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Why does ireland have one of the highest suicide rates?

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    #32
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    Eramen wrote: »
    No doubt the usual suspects will blame the RCC/DeValera/other conspiracy theory but the reality is more complex.

    We have a rabid aversion to frankness and sincerity as a people. Any expression of core our feelings; of grievances, hopes, dreams, regrets, insights, is usually met with a wall of apprehension or insensitivity from others. In the main these feelings are not something that is talked about openly. This also extends to discussion of any serious topics which are central and important to our own life - they are simply met with blank stares, or worse ends up in slagging in order to stifle one's genuine concerns. All this can be attributed to how people are raised.

    "Men - men are weak" - Lord Elrond of Rivendel.

    This statement is truer than we may first think. Irish fathers/men have failed. Certainly not all of them, but a significant proportion. The lack of maturity and the gross insecurity that manifests when matters of heartfelt or serious discussion arise is due to a failure in the masculine principle in society.

    Forthrightness, integrity, positive willpower, strength in the face of adversary, right action - are all learned in the main from the father who emanates such values. Too many Irish men are more interested in drinking, sport, the pub and general vice than in raising their children. The father has knowledge of the world - yet selfishly refuses to pass on his experiences and learning to his children. This leads to an inversion of values, people then operate in reverse and get caught up in unproductive mental cycles.

    This is why people can't talk or open up, without drink, that is. Drink has thus become a therapeutic, and the drinking problem stems partly, though not wholly from this. Individuals have simply are too insecure, microcosmic examples of what has gone wrong in the national family situation. And I'd like to point out that this has nothing to do with 'traditionalism' or the like, traditional societies tend to be socially harmonious. One can equally blame the sub-cultural (one's adopted family) scene of the modern world for many of the associated ills above.

    But again, we dont have a high rate of Suicide. At least not comparatively.


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    #33
    nadey
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭nadey


    Eramen wrote: »
    No doubt the usual suspects will blame the RCC/DeValera/other conspiracy theory but the reality is more complex.

    We have a rabid aversion to frankness and sincerity as a people. Any expression of core our feelings; of grievances, hopes, dreams, regrets, insights, is usually met with a wall of apprehension or insensitivity from others. In the main these feelings are not something that is talked about openly. This also extends to discussion of any serious topics which are central and important to our own life - they are simply met with blank stares, or worse ends up in slagging in order to stifle one's genuine concerns. All this can be attributed to how people are raised.

    "Men - men are weak" - Lord Elrond of Rivendel.

    This statement is truer than we may first think. Irish fathers/men have failed. Certainly not all of them, but a significant proportion. The lack of maturity and the gross insecurity that manifests when matters of heartfelt or serious discussion arise is due to a failure in the masculine principle in society.

    Forthrightness, integrity, positive willpower, strength in the face of adversary, right action - are all learned in the main from the father who emanates such values. Too many Irish men are more interested in drinking, sport, the pub and general vice than in raising their children. The father has knowledge of the world - yet selfishly refuses to pass on his experiences and learning to his children. This leads to an inversion of values, people then operate in reverse and get caught up in unproductive mental cycles.

    This is why people can't talk or open up, without drink, that is. They simply are too insecure, a microcosmic example of what has gone wrong in the national family situation. And I'd like to point out that this has nothing to do with 'traditionalism' or the like, traditional societies tend to be socially harmonious. One can equally blame the sub-cultural (one's adopted family) scene of the modern world for many of the associated ills above.

    I definitely relate to the bit about irish fatheres. Mine and alot of my friends fathers were cold and distant. I think that lack of a father figure screwed a lot of us irish up


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Recording of suicides understates our rate, how much that applies to other countries is something I don't know.
    We're probably around average for developed nations.


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    #35
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    I expect ignorance from TD's. I would expect a GP to know better

    Would you go to your GP to discuss issues if you think they are like Dr Jim McDaid from Donegal who'll consider you or someone you know a "selfish bastard" ?linky

    Drunk driving down the wrong side of a dual carriageway however :rolleyes:


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    #36
    Eramen
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Eramen


    nadey wrote: »
    I definitely relate to the bit about irish fatheres. Mine and alot of my friends fathers were cold and distant. I think that lack of a father figure screwed a lot of us irish up


    Irish men and teenagers have some of highest suicide rates in Europe. Two people kill themselves everyday. That's too many for such a small nation.

