Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Sierra Oscar · 26-03-2014 7:42pm

Godge wrote: »

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=55651&B=&PS=2&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

It was staring them in the face in 2008.

No where in that tender does it mention recording conversations that should not have been recorded. There was an assumption that the recording was being used to record 999 calls and the likes as would be standard. Recording other calls is a different matter entirely, and that is where the problem lies seemingly.

We know that the system was originally setup to help record bomb threats and the likes, which is acceptable. However it now seems that all calls were being recorded, including internal ones, and that these were being improperly accessed.

Going Forward · 26-03-2014 7:42pm

Godge wrote: »

That is a list of frequently asked questions.

That doesn't cover every genuine situation.

e.g. I was driving to the hospital, my wife was having a baby but I was only slightly over the speed limit (birth cert as proof)

I could go on but there are no doubt other genuine reasons not covered by the FAQ that will be excused.

By your own standards they have still broken the law and should face the consequences, like the whistle blowers?

26-03-2014 7:44pm

i think its fairly obvious that Godge was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of people, who feel its quite ok for the whistleblowers to access any amount of private data and put it out there, but then blow their tops over phone calls to stations being recorded without their knowledge.

so Shatter 'apologised', well i suppose that means he is going no-where.
arrogant doesnt even begin to describe that man.

bajer101 · 26-03-2014 7:45pm

Godge wrote: »

Reading that it is clear that McCabe was told to deal with O'Mahony.

"If you have any further concerns and without prejudice of your rights under the Confidential Reporting Mechanism such matters can be brought to the attention of Assistant Commissioner John O Mahony, Crime and Security, who will fully investigate those matters"

Maybe I am stupid but that reads to me like a directive to co-operate with O'Mahony's investigation. I don't think McCabe's word stands up on this point

Are you going to apologise and withdraw that comment (not the "maybe I am stupid" part), and all the other posts where you have been proven to be clearly wrong? Shatter has apologised and withdrawn his statement where he claimed that the whistleblowers didn't cooperate with the investigation, so the above instruction obviously wasn't a directive to cooperate with the investigation.

Godge · 26-03-2014 7:45pm

Going Forward wrote: »

By your own standards they have still broken the law and should face the consequences, like the whistle blowers?

Good point, but that is an ordinary person in my example, not a Garda charged with upholding the law.

26-03-2014 7:46pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Are you going to apologise and withdraw that comment (not the "maybe I am stupid" part), and all the other posts where you have been proven to be clearly wrong? Shatter has apologised and withdrawn his statement where he claimed that the whistleblowers didn't cooperate with the investigation, so the above instruction obviously wasn't a directive to cooperate with the investigation.

ah he only apologised to keep his job!
we all know he didnt mean a bit of it!

fr3d12 · 26-03-2014 7:53pm

bubblypop wrote: »

i think its fairly obvious that Godge was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of people, who feel its quite ok for the whistleblowers to access any amount of private data and put it out there, but then blow their tops over phone calls to stations being recorded without their knowledge.

so Shatter 'apologised', well i suppose that means he is going no-where.
arrogant doesnt even begin to describe that man.

I think there's a big difference between a WB passing on the name of a celebrity or whoever had points illegally cancelled to a TD and the taping of conversations in Garda stations that could have serious consequences for this state.
Shatter won't go anywhere, that was obvious from the start, only labour could oust him now and they won't for numerous reasons.

Going Forward · 26-03-2014 7:55pm

Godge wrote: »

Good point, but that is an ordinary person in my example, not a Garda charged with upholding the law.

Sorry, that doesn't wash.

The same could be said for the Guards who wiped the points.

Godge · 26-03-2014 7:57pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Are you going to apologise and withdraw that comment (not the "maybe I am stupid" part), and all the other posts where you have been proven to be clearly wrong? Shatter has apologised and withdrawn his statement where he claimed that the whistleblowers didn't cooperate with the investigation, so the above instruction obviously wasn't a directive to cooperate with the investigation.

(1) I haven't read Shatter's statement and I will but he probably made it to save his skin
(2) Maybe I am stupid but it still reads to me at the very least like an invitation to go to O'Mahony, which was ignored.

fr3d12 · 26-03-2014 7:59pm

Godge wrote: »

(1) I haven't read Shatter's statement and I will but he probably made it to save his skin
(2) Maybe I am stupid but it still reads to me at the very least like an invitation to go to O'Mahony, which was ignored.

