Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

Unavailable for Comment · 22-03-2012 5:24pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Just giving my view. I wouldnt feel it would be giving me special treatment. I would be treated the same as everyone else. Ive never suggested everyone would be happy with it but sure you cant please everyone.

Fair enough. I just don't think that's reason enough to discomfit people.

Whatever you think of the reasons for it these women really would be upset by such requests and personally I would put their genuine emotional distress above the niggling thought that certain sections of society might benefit from a completely irrelevant courtesy that I don't.

dirtyden · 22-03-2012 6:31pm

The purpose of an ID card is to uniquely identify the owner. I do not see how that is possible with a Hijab on. Unless another unique identifier is associated with the ID like a retinal scan or fingerprint that can be easily read by wherever needs the ID I am afraid I dont see how the Garda could sanction the ID.

If the Islamic council comes up with a workable solution then fair enough, until then they should abide by the law of the land.

Seachmall · 22-03-2012 6:35pm

dirtyden wrote: »

The purpose of an ID card is to uniquely identify the owner. I do not see how that is possible with a Hijab on. Unless another unique identifier is associated with the ID like a retinal scan or fingerprint that can be easily read by wherever needs the ID I am afraid I dont see how the Garda could sanction the ID.

If the Islamic council comes up with a workable solution then fair enough, until then they should abide by the law of the land.

The Hijab only covers the hair, ears and neck.

Hair can be changed, ears can be covered by hair, and necks can be covered by clothes. So they're not identifiable features, and the Hijab doesn't impede the purpose of the ID card.

dirtyden · 22-03-2012 6:46pm

Seachmall wrote: »

The Hijab only covers the hair, ears and neck.

Hair can be changed, ears can be covered by hair, and necks can be covered by clothes. So they're not identifiable features, and the Hijab doesn't impede the purpose of the ID card.

Why not get an ID card with a motor bike helmet on then?

hondasam · 22-03-2012 6:49pm

dirtyden wrote: »

Why not get an ID card with a motor bike helmet on then?

This is just silly. Why are people saying a helmet is the same thing as a scarf.
We all look different in our passport photos, women look different with and without make up.

Seachmall · 22-03-2012 6:50pm

dirtyden wrote: »

Why not get an ID card with a motor bike helmet on then?

Because a motorbike helmet covers and distorts the face, even with the visor up.

A more reasonable question/comparison would be "Why not get an ID card with long hair then?".

Thwip! · 22-03-2012 7:22pm

Does this mean that those who follow the Jedi religion can wear their hoods?

Freddie59 · 23-03-2012 2:47pm

wes wrote: »

When, they are unable to actually stick to facts, and are essentially making stuff up that never happened to justify there views, then that would be a yes. Unsurprised, that you would as per usual agree with stuff that never happened. The best you can come up with is a rolleyes, which is very much a typical broken record response from yourself. The fact remains the law was not broken, which was the basis of my point, and in fact you don't address my point at all, again a not uncommon response from yourself.

The fact that remains is that this is Ireland. Not some Muslim country. Uour ball - our rules. Get over it. Sticks and stones, etc.:rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 23-03-2012 2:48pm

wes wrote: »

The Women went to the cultural centre and told them about it, and then the cultural center contacted the Gardai, and it turned out that the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

So what was their problem then?

keithclancy · 23-03-2012 3:13pm

FFS, this whole thing is like reverse racism or something.

If they made them wear a symbol on their clothing for photos BECAUSE of their religion then people would be up in arms screaming all sorts.

But when their treated the same as everyone else thats wrong ?

Horsesh*t.

I'll give you another example:

Here in the Netherlands its legally required to have health insurance if you work.

Get this:
http://www.cvz.nl/en/insurance/zvw/zvw.html

Exemption from the obligation to take out insurance

Two groups are exempt from the obligation to take out insurance:

conscientious objectors: people who do not want to take out insurance because of their religion or beliefs;
soldiers on active service.

keithclancy · 23-03-2012 3:14pm

Actually I might ring up and tell them "Jesus is my Health Insurance"

wes · 23-03-2012 3:14pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

So what was their problem then?

I don't know. Some people seem to think they did something illegal.

prinz · 23-03-2012 3:29pm

keithclancy wrote: »

Here in the Netherlands its legally required to have health insurance if you work.

"Neddy doesn't believe in insurance, he considers it a form of gambling."

alastair · 23-03-2012 3:49pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

The fact that remains is that this is Ireland. Not some Muslim country. Uour ball - our rules. Get over it. Sticks and stones, etc.:rolleyes:

I understood our country allowed freedom of religious expression?

Sir Gallagher · 23-03-2012 3:53pm

Fair played to the Gardai on this one, a request was made, they weighed it up and responded with reason.

