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Vatican responds , the Holy See attempted to frustrate an inquiry is unfounded

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  • 03-09-2011 12:44pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭


    FFS

    Enda kenny what are you going to do now with these delusional cnuts.


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne.html#article


    The statement from the Vatican says "it has significant reservations that the speech made by Enda Kenny TD in the Dáil on the 20th of July, in particular, the accusation that the Holy See attempted to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign democratic republic, is unfounded."


    The statement added that the Holy See wishes to make it quite clear that it in no way hampered or sought to interfere in any inquiry into cases of child sexual abuse in the Diocese of Cloyne.


    Furthermore, the Vatican says that at no stage did the Holy See seek to interfere with Irish Civil law or impeded the civil authority in the exercise of its duties.


    The Holy See observes that there is no evidence cited anywhere in the Cloyne Report, to support the claim that its (i.e. the Vatican's) supposed intervention contributed to the undermining of the child protection framework and guidelines of the Irish State.

    The Vatican also responded to claims in the Cloyne Report that it referred to a Framework Document, drawn up by Irish Bishops, on how to deal with allegations of child sexual abuse as "not an official document..but merely a study document."


    It says that taken out of context the comments in the letter from Archbishop Storero to Irish Bishops "could be open to misinterpretation, giving rise to understandable criticism."


    It says this description was "not a dismissal of the serious efforts undertaken by Irish Bishops to address the grave problem of child sexual abuse."


    Rather the congregation "wished to ensure that nothing contained in the Framework Document would give rise to difficulties should appeals be lodged to the Holy See."


    The Vatican also refutes the claim that Irish Bishops sought recognition from Rome for the Framework Document but it was not forthcoming.
    It says Irish Bishops did not, under Canon Law, seek 'recongnito' for the Framework Document, therefore the Holy See cannot be criticised for failing to grant what was never requested in the first place.


    However, according to the Vatican, this would not have prevented applying the Framework Document in individual Dioceses.
    Speaking on Vatican Radio today, Fr Federico Lombardi said: "The document is clearly structured and seeks to give detailed and documented answers to all the questions raised, inserting them into a broader perspective".



    "The text of the document shows how the Holy See has given very serious and respectful consideration to the queries and criticism it has received, and has undertaken to answer them serenely and exhaustively, avoiding polemics even when giving clear answers to the accusations made".
    He continued that the Holy See hopes that its response "will achieve the fundamental shared goal of contributing to rebuilding a climate of trust and co-operation with the Irish authorities, which is essential for an effective commitment on the part of the Church and society to guarantee the primary goal: protecting children and young people".


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    Is there any grounds for taking legal action against them for obstructing the course of justice?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Nice selective bolding


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Sue them for a few billion for their actions in this Republic


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭Ronin247


    Same old same old." how dare you suggest we didnt try to protect the children, we pretended that the priests werent buggering altar boys to protect the childrens feeling"

    Enda finally said what everyone felt and they try to say he is wrong due to grammatical errors:eek:

    They should be thrown out of the country untill they agree to obey OUR laws and not vice versa.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    They have used very selective wording in this response and it is ultimately disgusting how they shrink away from responsibility with semantics. Instead of looking at what this organisation has actually done, it instead focuses on ripping apart the report and responses of Government by criticising the language, for example "not an official document..but merely a study document." So in other words, we did it in a way that has enough wriggle room so if we get in trouble, we can use this wording as a way to avoid responsibility. They are a mafia.

    Absolute bastards, f**k them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    Well there's a surprise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

    The Holy See, says the government made claims without evidence, as the Cloyne report never stated the statement of the then papal nuncio on the framework document (as not being an official document) was used as an excuse to not deal with the abuse cases properly.

    They say the bishops never looked for the document to be made official by the Vatican.

    The reply from the Holy See looks reasoned.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne_vatican.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,580 ✭✭✭uberwolf


    Fúck them. Mercifully they're descending ever further into irrelevance anyway.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 2,283 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chorcai


    Is there any grounds for taking legal action against them for obstructing the course of justice?

