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The Perfect Program

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    #32
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Scuba Ste wrote: »
    I wouldn't have thought foam rolling pre workout is a good idea, I'd see it as similar to static stretching and relaxing your muscles pre workout which I always thought was bad for performance. I'l happily admit I don't know a lot about foam rolling but mylself I leave it to post workout or just at home whenever the mood takes.

    Does it relax your muscles tho?

    I'd have thought reducing any adhesions and knots prior to training would be good? I certainly feel more comfortable and better for it when I do it before training.

    I won't even try to get sciencey cos I don't know for sure, but doesn't static stretching effectively reduce the amount of force/resistance that your muscle can output, what mechanism does foam rolling achieve a similar effect by?

    I really need to start googling mid-post so I can sound like I know what I'm talking about.


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    #33
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    The static stretching thing before training has been overblown, it may cause a very small drop in maximal performance but it doesn't last long and if your muscles are effectively 'sleepy' after stretching (or however you want to describe it) they should be back to normal after a couple of warm up sets.


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    #34
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Hanley wrote: »
    Does it relax your muscles tho?

    I'd have thought reducing any adhesions and knots prior to training would be good? I certainly feel more comfortable and better for it when I do it before training.

    My thoughts exactly. I noticed a huge difference when I foam roll before squatting.

    From wikipedia:

    "Myofascial release is a form of soft tissue therapy used to treat somatic dysfunction and accompanying pain and restriction of motion. This is accomplished by relaxing contracted muscles, increasing circulation, increasing venous and lymphatic drainage, and stimulating the stretch reflex of muscles and overlying fascia."
    Hanley wrote: »
    I won't even try to get sciencey cos I don't know for sure, but doesn't static stretching effectively reduce the amount of force/resistance that your muscle can output, what mechanism does foam rolling achieve a similar effect by?

    I really need to start googling mid-post so I can sound like I know what I'm talking about.

    I think the drop in performance has been proven to be fairly negligable, if that's how you spell it.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #35
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    brianthebard wrote: »
    The static stretching thing before training has been overblown, it may cause a very small drop in maximal performance but it doesn't last long and if your muscles are effectively 'sleepy' after stretching (or however you want to describe it) they should be back to normal after a couple of warm up sets.

    Someone throw out some links and info about all this plz!


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    #36
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Hanley wrote: »
    Someone throw out some links and info about all this plz!

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/122341.php

    Even though they say you shouldn't stretch it states in the article that power output only decreased 2.4-3.4% It might make a difference if you did it right before your third squat max attempt but otherwise it seems excessive to stay away from stretching if you like it and it seems to work for you.


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    #37
    dinorebel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    For me the amount of information available is staggering it is working out what works for me that is the tough bit.With that in mind I have decided to go for a well known/researched program(starting strength)and stick with it.


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    #38
    Money Shot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Money Shot


    the drifter wrote: »
    this...

    its prob a good maintenance program for cutting...or maybe if you were getting some form of unnatural assistance...but thats a whole other discussion..

    .

    I can't see how 5-3-1 would be a good program for a powerlifter, but I wouldn't write it off completely. I think it might be a useful template (if not maybe the perfect program) for a gym goer with limited time, who's not worried about 1rm's, and is just looking to maintain or build some muscle and get stronger.


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    #39
    Will Heffernan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭Will Heffernan


    Money Shot wrote: »
    I can't see how 5-3-1 would be a good program for a powerlifter, but I wouldn't write it off completely. I think it might be a useful template (if not maybe the perfect program) for a gym goer with limited time, who's not worried about 1rm's, and is just looking to maintain or build some muscle and get stronger.
    One of the problems with 5/3/1 is that it attempts to be all things to all people...and no program can do that.

    For beginners it probably asks to much of them with regard generating intensity and for more advanced lifters it asks too little...as in it doesn't expose them to enough intensity...they don't get enough 'near max' volume to make strength gains.

    Some of the principle of 5/3/1 would definitely be suited to the fattie looking to hold there mass while ditching their body fat.

    Heaps of good stuff here in this thread...I'm going to try to pull some of it together later.


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    #40
    podge57
    Registered Users Posts: 1,640 ✭✭✭podge57


    This is geared mostly toward people looking to get bigger and stronger, but since I think you can look good, be fit and get bigger and stronger all at once, this sort of applies to all the categories. I don't see much need for Oly lifts, because if you haven't got a coach, you will spend too much time trying to learn the lifts, and I don't think the benefits would be that significant.

    Like others have said, there is no perfect program, and almost everything will work if you give it enough time, but heres my thoughts anyway...

    Warm up: just do whatever you need to get warmed up properly for the session you are doing. For me, this usually means working on my hips, hamstrings, lower back and shoulders. I do some of the exercises from this vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK6kghPlyTI&feature=player_embedded), and some band pull-aparts, face pulls etc. Some days it takes 5 mins to warm up, 15-20 on others. I don't see much need for prehab stuff during warmups, although this could just be because I'm young and I've never had any significant injuries or problems.