Some of the responses here are embarrasing. "why can't i wear a helmet/balaclava", "our country our rules", "dey durk er jobbs". Unsurprising considering the amount of nouveau wannabe right-wingers/brow-beating athiests you find in AH these days.

23-03-2012 3:55pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Fair played to the Gardai on this one, a request was made, they weighed it up and responded with reason.

Some of the responses here are embarrasing. "why can't i wear a helmet/balaclava", "our country our rules", "dey durk er jobbs". Unsurprising considering the amount of nouveau wannabe right-wingers/brow-beating athiests you find in AH these days.

You're right, all non-muslims are atheists

keithclancy · 23-03-2012 4:03pm

alastair wrote: »

I understood our country allowed freedom of religious expression?

As long as you don't march down the road in Dublin wearing an Orange outfit.

Sir Gallagher · 23-03-2012 4:08pm

bluewolf wrote: »

You're right, all non-muslims are atheists

Where did i say that?

Edgar Allan Poe · 23-03-2012 4:17pm

If I cant wear my top hat then headwear should be strictly out. It is made from the finest of chinese silk and the jaunty angle I wear it at in no way decieves the peelers as to who I am.

The imaginary entity that rules so many humans just makes life (and death) a pain in the rear for the rest of us. Church should NEVER dictate tothe state. Ireland of all "her children" should have learned that at this stage. If you havent, then you deserve that everything you get - and that your children get.

dublin daz · 23-03-2012 4:20pm

International law or Sharia law? The face-covrings are not protected under international or Irish law. My sister had her Passport application returned because her fringe was over her eyebrows.

This is Ireland, not Saudi Arabia. The likelihood of sand blowing into their hair or face is minimal and they should be treated like anyone else.

If they feel unhappy with how things are done here then the question that needs to be asked is why are they here?

Freddie59 · 23-03-2012 4:23pm

alastair wrote: »

I understood our country allowed freedom of religious expression?

The law supersedes it in this instance. Thankfully. When in Rome, etc.

Well, I suppose you might considering religious freedom women being forced to wear ludicrous garments. I don't. And neither do many others.

Unavailable for Comment · 23-03-2012 4:43pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

The law supersedes it in this instance. Thankfully. When in Rome, etc.

There's no legal obligation. Just please try and commit the one salient fact from that article to memory.

Freddie59 wrote: »

Well, I suppose you might considering religious freedom women being forced to wear ludicrous garments. I don't. And neither do many others.

But somehow your definition of freedom is forcing women to remove them? Nice!

Logical Fallacy · 23-03-2012 4:48pm

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

when in rome.....

There is something suitably funny about a phrase of religious origin being used in this context.:)

tigger123 · 23-03-2012 4:51pm

alastair wrote: »

I understood our country allowed freedom of religious expression?

"I thought this was America?!"

alastair · 23-03-2012 5:08pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

The law supersedes it in this instance.

Ehhhh, not sure how to break this but... :rolleyes:

dirtyden · 23-03-2012 5:33pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Fair played to the Gardai on this one, a request was made, they weighed it up and responded with reason.

Some of the responses here are embarrasing. "why can't i wear a helmet/balaclava", "our country our rules", "dey durk er jobbs". Unsurprising considering the amount of nouveau wannabe right-wingers/brow-beating athiests you find in AH these days.

What about other religoius freedoms, perhaps the stoning of adulterers, should that be allowed too?

This is a secular state, regulations should not be influenced by any religion. Where should the line be drawn?

If you want an ID card you follow the rules. A photo can be taken in the comfort of ones own home, I dont see how this limits anyones religious freedom. I think its more of a case of the PC brigade on here needing to demonstrate their unthinking empathy.

alastair · 23-03-2012 5:50pm

dirtyden wrote: »

What about other religoius freedoms, perhaps the stoning of adulterers, should that be allowed too?

This is a secular state, regulations should not be influenced by any religion. Where should the line be drawn?

If you want an ID card you follow the rules. A photo can be taken in the comfort of ones own home, I dont see how this limits anyones religious freedom. I think its more of a case of the PC brigade on here needing to demonstrate their unthinking empathy.

As we've established - the rules allow for wearing a scarf. I'm pretty certain that stoning people is a distinct and different catagory from scarf-wearing. Nice crisis-mongering though!

hondasam · 23-03-2012 5:55pm

dirtyden wrote: »

If you want an ID card you follow the rules. A photo can be taken in the comfort of ones own home, I dont see how this limits anyones religious freedom. I think its more of a case of the PC brigade on here needing to demonstrate their unthinking empathy.

This photo is for the GNIB card, this photo is taken by the gardai, it's not taken in the comfort of your own home. It's taken at the airport.

Sir Gallagher · 23-03-2012 6:15pm

dirtyden wrote: »

What about other religoius freedoms, perhaps the stoning of adulterers, should that be allowed too?