So now you are saying that Shatter was telling the truth when he made the statement last October and is lying now to save his own skin?

26-03-2014 8:01pm

fr3d12 wrote: »

So now you are saying that Shatter was telling the truth when he made the statement last October and is lying now to save his own skin?

i think its fairly obvious that he is only saying what he has to in order to keep his job.
it was hardly a sincere apology

fr3d12 · 26-03-2014 8:03pm

bubblypop wrote: »

i think its fairly obvious that he is only saying what he has to in order to keep his job.
it was hardly a sincere apology

As a member of AGS are you allowed make those assumptions without proof:D
I do agree with you though.

bajer101 · 26-03-2014 8:12pm

Shatter's apology to the Whistleblowers.

26-03-2014 8:14pm

LOL!!:D

fr3d12 · 26-03-2014 8:18pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Shatter's apology to the Whistleblowers.

Yup that's it exactly

raymon · 26-03-2014 8:39pm

What I would like to know is did Dermot Ahern sanction the purchasing of the digital recording equipment ??

renegademaster · 26-03-2014 9:01pm

May 2001: Shatter DEMANDS action on recorded phone conversations between solicitors & clients in Donegal Garda station (via www.twitter.com/Effanning )

26-03-2014 9:03pm

renegademaster wrote: »

May 2001: Shatter DEMANDS action on recorded phone conversations between solicitors & clients in Donegal Garda station (via www.twitter.com/Effanning )

ooh, this is getting better!!

renegademaster · 26-03-2014 9:09pm

bubblypop wrote: »

ooh, this is getting better!!

i found it gas how he was so specific during his take the piss speech this mornin regarding the times he recieved his post "informing" him of the garda calls monitoring

PMSLWROFL!!!

mikom · 26-03-2014 9:20pm

Shatter is an outright liar.
This is what a school-going child just learning their moral code will be told is the minister for justice.
Good Jaysus........

Sand · 26-03-2014 9:28pm

Shatter believes he is self evidently smarter *and* more honest than anyone else. That is what makes it so dangerous for him to be running Justice. He is another Nixon, in that he believes that if he does something it cant be illegal, corrupt or immoral.

FG cant run another election campaign on the theme of transparency and reform in government. They are at this point a lukewarm Fianna Fail, completely lacking any moral compass or vision for Ireland that goes beyond getting their snouts in the trough. And Kenny is being badly found out as the son of a Mayo TD, promoted way over his capability.

tayto lover · 26-03-2014 9:28pm

Read a letter from a retired garda in the Indo this morning about the GRA proposing a policing body all of 30 years ago but being denied any hearing from their bosses and any politicians. Was interesting that they proposed that 30 years.

Banjo String · 26-03-2014 9:32pm

Labour are starting to emerge.

Howlin exclaiming he backs Shatter.....

Another nail in their coffin.

tayto lover · 26-03-2014 9:36pm

Banjo String wrote: »

Labour are starting to emerge.

Howlin exclaiming he backs Shatter.....

Another nail in their coffin.

Labour's coffin is well nailed already.
Not one fecker came to my door canvassing for the council elections yet :mad:

renegademaster · 26-03-2014 9:43pm

Sand wrote: »

Shatter believes he is self evidently smarter *and* more honest than anyone else. That is what makes it so dangerous for him to be running Justice. He is another Nixon, in that he believes that if he does something it cant be illegal, corrupt or immoral.

FG cant run another election campaign on the theme of transparency and reform in government. They are at this point a lukewarm Fianna Fail, completely lacking any moral compass or vision for Ireland that goes beyond getting their snouts in the trough. And Kenny is being badly found out as the son of a Mayo TD, promoted way over his capability.

they're all the same and we keep affording them all the time in the world to line their pockets and make a complete farce of Irish politics by clinging onto the gravy train for dear life!! we're intent on letting them away with it until april 2016 when enda is throwing the next general elections ffs!! sure it's game on for the corrupt like

Banjo String wrote: »

Labour are starting to emerge.

Howlin exclaiming he backs Shatter.....

Another nail in their coffin.

the government have shown themselves to be no different than fianna fail in their dying days!! we need to end this bull$hit for a government yesterday!!

fr3d12 · 26-03-2014 9:55pm

renegademaster wrote: »

they're all the same and we keep affording them all the time in the world to line their pockets and make a complete farce of Irish politics by clinging onto the gravy train for dear life!! we're intent on letting them away with it until april 2016 when enda is throwing the next general elections ffs!! sure it's game on for the corrupt like

the government have shown themselves to be no different than fianna fail in their dying days!! we need to end this bull$hit for a government yesterday!!

