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Vatican responds , the Holy See attempted to frustrate an inquiry is unfounded

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    #32
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

    If they were British, you tune would change pretty quickly.


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    #33
    someuser905
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 112 ✭✭someuser905


    Kenny should demand they pay the full €1.4 billion by next week, thats all these greedy pedo scumbags care about

    also take back all the schools


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    #34
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    Yes, now so they might claim! Very convenient isn't it!

    It was in the Cloyne report too.

    Kenny based his statement on the framework document, which turns out to be falsely represented in the Cloyne report.


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    #35
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    If they were British, you tune would change pretty quickly.
    lol, whose side have the catholic church always taken? :rolleyes:


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    #36
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    If you believe that, you are pretty much set in your ways so not much point in debating with you.

    Believe what?

    I want your examples of actions and inactions.

    It is in the Cloyne report about cases not being reported to the Vatican.


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    #37
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Min wrote: »
    Yeah lets have discrimination against Catholics, it is not like Ireland hasn't a history of that.

    And a better nation it was for it.


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    #38
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    niallsparky wrote: »
    And a better nation it was for it.

    Yeah the penal laws were great :rolleyes:


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    #39
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    lol, whose side have the catholic church always taken? :rolleyes:

    Not the point, this "oh woe is poor religion" attitude is pretty sickening after what we have learnt about the church. If this was a report about the British army, you would jumping up and down in condemnation.


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    #40
    Teclo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Teclo


    Our gob****e taoiseach has been caught out in a lie. The Vatican statement points out that 'he made no attempt to substantiate' what he claimed was in the Cloyne report. He did not and will not because those claims are not in the report.

    He misled and lied to the Dáil. It's all there in black and white, he can't hide from it. The fact that most of Irish society knows he lied but don't care says a lot about what type of people we are.


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    #41
    Fluffybums
    Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭Fluffybums


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

    What happened has nothing to do with religion, it is about organisations (church and state).

    What happened is abhorrent to christians, in fact any human of any or no religion, the officers of the church and state were at fault. I include the state, since for some of the awful things that happened to occur a complicit state, and some cases society, was required.

    I hope that people separate religion from church and from the officers of the church.


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    #42
    someuser905
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 112 ✭✭someuser905


    Teclo wrote: »
    Our gob****e taoiseach has been caught out in a lie. The Vatican statement points out that 'he made no attempt to substantiate' what he claimed was in the Cloyne report. He did not and will not because those claims are not in the report.

    He misled and lied to the Dáil. It's all there in black and white, he can't hide from it. The fact that most of Irish society knows he lied but don't care says a lot about what type of people we are.

    defender of the pedos :rolleyes:


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    #43
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Min wrote: »
    Yeah the penal laws were great :rolleyes:

    Perhaps the Protestants were simply unhappy at the Catholics knowingly turning bread and wine into Jesus' blood and body and choosing to eat and drink it anyway. Cannibalism isn't socially acceptable. I'd be unhappy if someone decided to eat some God/role model of mine.


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    #44
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Teclo wrote: »
    Our gob****e taoiseach has been caught out in a lie. The Vatican statement points out that 'he made no attempt to substantiate' what he claimed was in the Cloyne report. He did not and will not because those claims are not in the report.

    He misled and lied to the Dáil. It's all there in black and white, he can't hide from it. The fact that most of Irish society knows he lied but don't care says a lot about what type of people we are.


    I prefer the term
    Rapist Sympathiser!


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    #45
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Min wrote: »
    Believe what?

    I want your examples of actions and inactions.

    It is in the Cloyne report about cases not being reported to the Vatican.

    As we see in their response, the defence of the Vatican is based purely on semantics. So even in the case that the Bishop was speaking to the Pope and told him, the vatican could simply deny it all saying no "written reports" were submitted or something similar. It is a truthful response but only because they ignore anything that does not back up their case.


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    #46
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

    One don't have to look far to understand why we are 'having a go' at Rome and its org!