    Also see syco's post above.


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    #37
    con___manx1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭con___manx1


    A guy in my town killed himself recently.he bought his coffin and paid for the bar after his funeral


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    #38
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Well we don't have one of the highest suicide rates, not by quite a way, as people have pointed out. But we should ideally of course be aiming for the lowest rate.

    I'm sure there's a lot of factors involved in suicide, as people have mentioned, but one not mentioned that I certainly don't think helps matters is the rapid (mis)diagnoses of depression and (over)prescription of anti-depressants tbh. I'm not some anti-medication nut or something, far from it, I believe anti-depressants save lives in many instances. But surely to Christ there has to be something wrong with General Practitioners diagnosing people with depression after a one off 15-30 minute chat and then prescribing up to six months of medication at a time, many of which can have side effects that are very detrimental to over-all quality of life (sexual dysfunction, sleep issues, suicidal ideation, etc) and can be very difficult to cease the use of?

    I also don't think the insistence of some of those with depression to others that depression "is something that can never be beaten and will be with you all your life" is very helpful at all and physically wince when I see it trotted out on here and else where. A load of bollox if ever I heard it and a very dangerous thing to be saying to people that may be struggling to hang in there.


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    #39
    AboutaWeekAgo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭AboutaWeekAgo


    Just this year I could name 7 or 8 people in my town who have committed sucide all under the age of 30. If I was to count back from when I started secondary school years ago the number would be well in the double digits. Seems weird that so many would happen in the same town :(

    I'd put a lot of it down to drink and the fact there are little to no jobs here anymore. It's a case of leave or stay and end up drinking your days away, which I bet is the case for a lot of small/medium size towns around the country.


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    #40
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    the_syco wrote: »
    Reasons;

    Not too long ago (and still by some people) depression is viewed as being sad. Think happy thoughts, and you'll be cured. Unfortunately, this doesn't work, and most people who cannot get help don't want to burden anyone, thus commit suicide.

    Blame the catholic church, if you wish.

    Oh, and the "big boys don't cry" crap, where men that cry are seen as weak, any emotion, and you are weak, means that when something hits the fan, some people can't cope, and play chicken with trains, tall mountains, or bear traps. It's not so bad now, but 20 odd years ago, you had to be hard as nails, or be seen as a wimp.

    But we had a far far lower suicide rate when all the things that you consider the cause were far more prevalent :confused:


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    #41
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Crocodile Dundee

    Sue Charlton: I suppose you don't have any shrinks at Walkabout Creek.

    Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: No back there if you got a problem you tell Wally. And he tells everyone in town, brings it out in the open, no more problem.


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    #42
    nadey
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭nadey


    strobe wrote: »
    Well we don't have one of the highest suicide rates, not by quite a way, as people have pointed out. But we should ideally of course be aiming for the lowest rate.

    I'm sure there's a lot of factors involved in suicide, as people have mentioned, but one not mentioned that I certainly don't think helps matters is the rapid (mis)diagnoses of depression and (over)prescription of anti-depressants tbh. I'm not some anti-medication nut or something, far from it, I believe anti-depressants save lives in many instances. But surely to Christ there has to be something wrong with General Practitioners diagnosing people with depression after a one off 15-30 minute chat and then prescribing up to six months of medication at a time, many of which can have side effects that are very detrimental to over-all quality of life (sexual dysfunction, sleep issues, suicidal ideation, etc) and can be very difficult to cease the use of?

    I also don't think the insistence of some of those with depression to others that depression "is something that can never be beaten and will be with you all your life" is very helpful at all and physically wince when I see it trotted out on here and else where. A load of bollox if ever I heard it and a very dangerous thing to be saying to people that may be struggling to hang in there.