I'm not sure that Shatter has been determined to hang on just for the gravy train, his salary and expenses as a minister is only pocket change to him.
He is arrogant,vain and it's all about his ego and the legislation he introduces that he wants to be remembered for.
Labour are on his side because he is most likely of all potential FG justice ministers to help with their liberal agenda, i.e gay marriage etc.

The problem with getting them out is that are very few TD's in Leinster House who would want a general election now, many of them would be back to the old day jobs and might actually have to work for a living because so many would npt be re-elected.
Labour know they would be obliterated at the polls if they pulled out now so Gilmore is hoping against hope that he can get the public back onside by the next election.

renegademaster · 26-03-2014 10:00pm

fr3d12 wrote: »

I'm not sure that Shatter has been determined to hang on just for the gravy train, his salary and expenses as a minister is only pocket change to him.
He is arrogant,vain and it's all about his ego and the legislation he introduces that he wants to be remembered for.

absolute power corrupts absolutely

fr3d12 · 26-03-2014 10:03pm

renegademaster wrote: »

absolute power corrupts absolutely

So very true and so blatantly obvious in this case.

Going Forward · 26-03-2014 11:40pm

bubblypop wrote: »

i think its fairly obvious that he is only saying what he has to in order to keep his job.
it was hardly a sincere apology

His body language really gave him away.

Reading an apology from a script, not having the good grace or manners to lift his head or his face to the house as he apologised.

It's how a child apologises under duress, with their chin on their chest, afraid to look the parent in the eye, with no understanding or acceptance of WHY they have to say sorry.

You are right, the question is why did he apologise?

_Kaiser_ · 26-03-2014 11:54pm

Going Forward wrote: »

You are right, the question is why did he apologise?

That's simple - himself and Enda figure that an apology on record (insincere though it was) will be enough to put this to bed.

Whether or not it works will depend on the next few days but journalists whinging in the press won't be enough.

Look at it from their perspective - why should he/they resign? Do we have protesters on the street? Gilmore demanding he resigns or they'll walk out of government? Of course not! That's not how we do things in Ireland.

renegademaster · 27-03-2014 12:00am

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's simple - himself and Enda figure that an apology on record (insincere though it was) will be enough to put this to bed.

Whether or not it works will depend on the next few days but journalists whinging in the press won't be enough.

Look at it from their perspective - why should he/they resign? Do we have protesters on the street? Gilmore demanding he resigns or they'll walk out of government? Of course not! That's not how we do things in Ireland.

this has got a lot of legs yet!!

May 2001: Shatter DEMANDS action on recorded phone conversations between solicitors & clients in Donegal Garda station (via www.twitter.com/Effanning ) :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

sopretty · 27-03-2014 12:00am

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's simple - himself and Enda figure that an apology on record (insincere though it was) will be enough to put this to bed.

Whether or not it works will depend on the next few days but journalists whinging in the press won't be enough.

Look at it from their perspective - why should he/they resign? Do we have protesters on the street? Gilmore demanding he resigns or they'll walk out of government? Of course not! That's not how we do things in Ireland.

I think we're relying on the Independents and SF to keep the pressure on to be honest. Thought the Independents did themselves proud this morning.

renegademaster · 27-03-2014 12:06am

sopretty wrote: »

I think we're relying on the Independents and SF to keep the pressure on to be honest. Thought the Independents did themselves proud this morning.

we should be out ont he streets peacefully driving the message home in large numbers that the days of lying through their teeth and spinning all manner of bull$hit to the people who both elect them and pay their fcuking wages are over.

simple as that, if we had one mass protest we could gauge the response and act accordingly, massively outnumbering any nutters who may want to cause trouble, peaceful family protests, either that or they're out now and we demand better from the next crowd of ba$tards!!

fr3d12 · 27-03-2014 12:24am

This new saga has been orchestrated with the possible exception being Varadkar speaking out.
The Govt. needed to find a way to bring the station bugging into the public domain while minimising the damage and at the same time hoping to appease their critics by letting Callinan go, whether or not the bugging had anything to do with Callinan is another matter and now with todays insincere apology they are hoping to end the penalty points issue while being seen as reforming etc.
The only positive out of Shatter's speech is that the Dail record is going to be corrected, that's about all the satisfaction they are going to give in all of this, as long as the Govt. keep singing from the same hymn sheet about when Shatter became aware of the new allegations nothing will change.