    This is Ireland


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Min wrote: »
    Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

    ..............

    Aye, I mean as an Irishman and father, he was hardly fucking sick of reading yet another report of child molesters being covered for by the catholic church.....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,120 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Nice selective bolding

    Isn't that the whole point of bolding/highlighting?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭teol


    Min wrote: »
    Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

    So it had nothing to do with abused children...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Min wrote: »
    Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

    The Holy See, says the government made claims without evidence, as the Cloyne report never stated the statement of the then papal nuncio on the framework document (as not being an official document) was used as an excuse to not deal with the abuse cases properly.

    They say the bishops never looked for the document to be made official by the Vatican.

    The reply from the Holy See looks reasoned.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne_vatican.pdf

    :mad: what an awful response. Do you feel good defending people who protect pedophiles?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    That anyone could possibly defend them after everything is beyond me and a bit of an insight into the type of person that continues to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭MetalDog


    F*ck the Vatican. They're just sorry they got caught.

    And of course they attampted a cover up, nobody does cover-ups like the Unholy See. :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    The weaselling out they're trying to do, and the fact some people are defending them, is bizarre and disgusting.

    Even if they were right and weren't complicit in covering things up in this specific manner, the fact is it was members of their organisation abusing kids and covering it up, and they're responsible for this, and for taking action against them.

    If there were any decent human beings involved in the upper echelons of the church they'd be too concerned with the abuses committed against children and providing compensation and punishing those responsible to be trying to wriggle out of responsibility the way they are.

    Clearly once you get past the grassroots of the church you're dealing with people who are more politician than priest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Isn't that the whole point of bolding/highlighting?
    quiet you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Nodin wrote: »
    Aye, I mean as an Irishman and father, he was hardly fucking sick of reading yet another report of child molesters being covered for by the catholic church.....

    The problem is the report was not accurate in it's assessment of the framework document, which Enda Kenny used to attack the Vatican.

    The cloyne report says the bishops looked for official recognition from the Vatican for it.

    The Holy See has responded and said this is not the case, the bishops never looked for official recognition for the document so it was not an official document of the church. This contradicts the Cloyne report.
    The Holy See explains how a document is made official and that the bishops never looked to have it official.

    The Holy See says Cloyne didn't even apply canon law to some of the cases which would would have got the priests removed from their ministry, so they didn't follow the guidelines by the Irish bishops which would have civil law involved, they didn't even follow their own canon law and it was only after 2005 that Cloyne followed Canon law and send the cases to the Vatican for canon law to be applied.
    Cloyne under church guidelines should have told both the state authorities and the Vatican of the cases, before 2005, it did neither.

    Enda Kenny's speech was poor, based on falsehoods, Cloyne was not even following church law let alone state law, then Kenny blames the Vatican, you see how ridiculous all this is.
    It is like a member of your family does wrong, but you blame the wrong person who was not involved as they didn't even know the wrong was being committed.

    The frame work document was not official but it was given to each bishop as guidelines on how cases should be handled - Holy See
    The Cloyne report said it was an understanding that each diocese would implement it.
    The Cloyne report also said it was best practice and was superior to the State's own child protection policy.


    It is a good thing as there is yet another report as 96% of similar abuse cases happen outside the church where there are no reports.


  • Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭Fluffybums


    Ronin247 wrote: »
    Same old same old." how dare you suggest we didnt try to protect the children, we pretended that the priests werent buggering altar boys to protect the childrens feeling"

    Enda finally said what everyone felt and they try to say he is wrong due to grammatical errors:eek:

    They should be thrown out of the country untill they agree to obey OUR laws and not vice versa.

    Yet still 90% of the schools are under the control of the a organisation which has consistently shown that child welfare comes a distant second to the organisation. :(


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    The Vatican knew EXACTLY what was going on (around the world inc’ Ireland) and they knew they should be reporting such crimes to the proper law authorities.

