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Can we have peaceful, national protests yet?

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    #122
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #123
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,706 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    renegademaster wrote: »
    fine gael and labour will go the way of the greens in next general elections and i do realise what that prediction means but as i've been saying for long enough now, the problem with worldwide politics it's not who's in power, it's what the people allow politicians get up to and not be held accountable for.


    I will give you a 1000/1 that won't happen. Hell I will bet my morgage

    And as mentioned way of the greens mean no TD's


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    #124
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    i'm predicting that if gthe people sit on their ar$es for 2 years it seems like there's a great chance that fine gael and labour continue to make sucha mess of things that they may well go the way fo the greens,

    we elected them to replace fianna fail and gave them a clear mandate yet as soon as fg/lab got in they just continued the corruption, give them 2 more years and nobody will vote for them, much like the greens imho!!


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    #125
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    renegademaster wrote: »
    i'm predicting that if gthe people sit on their ar$es for 2 years it seems like there's a great chance that fine gael and labour continue to make sucha mess of things that they may well go the way fo the greens,

    we elected them to replace fianna fail and gave them a clear mandate yet as soon as fg/lab got in they just continued the corruption, give them 2 more years and nobody will vote for them, much like the greens imho!!

    This won't happen unless we can get a new party up and running between now and then. None of the current establishment has any interest whatsoever in accountability, so there are pretty much no alternatives... yet.


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    #126
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #127
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    as i said before, the problem is not who's in government, it's what the irish people let those in power get away with. the establishment will never have any interest in accountability until the people have an interest in accountability, if 150,000 marched for 2 hours 2 saturdays in a row it would be amazing the amount of TDs whod' show up to work the following mon with this idea they had themselves over the weekend that it's time for real change. and, if that real change didn't come or all we got was empty soundbytes and spin well then we'd need to step up the pressure so they know we're serious. until any of this happens we will have more of what we've got up to now
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    don't underestimate the chances of them fcuking it all right up, sure cowen and fianna fail thought they'd get to the next elections not a bother but with a lot of help from themselves and massive amounts of public pressure they were out on their a$$es!!


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    #128
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    Agreed, the best summing up I have seen of the likely course of the next election.

    Some nasty ads and remarks about letting FF ruin it all again will be part of the campaign too.

    "It's the economy, stupid", will be the mantra.

    There will be a reduced majority and the key question will be who will be the leader of the opposition?


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    #129
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Or, once a minister is appointed, it becomes a national issue. So if we have some mechanism for the public to call for a minister's head, it should be a national mechanism, not a constituency one.
    I know they have recall mechanisms elsewhere but I honestly do not see how this could work here (at least as our system is presently constituted)

    If it were the case that a government making good decisions entirely coincided with one making popular ones then all would be well. But it is not. IMO, the power of recall that the people currently have with periodic general elections is already so potent as to steer any government unduly away from the pragmatic and towards the popular.

    We are already weighing down our children and grandchildren with our debt, so you really see any prospect of a reversal of this if we in effect require our governments to be perpetually popular? And this is what a recall mechanism would amount to.

    And in any case, your arguments for reform are premised on the notion that the general public have some sort of abhorrence of low standards in public office.

    Even a cursory examination of our history will show that this is simply not true. It is little more than a parlour game we like to play where we profess to be outraged at whatever shenanigans our politicians got up to last. But when it comes to meaningful elections (i.e. general elections) , we never, ever punish them.


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    #130
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    renegademaster wrote: »
    as i said before, the problem is not who's in government, it's what the irish people let those in power get away with. the establishment will never have any interest in accountability until the people have an interest in accountability, if 150,000 marched for 2 hours 2 saturdays in a row it would be amazing the amount of TDs whod' show up to work the following mon with this idea they had themselves over the weekend that it's time for real change. and, if that real change didn't come or all we got was empty soundbytes and spin well then we'd need to step up the pressure so they know we're serious. until any of this happens we will have more of what we've got up to now

    There are many decent politicians and officials who do a good job, else we wouldn't function as a country

    We are also one of the least corrupt countries in the world

    Yes, some are too lazy to protest, likewise some (actually I'd say many) just lazily tar all politicians with the same overly-cynical brush regardless of who's in power

    Blaming the establishment is a national past-time that we cannot do without


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    #131
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    We are already weighing down our children and grandchildren with our debt, so you really see any prospect of a reversal of this if we in effect require our governments to be perpetually popular? And this is what a recall mechanism would amount to.