Going Forward · 27-03-2014 12:31am

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's simple - himself and Enda figure that an apology on record (insincere though it was) will be enough to put this to bed.

Whether or not it works will depend on the next few days but journalists whinging in the press won't be enough.

Look at it from their perspective - why should he/they resign? Do we have protesters on the street? Gilmore demanding he resigns or they'll walk out of government? Of course not! That's not how we do things in Ireland.

Fianna Fail Lite, learning the ropes pretty well, now quite adept at pulling the odd stroke, when required.

The media coaching agencies have succeeded in manufacturing bland, completely untrustworthy identikit political parties, playing hard and loose with the English language, to a point where Yes means No and no one can discern whether any politician is speaking truthfully anymore.
Orwell would be proud.

My trust in politicians has again been Shattered by Alan's (as his cabinet colleagues on radio early today (Coveny etc.) were obviously instructed to continually refer to him) failure to step down for repeated grave errors of judgement.

aloyisious · 27-03-2014 1:28am

Having just listened to the VB show and what one of his guests said/intimated, I'm wondering now if there is any import to the fact that after the AG phones Enda on Sunday and tell's him she want's to talk to him, and he say's Ok, that she tell's him she didn't want to tell him what it is about over the phone.

Enda told the Dail on Wednesday that was what the AG said to him on Sunday, when she contacted him to arrange a meeting. The meeting (when it took place) seem's to have been for her to tell him about the Gardai bugging phones without warrant. The next day (Monday) Enda get's the Secretary General of the D of J visit Commissioner Callinan, which is followed on Tuesday by Comm Callinan leaving office suddenly.

Was Enda sending out a signal to all the TD's in the Dail that the AG didn't trust the safety of her phone, or was he unaware of how his statement could be misinterpreted?

mickdw · 27-03-2014 1:49am

aloyisious wrote: »

Having just listened to the VB show and what one of his guests said/intimated, I'm wondering now if there is any import to the fact that after the AG phones Enda on Sunday and tell's him she want's to talk to him, and he say's Ok, that she tell's him she didn't want to tell him what it is about over the phone.

Enda told the Dail on Wednesday that was what the AG said to him on Sunday, when she contacted him to arrange a meeting. The meeting (when it took place) seem's to have been for her to tell him about the Gardai bugging phones without warrant. The next day (Monday) Enda get's the Secretary General of the D of J visit Commissioner Callinan, which is followed on Tuesday by Comm Callinan leaving office suddenly.

Was Enda sending out a signal to all the TD's in the Dail that the AG didn't trust the safety of her phone, or was he unaware of how his statement could be misinterpreted?

I think it was the only excuse he could come up with to explain the delay. Judging by the way he stud there almost waiting to take inevitable abuse that would result from that statement, he looked to be talking pure crap.

renegademaster · 27-03-2014 2:11am

aloyisious wrote: »

Was Enda sending out a signal to all the TD's in the Dail that the AG didn't trust the safety of her phone, or was he unaware of how his statement could be misinterpreted?

i doubt it, sure the whole dail erupted in laughter today when he said it

raymon · 27-03-2014 9:22am

http://www.thejournal.ie/the-last-justice-minister-said-he-was-not-aware-garda-recordings-were-taking-place-1382794-Mar2014/

Come on Dermot Ahern and John o Donohue. What did you know.??

norrie rugger · 27-03-2014 9:27am

Godge wrote: »

I will ask you one more time - withdraw and apologise.

Who the hell do you think you are?
Go off with you and your "withdraw and apologise"?

I am completely opposed to SO's politics and feel that he is acting as a FFer finally having something to gloat about (even though yes, all the bugging started under FF watch) But he is never anything but up front and courteous in his presentation.

You on the other hand are anything but in your presentations of your opinions.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 27-03-2014 9:33am

Da interntz. Srs business.

golfball37 · 27-03-2014 9:40am

fr3d12 wrote: »

This new saga has been orchestrated with the possible exception being Varadkar speaking out.
The Govt. needed to find a way to bring the station bugging into the public domain while minimising the damage and at the same time hoping to appease their critics by letting Callinan go, whether or not the bugging had anything to do with Callinan is another matter and now with todays insincere apology they are hoping to end the penalty points issue while being seen as reforming etc.
The only positive out of Shatter's speech is that the Dail record is going to be corrected, that's about all the satisfaction they are going to give in all of this, as long as the Govt. keep singing from the same hymn sheet about when Shatter became aware of the new allegations nothing will change.