This is a secular state, regulations should not be influenced by any religion. Where should the line be drawn?

If you want an ID card you follow the rules. A photo can be taken in the comfort of ones own home, I dont see how this limits anyones religious freedom. I think its more of a case of the PC brigade on here needing to demonstrate their unthinking empathy.

Naturally i would be fine with the stoning of adulterers as an unthinking empathising member of PC brigade.

dirtyden · 23-03-2012 6:29pm

alastair wrote: »

As we've established - the rules allow for wearing a scarf. I'm pretty certain that stoning people is a distinct and different catagory from scarf-wearing. Nice crisis-mongering though!

Where is the problem then?

Spacedog · 23-03-2012 6:32pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Proper order. Religion is not a get out of jail free card when it comes to observing law.

It is you're a pedo priest... oh you meant other religions.

Vico1612 · 23-03-2012 6:40pm

Just check the Garda website and can see any info about this ...
http://burkavision.co.uk/www.garda.ie

Freddie59 · 23-03-2012 7:17pm

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

But somehow your definition of freedom is forcing women to remove them? Nice!

So you agree with women being forced to wear blankets then?

Celly Smunt · 23-03-2012 7:22pm

Ireland is a secular republic (apparently),outward expression of ANY religion shouldn't be fostered.

But then again it's Ireland.

gozunda · 23-03-2012 7:34pm

dirtyden wrote: »

The purpose of an ID card is to uniquely identify the owner. I do not see how that is possible with a Hijab on. Unless another unique identifier is associated with the ID like a retinal scan or fingerprint that can be easily read by wherever needs the ID I am afraid I dont see how the Garda could sanction the ID.

If the Islamic council comes up with a workable solution then fair enough, until then they should abide by the law of the land.

LINK

Sir Gallagher · 23-03-2012 7:35pm

pmcmahon wrote: »

Ireland is a secular republic (apparently),outward expression of ANY religion shouldn't be fostered.

But then again it's Ireland.

So the grannies going to mass on a Sunday should have their crosses and beads taken off them?

gozunda · 23-03-2012 7:36pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

....Unsurprising considering the amount of nouveau wannabe right-wingers/brow-beating athiests you find in AH these days.

Oh Yeah! Bring back De Valeras 1950's Ireland! Put them all living with de nuns and de brothers...Then we wouldn't have this problem! Simples

Celly Smunt · 23-03-2012 7:36pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

So the grannies going to mass on a Sunday should have their crosses and beads taken off them?

Yes unless on church property,just look at the rest of the secular republics in western Europe.

Sir Gallagher · 23-03-2012 7:41pm

pmcmahon wrote: »

Yes unless on church property,just look at the rest of the secular republics in western Europe.

Yeah France.. fine example there. What you're talking about borders on fascism.

Celly Smunt · 23-03-2012 7:42pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Yeah France.. fine example there. What you're talking about borders on fascism.

No it's being a secular republic.Read a book.

Sir Gallagher · 23-03-2012 7:58pm

pmcmahon wrote: »

No it's being a secular republic.Read a book.

Just any book?

What will banning all outward displays of religion in Ireland achieve?

irishconvert · 14-04-2012 12:13am

Pataman wrote: »

They should be made remove it. If they are stopped at the side of the road the garda has no way of checking fingerprints.

How does a head scarf matter? Should a woman who has long hair when the photo is taken not be allowed cut her hair or dye it in the future as she will no longer look exactly the same as the photo? Nonsense argument and showing the true colours of the anti-Islam posters.

dublin daz · 14-04-2012 12:20am

irishconvert wrote: »

How does a head scarf matter? Should a woman who has long hair when the photo is taken not be allowed cut her hair or dye it in the future as she will no longer look exactly the same as the photo? Nonsense argument and showing the true colours of the anti-Islam posters.

Its not about being anti-anything. Hair is natural, head scarves or other face-masks are not.

You are required to remove a helmet as a cyclist when entering a bank, thats given you remove it for passport pictures.

In terms of ant-anything. Whats this headline say to Irish people?

Islamic terrorists issue threat against Jedward ahead of Eurovision - http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/music/islamic-terrorists-issue-threat-against-jedward-ahead-of-eurovision-3080269.html

irishconvert · 14-04-2012 12:27am

dublin daz wrote: »

Its not about being anti-anything. Hair is natural, head scarves or other face-masks are not.

You are required to remove a helmet as a cyclist when entering a bank, thats given you remove it for passport pictures.

But if a woman has long black hair when the photo is taken, and then she cuts it short and dyes it blond, she will look totally different. A woman wearing a head scarf would be more recognisable.

dublin daz wrote: »

In terms of ant-anything. Whats this headline say to Irish people?