    * http://gawker.com/5825254/the-catholic-churchs-secret-gay-cabal

    * http://www.irishcentral.com/news/GAA-not-informed-about-abuse-accusations-against-priest-in-management-127294163.html

    * http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/popes-banker-faces-inquiry-over-money-laundering-2347804.html

    * http://www.thejournal.ie/philadelphia-monsignor-to-stand-trial-alongside-priests-accused-of-rape-189776-Jul2011/

    * http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/new-book-claims-to-lift-lid-on-sex-secrets-of-the-vatican-2625944.html

    * http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/world/europe/16vatican.html?_r=1&hp

    * http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0620/vatican.html

    * http://pleated-jeans.com/2010/05/20/15-awful-examples-of-christian-propagand/

    * http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/article1974335.ece

    * http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8627878.stm

    * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8660249/Australias-Roman-Catholic-Church-apologises-for-forced-adoptions.html

    * http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/24/priests-abuse-catholic-legal-plea

    * http://www.sbpost.ie/breakingnews/ireland/eyidojeycwkf/

    * http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

    * http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=robbed

    And there are MANY more!

    So far these schites have got off light.
    If they were not so dug into Irish society like a bad virus, they would be banned a hell of a long time ago.


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    #47
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Min wrote: »
    The problem is the report was not accurate in it's assessment of the framework document, which Enda Kenny used to attack the Vatican.
    .

    ......according to the Vatican.
    Min wrote: »
    The Holy See has responded and said this is not the case, the bishops never looked for official recognition for the document so it was not an official document of the church. This contradicts the Cloyne report.
    The Holy See explains how a document is made official and that the bishops never looked to have it official..

    The Holy See are automatically correct, are they? Thats odd, considering.
    Min wrote: »
    Enda Kenny's speech was poor, based on falsehoods, Cloyne was not even following church law let alone state law, then Kenny blames the Vatican, you see how ridiculous all this is...

    According to the Vatican, a far from neutral party in the matter.

    Given the high handed arrogance they've dealt with inquiries from the Irish government before, I see nothing ridiculous about it.
    Min wrote: »
    It is like a member of your family does wrong, but you blame the wrong person who was not involved as they didn't even know the wrong was being committed....

    If priests in the area supervised by the Bishop of cloyne had been saying from the pulpit that gay marriage and contraception were acceptable, we would have seen a church knowing who was involved, who influenced, what was said, when and where within a space of time that would have put any police force to shame.
    Min wrote: »
    It is a good thing as there is yet another report as 96% of similar abuse cases happen outside the church where there are no reports.

    .....because, by and large, you don't have worldwide institutions covering up the abuse of children since the foundation of the state and doubtless long before.

    The newly released Chapter 19 of the Murphy Report on convicted paedophile priest Tony Walsh describes him as probably the most notorious sex abuser to come to the Commission's attention.

    The Murphy Report outlines how Walsh abused children in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s even though priests, canons, monsignors, bishops and the Archbishop in Dublin knew about it.

    The first complaint against him was made two days after he was appointed a parish priest in Ballyfermot in 1978 but nothing was done.
    It also describes as astonishing a letter from the Archbishop thanking him for his 'dedicated work' in Ballyfermot.
    (my bold)
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1217/abuse_murphy.html

    ...and thats just one of them.


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    #48
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    Does it really matter if the document was a study document or an official document? Talk about splitting hairs!

    The fact is that it was drawn up by members of the clergy, and just because it wasn't "official" doesn't mean people didn't base their actions on it.

    And any organisation as old and powerful as the church must have known about such large-scale abuse and covering-up.

    And what does it really matter if the Vatican knew about it (though they must have) or just some archbishops?

    The abuse is the important thing, and I hope my feeling that some people care more about defending the church than what happened to their victims is wrong.


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    #49
    teol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭teol


    Min wrote: »

    They say the bishops never looked for the document to be made official by the Vatican.

    The reply from the Holy See looks reasoned.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne_vatican.pdf

    Bishop Magee was the private secetary to 3 popes. He knew what the **** he was doing.
    The Commission of Investigation report also said Rome's decision to brand a document on child sexual abuse as unofficial allowed individual bishops "the freedom to ignore" strict guidelines on protecting children.

    The authors of the report said the Vatican's actions "can only be described as unsupportive in relation to the civil authorities" – the Garda Síochána and child protection agencies. The 431-page report, launched by the ministers for justice and children, examined allegations made against 19 priests in the diocese between 1996 and 2000.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/13/irish-report-child-sex-abuse-vatican


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    #50
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    Not the point, this "oh woe is poor religion" attitude is pretty sickening after what we have learnt about the church. If this was a report about the British army, you would jumping up and down in condemnation.

    The poster is wasting their time trying to have a debate, especially with comments like "pedo sympathizer" being bandied about. Thats the point I was making. Even without the pedo thing the poster would still be wasting their time trying to defend (or in this case highlight facts) the church, as the forum is riddled with those who despise religion anyway.