Callinan whilst he has acted appallingly towards the whistleblowers and was complicit in the O'Mahony whitewash was the only Commisioner in the last 30 years to stop these telephone recordings. Yet this is the reason he was effectively fired by the Taoiseach !! That circle cannot be squared I'm afraid.

GUBU doesn't even come close anymore, this crowd are far worse than anything FF have thrown at us. Labour party RIP and to the grass roots members- you let it happen for Eamonn and Pat's pension- shame on you.

aloyisious · 27-03-2014 10:25am

renegademaster wrote: »

i doubt it, sure the whole dail erupted in laughter today when he said it

I was watching it live and laughed myself. if one was into slipping something past people in public, wouldn't that have been (PR beautiful) the perfect time, reckoning on everyone meeting the statement with laughter and derision (ah come on, wilya get away out of that) getting it lost in the wash

sopretty · 27-03-2014 10:51am

aloyisious wrote: »

I was watching it live and laughed myself. if one was into slipping something past people in public, wouldn't that have been (PR beautiful) the perfect time, reckoning on everyone meeting the statement with laughter and derision (ah come on, wilya get away out of that) getting it lost in the wash

I don't think poor old Enda even got the joke

stoneill · 27-03-2014 11:53am

Although Mr. Shatter used the apologise word in his speech, hid did not sound sincere or if he meant it.
It looked like he was just making sounds that we picked up as words, reminded me of the lads that struggled to read during english in school.

sparkling sea · 27-03-2014 1:53pm

golfball37 wrote: »

Callinan whilst he has acted appallingly towards the whistleblowers and was complicit in the O'Mahony whitewash was the only Commisioner in the last 30 years to stop these telephone recordings. Yet this is the reason he was effectively fired by the Taoiseach !! That circle cannot be squared I'm afraid.

GUBU doesn't even come close anymore, this crowd are far worse than anything FF have thrown at us. Labour party RIP and to the grass roots members- you let it happen for Eamonn and Pat's pension- shame on you.

The telephone system for the Gardai was completely replaced in around 2008, this would have involved an almost forensic tendering process. I don't understand how anyone who should have known, can now claim they weren't aware, its not plausible or even possible that Justice Dept senior officals didnt know.

My name is URL · 27-03-2014 2:10pm

Interesting, if it was ok for the whistleblowers to illegally release information (as suggested by the Data Protection Commissioner) for the good they did, it must then have been ok for the gardai to use illegally obtained information to convict criminals for the good that did. The end justifies the means or does it?

Godge wrote: »

I repeat my question. Does the end justify the means......or not?

Having it both ways makes you hypocritical.

The bolded part. Do you not see the problem with that? If information was illegally obtained to secure criminal convictions, then those convictions are unsafe and invalid. It would constitute a miscarriage of justice.

How can you possibly; and with a straight face, compare that to the actions of the whistleblowers...? For a start they were not using the information to criminally convict anyone, nothing they divulged to 3rd parties would be admissible in court.

It's not hypocritical to view things for what they are, and in context.. not doing so is simply stupid, and a pretty weak attempt to cast aspersions on the whistleblowers.

norrie rugger · 27-03-2014 2:18pm

I struggle to think that Godge seriously believes what he is saying TBH

sopretty · 27-03-2014 2:19pm

norrie rugger wrote: »

I struggle to think that Godge seriously believes what he is saying TBH

More worryingly, I believe he does!

aloyisious · 27-03-2014 3:09pm

I'm waiting to hear why the AG failed to inform Enda and Alan of what was disclosed to her in Nov, and why no one within senior ranks of AGS seem to have been aware of the phone-recording practice.

There's a question there as to whether she informed the DPP of the practice, given that the DPP's office is the state agency prosecuting cases in court. If she, or Comm Callinan, (both being aware of the practice) did not inform the DPP and his office of it, should they stand accused of actually perverting the course of justice in regard to accused persons standing trial by use of improperly obtained evidence?

IMO, it devil's belief that a practice that had been in use for over three decades by members of AGS was NOT known to senior ranks of AGS, given that those persons rose from within the junior ranks and that they worked within different sections of AGS during their careers.

To think otherwise is to conclude that there was a group, or groups, within the force aware of the practice that chose to keep it secret from all other members of the AGS over those decades.

Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

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