    Even a cursory examination of our history will show that this is simply not true. It is little more than a parlour game we like to play where we profess to be outraged at whatever shenanigans our politicians got up to last. But when it comes to meaningful elections (i.e. general elections) , we never, ever punish them.

    you are dead right but never underestimate the people, we might have only got it together once in the last few years but when we did 150,000 forced fianna fail to call elections and many more of us sent them packing, if we had only kept up the momentum we might have avoided the illegal bonds being lumped on our childrens children which is what many of us were screaming at people online and on the streets at the time and most were telling the few protestors that they were off their fcuking heads for protesting, look at where the lack of protesting has gotten us


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    #132
    KwackerJack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭KwackerJack


    The title should be 'Can we have Protests yet?'


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    #133
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think that people are realistic in their views. Judging by the small turnouts at previous protests, that were mainly hyjacked by fanatics, people do realise that we are slowly but surely getting back on track. The current Government sometimes make a hames of things and come accross as arrogant dictators, but they really are doing the best they can. I would like to see how the opposition would have done in the same timeframe. I would like to see FG and Labour returned to continue the job.


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    #134
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think that people are realistic in their views. Judging by the small turnouts at previous protests, that were mainly hyjacked by fanatics, people do realise that we are slowly but surely getting back on track. The current Government sometimes make a hames of things and come accross as arrogant dictators, but they really are doing the best they can. I would like to see how the opposition would have done in the same timeframe. I would like to see FG and Labour returned to continue the job.

    protests that were hijacked were due to a lack of interest fromt he normal joe soaps that could have numbered the nutters easily if even a few hundred normal had showed up


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    #135
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    renegademaster wrote: »
    protests that were hijacked were due to a lack of interest fromt he normal joe soaps that could have numbered the nutters easily if even a few hundred normal had showed up

    My point is that the "normal joe soaps" believe that the current Government are doing things right. It may not be pleasant, but what or how else could things be done? They may have gone about things a bit differently, or with a bit more finesse, but the country is heading the right way and I would hate to hand it over to anyone that would derail it again.


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    #136
    Highflyer13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Highflyer13


    The current government are doing an excellent job given the mess they took over. I am generally happy with them however I would like to see them firmly tackle quangos, charities and the general entitlement culture that exists. Less words and more action. I would be willing to protest against this just to push the government into taking action on these issues.


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    #137
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    My point is that the "normal joe soaps" believe that the current Government are doing things right. It may not be pleasant, but what or how else could things be done?

    Again, this isn't about the economy, it's about our culture of impunity and ongoing, constant scandals.
    I'm finding it difficult to understand some posters' inability to see that the economy isn't the only factor in a nation's well being. Some of us just want to see honest people in charge and dishonest people being force out.


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    #138
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about the economy, it's about our culture of impunity and ongoing, constant scandals.
    I'm finding it difficult to understand some posters' inability to see that the economy isn't the only factor in a nation's well being. Some of us just want to see honest people in charge and dishonest people being force out.
    I couldn't care less if the most dishonest people in the country were running the show as long as my quality of life was improving. Most people wouldn't.


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    #139
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about the economy, it's about our culture of impunity and ongoing, constant scandals.
    I'm finding it difficult to understand some posters' inability to see that the economy isn't the only factor in a nation's well being. Some of us just want to see honest people in charge and dishonest people being force out.

    When your house is on fire you don't care about the ethics of the firemen. That is for a later day.


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    #140
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about the economy, it's about our culture of impunity and ongoing, constant scandals.
    I'm finding it difficult to understand some posters' inability to see that the economy isn't the only factor in a nation's well being. Some of us just want to see honest people in charge and dishonest people being force out.

    And for all your & Renegademaster's anger neither have offered us an alternative?

    Will you not accept that many are OK with things, whether you like it or not.


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    #141
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    comongethappy wrote: »
    And for all your & Renegademaster's anger neither have offered us an alternative?

    Will you not accept that many are OK with things, whether you like it or not.

    That is not what the polls are saying

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/support-for-government-parties-drop-in-new-poll-1.1743471

    Just a reminder, FF suffered a catastrophic collapse at the last GE, Labour are facing the same obliteration...so it would seem that no, many are not ok with our government.

    In a democracy, the people only have two weapons, protest or the ballot box. When you consider that support for the 3 main parties is literally tumbling it is perplexing how this is not manifesting itself on the streets. Personally, I believe that there are only a few organisations with the infrastructure needed to actually pull off a successful protest, I have witnessed two mass protests in Limerick since the crash, Farmers and School teachers.


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    #142
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I couldn't care less if the most dishonest people in the country were running the show as long as my quality of life was improving. Most people wouldn't.

    You must have loved Bertie Ahern.

    I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, but that attitude is what ultimately damages democracy.