    I agree with everything you said apart from the last paragraph, unless you have clinical depression you cant really comment. Ive had it 25 years with no real re.lief, I just had to learn to deal with it. Its tough but it can be done


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    #43
    In Lonesome Dove
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 479 ✭✭In Lonesome Dove


    Recession has brought many problems and challenges to the doorstep of many people. Maybe for some people suicide is a way out of problems - work problems, money problems, family problems. I wouldn't go about blaming depression for all suicides.


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    #44
    nadey
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭nadey


    AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »
    Just this year I could name 7 or 8 people in my town who have committed sucide all under the age of 30. If I was to count back from when I started secondary school years ago the number would be well in the double digits. Seems weird that so many would happen in the same town :(

    I'd put a lot of it down to drink and the fact there are little to no jobs here anymore. It's a case of leave or stay and end up drinking your days away, which I bet is the case for a lot of small/medium size towns around the country.

    From your post I assume your from a small town and thats a hell of a lot of young fellas to commit suicide

    And some posters say its not a problem, get real guys.


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    #45
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    nadey wrote: »
    I agree with everything you said apart from the last paragraph, unless you have clinical depression you cant really comment. Ive had it 25 years with no real re.lief, I just had to learn to deal with it. Its tough but it can be done

    Who says I haven't had? But that's beside the point anyway. Being clinically depressed makes someone an expert on nothing but their own personal experience (if even that).


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    #46
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Our culture of alcohol consumption


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    #47
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Agree with many of the points raised - and to add a couple of unmentioned ones:
    Poor prospects for many people (high unemployment, that will probably last decades), bad work/life balance for many in work (again partly due to the countries economic situation).

    There's a lot, triggered by the economic crisis, that adds to this problem (also plays a big part, in preventing funding for proper mental health services).


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    #48
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    nadey wrote: »
    I agree with everything you said apart from the last paragraph, unless you have clinical depression you cant really comment.

    Actually anybody can comment about it, it's an open forum on the most popular section of one of the most visited websites in Ireland.

    Not sure why you are getting defensive...


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    #49
    nadey
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭nadey


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Actually anybody can comment about it, it's an open forum on the most popular section of one of the most visited websites in Ireland.

    Not sure why you are getting defensive...

    Because you obviously dont have a clue what clinical depression and GAD is like to cope with every single day

    Dont be so dense


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    #50
    Laura Palmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Laura Palmer


    Thought catholic guilt led to sexual hang-ups - now people saying it leads to suicide. Which is it?!
    The stuff about Ireland being backward as a country - as well as being untrue, is unhelpful. Like that's going to provide hope to people who are suicidal.
    nadey wrote: »
    And some posters say its not a problem
    Nobody said it's not a problem.
    deadybai wrote: »
    Depression is still frowned upon in Ireland. Especially in rural villages and towns. 3 young men that I went to school with (all from the same area) committed suicide since we left school 3 years ago. There was also a few when I was in school. Its appauling that only in the last year or so that we are waking up to this.
    The last year or so? :confused:
    I was diagnosed in 1996. Got fantastic help...


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    #51
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    cat_dog wrote: »
    Lack of sunshine

    I don't think we can blame it on that, nor can we blame it on lunar cycles (giving us the politically incorrect "lunatic"), or even the affluenza created by the Celtic Tiger.

    However, the closure of rural pubs, especially the dance nights, might have some part to play in all of this.


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    #52
    Maybe_Memories
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭Maybe_Memories


    nadey wrote: »
    True, depression and anxiety is as much an illness as cancer.
    Fuhrer wrote: »
    Its not.

    Care to elaborate on that?


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    #53
    nadey
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭nadey


    Maybe_Memories wrote: »
    Care to elaborate on that?

    Fuhrers gone awol cos he knows he was talking crap


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    #54
    Theflyingegg
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭Theflyingegg


    I was suicidal in my teen years had no friends, lonely, felt unless, etc but somewhere along the line my whole mentality shifted for the better and now I think nothing but positive thoughts and people tell me I have a great attitude and outlook on life now. Boy how that was different 4 years ago.

    I can only think how many people, who unlike me had the balls to do something completely insane, would have gone on to see brighter days too.