    Either they knew that – or they are one of the thickest, most stupidest organisations in the world – and they did not get their power and influence that they have, by being stupid or thick – so I see them as knowing, non-reporting, looking the other way at times, moving their inner perverts around the state/around the world (in quiet cover-ups) and denying the state access to records, etc of those actually abused that they know of!

    Any sad person that tries to say the church is not to blame or tries to pass off Romes miserable excuses as good PR, frankly is living in the land of denial and has their head up their backside!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    :mad: what an awful response. Do you feel good defending people who protect pedophiles?


    They are not defending paedophiles.

    Read their response, tell me where they are defending paedophiles?

    Oh let me guess you have not read the response...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    The Vatican knew EXACTLY what was going on (around the world inc’ Ireland) and they knew they should be reporting such crimes to the proper law authorities.

    Either they knew that – or they are one of the thickest, most stupidest organisations in the world – and they did not get their power and influence that they have, by being stupid or thick – so I see them as knowing, non-reporting, looking the other way at times, moving their inner perverts around the state/around the world (in quiet cover-ups) and denying the state access to records, etc of those actually abused that they know of!

    Any sad person that tries to say the church is not to blame or tries to pass off Romes miserable excuses as good PR, frankly is living in the land of denial and has their head up their backside!

    How would they know when Cloyne were not reporting cases to the Vatican before 2005?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Let's hammer them now
    Who do they think they are?
    Bloody rapist sympathisers!!!

    Lets hit them where it hurts
    Schools + confession boxes + any influence on our constitution and laws

    Let's banish them to the back of the fairground behind the fortune teller and the 3 card trickster


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Min wrote: »
    They are not defending paedophiles.

    Read their response, tell me where they are defending paedophiles?

    Oh let me guess you have not read the response...

    I have read the report actually. They are defending paedophiles by their ACTIONS or inaction to be more precise, then by avoiding responsibility by using semantics. They do what mafias and organised crime gangs do, nods and winks, not guidelines but more of a study, blah blah blah, don't commit anything serious to paper and then deny it all later. They have used every trick gangsters use to avoid responsibility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Let's hammer them now
    Who do they think they are?
    Bloody rapist sympathisers!!!

    Lets hit them where it hurts
    Schools + confession boxes + any influence on our constitution and laws

    Let's banish them to the back of the fairground behind the fortune teller and the 3 card tric

    Yeah lets have discrimination against Catholics, it is not like Ireland hasn't a history of that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Min wrote: »
    How would they know when Cloyne were not reporting cases to the Vatican before 2005?

    Yes, now so they might claim! Very convenient isn't it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    I have read the report actually. They are defending paedophiles by their ACTIONS or inaction to be more precise, then by avoiding responsibility by using semantics. They do what mafias and organised crime gangs do, nods and winks, not guidelines but more of a study, blah blah blah, don't commit anything serious to paper and then deny it all later. They have used every trick gangsters use to avoid responsibility.

    What actions?

    They were not told of the abuse before 2005, so is that inaction?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Min wrote: »
    They are not defending paedophiles.

    Read their response, tell me where they are defending paedophiles?

    Oh let me guess you have not read the response...
    You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Min wrote: »
    Let's hammer them now
    Who do they think they are?
    Bloody rapist sympathisers!!!

    Lets hit them where it hurts
    Schools + confession boxes + any influence on our constitution and laws

    Let's banish them to the back of the fairground behind the fortune teller and the 3 card tric

    Yeah lets have discrimination against Catholics, it is not like Ireland hasn't a history of that.

    Rapist sympathiser!
    Hope you're proud to be batting for the rapists against the children
    Congrats!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Min wrote: »
    What actions?

    They were not told of the abuse before 2005, so is that inaction?

    If you believe that, you are pretty much set in your ways so not much point in debating with you.


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