    Exercises: Squat / Deadlift / Bench / Pullups are the basics, and normally one heavy-ish assistance exercise like CGBP, Rows, Lunges, and then 1-2 light assistance exercises.

    Frequency: I think that to get bigger and stronger, you should ideally be squatting 3x per week, Benching 2x, Deadlifting 1x, and doing pullups 3-4 times per week, as well as the assistance stuff.

    Sets and Reps: For the big 3, 2-5 sets of 3-8 reps. When squatting 3x per week, vary the intensity and volume across the week. For assistance work, 6-10 reps for the main assistance lift, and 10-20 for others.

    Cardio: Twigs and fatties should both stay active, but obviously you shouldn't do too much if you want to get bigger/stronger. If the main goal is to get bigger and stronger, any cardio work should be done on lifting days, after lifting, so it won't interfere too much with your lifting.


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    #41
    G86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,660 ✭✭✭G86


    I've my days divided up pretty similar to a few posters, but I'm doing Coan Phillipi now on the deadlift day so I've moved my press over to my squat/bench day.

    So I have 2 strength days with those main lifts, some super sets, and then 2 cardio days - usually some kind of metcon.

    e.g
    Day 1 - Coan Phillipi

    Day 2:
    Squat 5x5
    Bench 5x5
    OH Press 5x5 supersetted with OH Weighted Lunges 10x5
    One Arm Rows supersetted with Tri Dips 10repsx5
    Knees to Elbows 5x5 with Weighted Crunches 10x5
    Finish up then with something like Box Hops and KB Swings for 21,18,15,12,9,6,3

    Thinking about starting Smolov Base twice a week over 6 weeks for my squat today though - I've hit a bit of sticking point with it. Not sure if I could just slot it in where my 5x5 is on Day 2? Or would it need a day to itself? Any advice greatly appreciated :)


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    #42
    banshee_bones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,160 ✭✭✭✭banshee_bones


    Will Heffernan wrote: »
    I am going to come back and edit this...as it develops.

    Firstly, what are the majority of people looking for?

    You have fatties looking to get stronger and or bigger.
    You have fatties looking to get fit.
    You have fatties looking to just look good nekid.
    You have twigs looking to get stronger and or bigger.
    You have twigs looking to get fit.
    You have twigs looking to just look good nekid.

    Does that cover it?

    Lets build some training templates and rules for all of these? If nothing else it will give us something cool to argue about for hours on end.

    What do we need to do to warm up?
    What exercises?
    Set and rep schemes?
    Training frequency?
    Do we need Oly lifting?
    What does it take to build the perfect program?

    Great idea for a thread, just want to clarify though, who are these templates being constructed for? athletes and serious gym goers? or regular guys and girls going to the gym three maybe five days a week? or will there be seperate templates for each?
    Lothaar v2 wrote: »
    From what I can gather as a long-time lurker here, workouts should take about 45 minutes. Anything over an hour is too much.
    But then I see some of the workouts in the fitness logs, and they seem to go on forever! So, it's confusing.

    I'm all for the 20-minute cure. I don't think it's going to happen, though.

    Same here, theres a wealth of information on here but with regard to that yeah some of those workouts do seem quite lengthly!


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    #43
    Hail 2 Da Chimp
    Registered Users Posts: 7,589 ✭✭✭Hail 2 Da Chimp


    Will Heffernan wrote: »
    You have twigs looking to get stronger.

    This probably describes me best - but from my point of view, my priorities lie with MMA, and for the time being, I won't be able to spare more than 1 day a week in the gym, probably 3/4 times a week training in MMA as well though.

    I know the basics of what I should be doing in order to concentrate on getting stronger, but how do I maximize the results I get if I can only spare 1 day a week hitting the weights.

    Again it's another 20min fix job - but I'll be putting the work in elsewhere and a program that requires 3 heavy weights sessions doesn't suit.


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    #44
    El Horseboxo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭El Horseboxo


    I've stuck with the following for a long time now. Got it off muscletalk forum. Have made slight variations for periods such as dropping the deadlifts for a few weeks and changed from barbell bench to dumbbell and barbell press to dumbbell press. Or changed dips to pull ups. I made huge gains in strength and size over the past 2 years. Of course that was aided by nailing my diet.

    All 5x5

    Day 1

    Deadlift
    Pendlay row
    Close grip bench

    Day 2

    Bench
    Weighted dips
    Barbell curls

    Day 3

    Press
    Squats
    Sldl's

    Carido 3 days a week for around 30 minutes and i'd ab work on one of them. It's a fairly basic compound heavy workout that i usually finish in about 50 minutes including warm up. Getting a bit bored with it now so may change it soon.


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    #45
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,083 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Feel free to rip this apart, actually please do.
    There are easily errors in the way i've grouped them

    D1:Chest/Back
    Bench press
    Pull/Chin ups
    Incline/Decline bench
    Inverted rows
    Chest flys
    Bent over rows
    Chest dips
    Lat pull down

    D2: Legs n Shoulders
    Squat
    Press
    Deadlift
    Upright row
    Seated DB press
    Lunges
    Fr/Lat Raises

    D3:Cardio/conditioning
    Variations of:
    running, rowing, cycling, both steady state and HIIT
    Metcons: skip, KB swings, wallballs
    Complex: squat/press/BOR/RDL


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    #46
    Renn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭Renn


    Hanley wrote: »
    Because pretty much everyone who's logged their experience here has gotten weaker on it.

