, see the amazing fantastic E-Voting machines the sequel, coming soon to a postcode near you.


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    #50
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Can I take a guess at they realised very late on that there wasn't enough code-space for the entire country? Like, when they ran out with some counties left...


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    #51
    dbyrne
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭dbyrne


    take one of the roads off TempleVille road, templeogue in dublin. The road has been name L8412 by the council recently. if the councils all over ireland are doing this would it not be easy to make up the address, 25 L8412, where the house number is 25 and the street code is L8412. to me that makes sense.


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    #52
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    dbyrne wrote: »
    take one of the roads off TempleVille road, templeogue in dublin. The road has been name L8412 by the council recently. if the councils all over ireland are doing this would it not be easy to make up the address, 25 L8412, where the house number is 25 and the street code is L8412. to me that makes sense.

    If they want to introduce the postal code system then why not just extend the British system over the Irish map and keep us in Sync with both the UK standard and more importantly the Northern Irish system. Joined up thinking like this is what we need not wasting millions developing something that has been tried and tested in the UK for decades and works well.


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    #53
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Stinicker wrote: »
    If they want to introduce the postal code system then why not just extend the British system over the Irish map and keep us in Sync with both the UK standard and more importantly the Northern Irish system. Joined up thinking like this is what we need not wasting millions developing something that has been tried and tested in the UK for decades and works well.

    There's limited space within the UK postcode system to do this without causing clashes, D- is left empty for Dublin but otherwise it'd be a case of nicking random letter combos


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    #54
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,559 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hi-tech-postcode-system-considered-116078.html#ixzz0jtA622f7

    Sounds promising.

    Hard to see how them using random meaningless buzzwords like 'internet mapping and iphones' is promising.
    The committee has recommended "a unique identifier system" for individual properties incorporating technologies such as internet mapping and iPhones.

    wtf do they think that means? lets incorporate those new phone yolks into the maps, and put the internet in there too. deadly.


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    #55
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sounds like journo gibberish to me.


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    #56
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Stinicker wrote: »
    If they want to introduce the postal code system then why not just extend the British system over the Irish map and keep us in Sync with both the UK standard and more importantly the Northern Irish system. Joined up thinking like this is what we need not wasting millions developing something that has been tried and tested in the UK for decades and works well.
    I think the NI postcodes are a simplified form of the GB system, which they "get away with" because NI is relatively small. To incorporate the RoI into the UK system (and I don't really see a massive advantage to extending an old fashioned system when modern GPS technologies should be able to provide a far more useful way of doing it) would probably require a re-postcoding of NI and that would not be popular there (remember the uproar across the UK when telephone numbers changed and companies had to have stationery and signage amended at great expense?


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    #57
    redalicat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭redalicat


    dbyrne wrote: »
    take one of the roads off TempleVille road, templeogue in dublin. The road has been name L8412 by the council recently. if the councils all over ireland are doing this would it not be easy to make up the address, 25 L8412, where the house number is 25 and the street code is L8412. to me that makes sense.

    Yes, if you have a house number. I'm out in the country in a house with no name, no number, but other houses in close proximity that are the same colour. Makes getting deliveries quite difficult.


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    #58
    ForiegnNational
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭ForiegnNational


    I live up what can only be described as a Borreen, off a lane, off an 'L' road, with no house number, therefore using a system such as 25 L12356 will simply not work in the countryside!

    You need a system that converts back to a Lat/Long location, that way they can easily be loaded into your SatNav system (there are many systems that convert lat/long to a POI). I know that when people currently use their SatNav's to find us, they end up 40+km away at yet another place in West Cork with the same townland name.

    I even wrote the www.epostcode.ie site as a demonstration, because I was so, ****, ahem, annoyed at the governments inability to do something as simple as a post code system themselves.

    There are other good postcode sites, such as http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/, why is it taking the government so long to do something that private individuals such as myself can do in two evenings?


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    #59
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    ForiegnNational wrote: »
    There are other good postcode sites, such as http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/, why is it taking the government so long to do something that private individuals such as myself can do in two evenings?
    I know you have your little system to plug here, but please try to understand that others may not love it as much as you do.

    This is why we're having a tender - the minister takes everyone's (not just your) design "asks" into consideration, then gets a company to come up with the solution.


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    #60
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    redalicat wrote: »
    Yes, if you have a house number. I'm out in the country in a house with no name, no number, but other houses in close proximity that are the same colour. Makes getting deliveries quite difficult.

    Why don't you name your house and put up a sign? Or paint your house...


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    #61
    redalicat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭redalicat


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Why don't you name your house and put up a sign? Or paint your house...

    Because I'm the tenant, not the owner. ;) Were it mine, I'd change the colour, put up a sign AND name the place. But not for the price the landlord wants to sell it at. He seems to think we're still at the height of the boom.


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