    When times are tough the world is a cold, brutal and merciless place. But things do get better and do improve with time, and while some **** might still judge me negatively and look down on me etc but I am in a place now where I can finally shut off all negativity and also not give a single **** what people think either. Life's improved for me hugely and it's slowly keeps getting better and everyday and I finally feel happy.

    So if anybody has suicidal thoughts or ye know somebody who does dont let suicide happen. It is really impossible to believe when you are going through it, I know this from first hand experience, but things do get better and depression does pass.


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    #55
    nadey
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭nadey


    Theflyingegg wrote: »
    I was suicidal in my teen years had no friends, lonely, felt unless, etc but somewhere along the line my whole mentality shifted for the better and now I think nothing but positive thoughts and people tell me I have a great attitude and outlook on life now. Boy how that was different 4 years ago.

    I can only think how many people, who unlike me had the balls to do something completely insane, would have gone on to see brighter days too.

    When times are tough the world is a cold, brutal and merciless place. But things do get better and do improve with time, and while some **** might still judge me negatively and look down on me etc but I am in a place now where I can finally shut off all negativity and also not give a single **** what people think either. Life's improved for me hugely and it's slowly keeps getting better and everyday and I finally feel happy.

    So if anybody has suicidal thoughts or ye know somebody who does dont let suicide happen. It is really impossible to believe when you are going through it, I know this from first hand experience, but things do get better and depression does pass.

    It mighnt pass for those with clinical depression, but theres ways of dealing with it


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    #56
    Maybe_Memories
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭Maybe_Memories


    nadey wrote: »
    It mighnt pass for those with clinical depression, but theres ways of dealing with it

    Exactly - despite what some people have said it is very much an illness, and like any other illness there are ways of treating it or lessening the effect it has on you but not necessarily fully curable.


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    #57
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Theflyingegg wrote: »
    I was suicidal in my teen years had no friends, lonely, felt unless, etc but somewhere along the line my whole mentality shifted for the better and now I think nothing but positive thoughts and people tell me I have a great attitude and outlook on life now.

    Nice to hear a positive account there - and this is your own business entirely, so no problem if you don't want to go into it - but do you know what it was that turned things around for you?


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    #58
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,208 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    nadey wrote: »
    Because you obviously dont have a clue what clinical depression and GAD is like to cope with every single day

    Dont be so dense

    Dial down the aggression and personal remarks.

    That goes for everyone

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #59
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    nadey wrote: »
    What can be done about this epidemic

    I'm dying to know.


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    #60
    my teapot is orange
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭my teapot is orange


    I think it's cultural. There is too much social pressure to conform and be the same as everybody else. It's fine if you are fairly similar to the rest but must be a horrible existence if you're not. In other places, nobody will care or talk about the person who is quite different, or inquisitively want to know why. People just get on with their own lives.

    I suspect you can even see this within Ireland. In rural areas where people are more homogenous, suicide rates are higher. In urban areas where there is more diversity and diversity is accepted more, they are lower.


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    #61
    Eramen
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Eramen


    my teapot is orange wrote: »
    I think it's cultural. There is too much social pressure to conform and be the same as everybody else. It's fine if you are fairly similar to the rest but must be a horrible existence if you're not. In other places, nobody will care or talk about the person who is quite different, or inquisitively want to know why. People just get on with their own lives.

    I suspect you can even see this within Ireland. In rural areas where people are more homogenous, suicide rates are higher. In urban areas where there is more diversity and diversity is accepted more, they are lower.


    So the crux of what you're saying is that we must conform to diversity? I have to confess that this makes little sense.

    People in general are acceptant of almost every type of personality, and even some of the more outlandish personality issues, however they are not tolerant of people who substitute their ideology in place of their personality, as you have done. Too often people wear their politics, hence their sub-cultural 'identity' on their sleeves, and this leads to wholesale social friction as people force it into the public sphere where is seeks to demolish other people's sense of being. This 'tension' is really what you're relating to.

    People must learn to stop wearing their superficial 'beliefs' and other pseudo-political moralities in place of their genuine character if we want to go anywhere as a society. Society is based on compromise and reason.. it's not based on one's own personal intellectual fantasies which others 'must' simply comply with or else they must face the wrath of your right to be offended.


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