    I'm not a huge fan of the catholic church for many reasons, the scandals, their routine condemnation of IRA volunteers, reading names from pulpits etc rtc


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    #51
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    They just seem to be digging themselves into a deeper hole with every statement they make these days.

    Their ignorance and almost complete disregard for the anger felt in this country about what has happened is just astounding.


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    #52
    Teclo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Teclo


    someuser905 wrote: »
    defender of the pedos :rolleyes:

    Not being able to do better than that just shows your ignorance.


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    #53
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Fluffybums wrote: »
    What happened has nothing to do with religion, it is about organisations (church and state).

    What happened is abhorrent to christians, in fact any human of any or no religion, the officers of the church and state were at fault. I include the state, since for some of the awful things that happened to occur a complicit state, and some cases society, was required.

    I hope that people separate religion from church and from the officers of the church.

    Note how little condemnation the state gets, rather interesting isn't it?


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    #54
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    The poster is wasting their time trying to have a debate, especially with comments like "pedo sympathizer" being bandied about. Thats the point I was making. Even without the pedo thing the poster would still be wasting their time trying to defend (or in this case highlight facts) the church, as the forum is riddled with those who despise religion anyway.

    I'm not a huge fan of the catholic church for many reasons, the scandals, their routine condemnation of IRA volunteers, reading names from pulpits etc rtc

    I respect a lot of your views, even though I disagree with most of them. I would not be anti-religion at all, but this is a whole different level. This is pure disgusting behaviour by the Vatican and deserves every type of condemnation. They got away with so much in Ireland for so long and we put up with it, now they don't get away with it.


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    #55
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Lest we forget - or some want other to forget...
    CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales has uncovered a church document kept secret for 40 years.

    The confidential Vatican document, obtained by CBS News, lays out a church policy that calls for absolute secrecy when it comes to sexual abuse by priests - anyone who speaks out could be thrown out of the church.

    The policy was written in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani.

    The document, once "stored in the secret archives" of the Vatican, focuses on crimes initiated as part of the confessional relationship and what it calls the "worst crime": sexual assault committed by a priest" or "attempted by him with youths of either sex or with brute animals."

    Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases "in the most secretive way...restrained by a perpetual silence...and everyone {including the alleged victim) ...is to observe the strictest secret, which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office...under the penalty of excommunication."

    Larry Drivon, a lawyer who represents alleged victims, said, "This document is significant because it's a blueprint for deception."

    Drivon said this proves what he has alleged on behalf of victims in priest-abuse lawsuits: that the church engaged in a crime – racketeering.

    "It's an instruction manual on how to deceive and how to protect pedophiles," Drivon said. "And exactly how to avoid the truth coming out."

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

    .And this was 40 years ago that this ruling was made - and thus continued to the days of Cloyne!


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    #56
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

    Are you seriously saying there would be the same uproar by the irish people against the church if they never molested one child? You're seriously deluded if you think that.


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    #57
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    Are you seriously saying there would be the same uproar by the irish people against the church if they never molested one child? You're seriously deluded if you think that.
    I'm saying that the poster is wasting their time... They wont be listened to no matter how valid their points and will simply be slagged off and insulted, thats what I'm saying.


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    #58
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Teclo wrote: »
    someuser905 wrote: »
    defender of the pedos :rolleyes:

    Not being able to do better than that just shows your ignorance.

    Either you are with the abused kids in this matter or you are not

    If you are not then you are a defender of the abusers

    There is no grey area in this matter!!!

    Anyone who speaks out FOR the church in this matter is obviously showing sympathy for an organisation of rapists

    Any bullsh1t yap about official and unofficial documents etc should be seen for what it is
    A smokescreen - and these guys know how to do it better than anyone

    Remember - no grey area in this matter!


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    #59
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,656 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    What a surprise.
    The fact they took so long to reply Kenny's speech was evidence enough they were going to engage in semantics to try and cover themselves. No doubt the Vatican lawyers were burning the midnight oil pouring over the speech to pick holes in it.


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    #60
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Note how little condemnation the state gets, rather interesting isn't it?
    The state does not put itself beyond reproach and is directly answerable to the people and is of the people not above it.


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    #61
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Note how little condemnation the state gets, rather interesting isn't it?

    The state has at least admitted it's fault in what happened and has made it's required contribution to the compensation funds. The religious orders and church however haven't done so.


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