    The citizens of any Republic have a civic duty to elect honest public officials, full stop, failure in that duty has catastrophic consequences. We know that future citizens (as in citizens who are not even born yet) of this republic will literally have to pay for the mistakes we have made...that is what happens when a critical mass of citizens place the individual need over the greater national need.


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    #143
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    You must have loved Bertie Ahern.

    I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, but that attitude is what ultimately damages democracy.

    The citizens of any Republic have a civic duty to elect honest public officials, full stop, failure in that duty has catastrophic consequences. We know that future citizens (as in citizens who are not even born yet) of this republic will literally have to pay for the mistakes we have made...that is what happens when a critical mass of citizens place the individual need over the greater national need.

    How do we do this? How do you ENSURE that the politicians you vote in tomorrow will be honest next year?


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    #144
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    You must have loved Bertie Ahern.

    I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, but that attitude is what ultimately damages democracy.

    The citizens of any Republic have a civic duty to elect honest public officials, full stop, failure in that duty has catastrophic consequences. We know that future citizens (as in citizens who are not even born yet) of this republic will literally have to pay for the mistakes we have made...that is what happens when a critical mass of citizens place the individual need over the greater national need.
    Not really, I was too young to really take interest in politics when he left.

    Why do you capitalise republic? It's not a proper noun.

    Your assumption is that electing dishonest leaders will necessarily lead to economic collapse this isn't true, a government is only made up of ordinary people and these people could be honest but incompetent.

    Leaving aside that point your second assumption is that a totally honest government can be elected. Historically this has never been the case and if you accept a government is mearly a selection of individuals and you accept the widely accepted fact that no person is totally honest or incorruptible then the only conclusion one can draw is that no government can ever be totally honest or incorruptible.


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    #145
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    bumper234 wrote: »
    How do we do this? How do you ENSURE that the politicians you vote in tomorrow will be honest next year?

    Well you do not vote for them or their party at the next election, or protest, one or the other.


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    #146
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Well you do not vote for them or their party at the next election, or protest, one or the other.

    Soooooooooo pretty much the way things are right now then?


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    #147
    Knob Longman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 326 ✭✭Knob Longman


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Soooooooooo pretty much the way things are right now then?

    Thee peasants won't be revolting anytime soon, M'lord..


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    #148
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Not really, I was too young to really take interest in politics when he left.

    Why do you capitalise republic? It's not a proper noun.

    Your assumption is that electing dishonest leaders will necessarily lead to economic collapse this isn't true, a government is only made up of ordinary people and these people could be honest but incompetent.

    Leaving aside that point your second assumption is that a totally honest government can be elected. Historically this has never been the case and if you accept a government is mearly a selection of individuals and you accept the widely accepted fact that no person is totally honest or incorruptible then the only conclusion one can draw is that no government can ever be totally honest or incorruptible.

    I do not know what your point is here, I don't.

    Voting for a politician who is known (or whose party is known) for incompetence or dishonesty is the same thing, it has the same consequences.

    If history has taught us anything it is that power corrupts, it is human nature, therefore you legislate accordingly to protect the integrity of the state, if you continue to vote for a politician(or a political party) who consistently fails to do so, you are increasing the likelihood of living in a failed state.

    As for my error of capitalising republic, my sincerest apologies for any confusion caused.


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    #149
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Soooooooooo pretty much the way things are right now then?

    Correct.

    I'm not sure you get my point, the ballot box is the most devastating weapon the electorate has, it already has obliterated FF, the polls are telling us that the current government parties are headed for the same treatment, and there has been no transfer of those voters back to FF, which indicates that the electorate is not one bit happy with how our state is being governed.

    Ordinarily you would expect to see more tangible evidence of such, we are not, hence the point of the whole thread.


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    #150
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Knob Longman wrote: »
    Thee peasants won't be revolting anytime soon, M'lord..

    Let them eat cake!


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    #151
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    I do not know what your point is here, I don't.

    Voting for a politician who is known (or whose party is known) for incompetence or dishonesty is the same thing, it has the same consequences.

    If history has taught us anything it is that power corrupts, it is human nature, therefore you legislate accordingly to protect the integrity of the state, if you continue to vote for a politician(or a political party) who consistently fails to do so, you are increasing the likelihood of living in a failed state.

    As for my error of capitalising republic, my sincerest apologies for any confusion caused.

    You probably don't know what I mean because you isolated a paragraph that shouldn't be considered in isolation.

    As for voting for a politician who is known for corruption then sure if you do that you deserve what you get but my point is that since a government is only a collection of individuals and every individual is corruptible then it's impossible to have an incorruptible government.


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