Islamic terrorists issue threat against Jedward ahead of Eurovision - http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/music/islamic-terrorists-issue-threat-against-jedward-ahead-of-eurovision-3080269.html

What has this got to do with anything? Please tell me the relevance.

dublin daz · 14-04-2012 12:36am

irishconvert wrote: »

But if a woman has long black hair when the photo is taken, and then she cuts it short and dyes it blond, she will look totally different. A woman wearing a head scarf would be more recognisable.

What has this got to do with anything? Please tell me the relevance.

I don't know how to multi-quote.

1. How can changing the colour of your hair be equated with concealing your face behind a mask or covering it under a scarf? Is wearing a head-scarf like someone undergoing radiotherapy losing his or her hair, ultimately changing his or her appearance?

2. You are pulling the anti-Islam card. No one said anything about being anti-Islam. Irish people in general don't have a problem with Islam or Muslims.

The reason I posted that was to highlight where a source of this alleged anti-Islam sentiment may stem. When Europeans are referred to as scum, it can hardly promote friendly relations. So it can hardly be a surprise *if* there is a perceived anti-Islam sentiment.

irishconvert · 14-04-2012 12:42am

dublin daz wrote: »

I don't know how to multi-quote.

1. How can changing the colour of your hair be equated with concealing your face behind a mask or covering it under a scarf? Is wearing a head-scarf like someone undergoing radiotherapy losing his or her hair, ultimately changing his or her appearance?

If the Muslim woman is wearing a head scarf when the photo is taken, she will looks the same in the photo as in real life wearing the scarf. Are you telling me it is impossible to identify a person if their hair is concealed with a scarf?

dublin daz wrote: »

2. You are pulling the anti-Islam card. No one said anything about being anti-Islam. Irish people in general don't have a problem with Islam or Muslims.

The reason I posted that was to highlight where a source of this alleged anti-Islam sentiment may stem. When Europeans are referred to as scum, it can hardly promote friendly relations. So it can hardly be a surprise *if* there is a perceived anti-Islam sentiment.

Did you ever hear the expression don't believe everything you read in the papers. It amazes me that a grown adult would take that "article" seriously. The headline is seriously misleading, there was no threat specifically against Jedward. In fact there is no proof or source of where the so called "threat" came from. Lazy lazy reporting, just trying to sell papers.

FueledByAisling · 14-04-2012 1:01am

WHAT THE HELL!? My photo got rejected because my fringe was sligggggggghtly in the way, how are they getting away with this?!

Smidge · 14-04-2012 1:53am

Muslim women are not forced to wear Hijab, the the Quran states that there is no compulsion within the religion to wear it(2:256). They wear it to be seen as modest women. If a woman who had undergone chemotherapy or had alopecia wanted to wear a headscarf for this photo I.D would it be allowed?
I have no problem with their religious beliefs and believe everyone has the right to their religion but on this occasion feel that the hijab should be removed for the short period of time it would take for the photo to be taken

Grayson · 14-04-2012 2:13am

I didn't read the whole thread. It's late. I got to page 2 and skipped to the end.
But as someone at the beginning said, it's not necessary to remove the headscarve for passport photo's.

The reason is because it doesn't stop them from being identified. This isn't a full burka. It covers just their hair.

For many muslims it's an important part of their culture. This is ireland. It's not Kemal Ataturks Turkey where soldiers went out into the streets and tore scarves and veils from womens faces. Here people are allowed to express their culture so long as it's within the bounds of the law. In this case no law was broken. It wasn't the law (unless you refer to the gardai as the "law") that forced these women to remove the hijab, it was a stupid regulation.

In my telling women what not to wear is as bad as telling them what to wear.

@mishkalucy. Muslims follow not just the Koran but hadiths too. Just as christians don't just follow the bible.

I'm not sure why you're referencing that sura in respect to this argument

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in God (ar. Allah), then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And God is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

I would think this is more relevant and does actually state that women should cover themselves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab#Qur.27an

(I know people are going to jump on it and say that women shouldn't have to wear anything. What I'm saying is that if they choose to wear a hijab and it's an integral part of their religion/culture, then they should be allowed the same religious freedom others have. I mean, you don't hear of Sikh men being called oppressed or being prevented from wearing turbans)

Smidge · 14-04-2012 2:26am

@ Grayson
I have no problem whatsoever with them wearing whatever they like and as you stated that they "should" not must wear the hijab.
You didn't comment on the part off my post as to the women being allowed wear scarves for other elements of modesty ie baldness.
I referenced that as that was what I found when reading up before posting tonight, nothing more, nothing less as I don't claim to be an expert in sharia law:)
Surely though you can accept that for a couple of minutes in a photo booth would not cause them to become harlots or any less of a muslim woman?

Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

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