    Rep PR's go up, maximal strength goes down.

    Came across this post after reading rocky's 'Perfect Program'.

    Fwiw, I've been using the 5/3/1 template for the past year and have had great success with it. My rep PR's have gone up and my 1RM's have gone up - and of course I'm happy with that. Of course it's not the be-all and end-all of programs out there but I basically picked it because of the simplicity of it and for someone who wants to be out of the gym in 30mins/45mins/whatever, it's pretty ideal.

    But I'll have a read through some logs tomorrow and try and see where you're coming from.


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    #47
    Remmy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Remmy


    perhaps Im off the mark here with the intention of this thread but I'd like to here the wisdom behind how one would fit in conditioning work into a 3/week program,specifically for someone who needs to move up in weight but still needs to improve anerobic performance for sports.How would one best do this without messing up too much with recovery for the lifting days and biting into muscle gain.Sounds like a mouthfull eh?:rolleyes:


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    #48
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Renn wrote: »
    Came across this post after reading rocky's 'Perfect Program'.

    Fwiw, I've been using the 5/3/1 template for the past year and have had great success with it. My rep PR's have gone up and my 1RM's have gone up - and of course I'm happy with that. Of course it's not the be-all and end-all of programs out there but I basically picked it because of the simplicity of it and for someone who wants to be out of the gym in 30mins/45mins/whatever, it's pretty ideal.

    But I'll have a read through some logs tomorrow and try and see where you're coming from.

    What sort of numbers are you putting up, out of interest? And how long are you training?


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    #49
    Renn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭Renn


    Numbers? Weigh 80kg, DL 190, SQ 130, BP 90, MP 60.

    Might not seem much to some out there but I'm happy. My deadlift used to be around the 150 mark a year ago so there's definitely been an improvement there. Maybe I've always been able to do 190 and this program just happened to focus me to lift that sort of weight if you get what I mean?

    Not training long, only joined a gym last year, only squatting a year etc...so it's probably hard to gauge how well the program works. But like I said, it's simplicity suits me down to the ground.


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    #50
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Scuba Ste wrote: »
    Perfect program for me goes along these lines.

    2 day split as follows, basically legs/push/pull.

    Day 1
    Squat
    Bench press
    Barbell row
    Curls
    Ab work

    Day 2
    Deadlift
    OH Press
    Pull up
    Tri extensions
    Oblique work

    scarily similar to my own at the mo
    except I do dips and weighted bench dips
    and some other stuff


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    #51
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,083 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Mellor wrote: »
    Feel free to rip this apart, actually please do.
    There are easily errors in the way i've grouped them

    D1:Chest/Back
    Bench press
    Pull/Chin ups
    Incline/Decline bench
    Bent over rows
    Chest dips
    Inverted rows
    Maybe a few curls

    D2: Legs n Shoulders
    Squat
    Press
    Deadlift
    Maybe some squat variation, front, thruster, overhead (rarely) etc
    Upright row
    Seated DB press


    D3:Cardio/conditioning
    Variations of:
    running, rowing, cycling, both steady state and HIIT
    Metcons: skip, KB swings, wallballs
    Complex: squat/press/BOR/RDL

    As comments as adjusted?


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    #52
    chadmustang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭chadmustang


    Just trying to get stronger at the moment while the weather is awful and there's nothing else to think about. I've been doing this for the past 3 weeks and I like the way it's going.

    I do a load of hip and shoulder stretching (no foam roller available I'm afraid)

    Day One:
    ME kinda Squat and Deadlift
    45 degree back raises
    Planks or Leg raises
    basic 5/3/1-esque approach

    Day Two:
    5x5 Front Squats
    Upper Body:
    Then usually 2 Pushes and 2 Pulls (one horizontal one vertical)

    Day Three: School Time
    Training with an old time weightlifter
    Basically tons of reps on Cleans, Power Cleans, Jerks from the rack and trying to get my shoulders flexible enough to Overhead Squat.

    And if I make it up more days, I do more Front Squats/Chins/Dips/Overhead Pressing/Gunz.


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    #53
    ilovelamp2000
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ilovelamp2000


    Hanley wrote: »
    WARM UP/MOBILITY

    The warm up should focus on hip and shoulder mobility and be dynamic in nature as they seem to be the areas most people have trouble with. I'd do some form of upper and lower body foam rolling prior to this. So say that's 10 minutes of work...

    Roll - IT Band, quads, calves, lats, upper back, work thoracic extension on the roller
    Mobility - over and under hurdle drills, front to back and side to side, maybe some glute activation stuff too
    .

    Are there any online video guides to these things ?

    I've become ridiculously prone to injury and I'm certain it's because of the minimal warm up I'm being advised to do.


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    #54
    kev.f
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭kev.f


    This tread is a good idea. I am sorry but I am new to this. (first post)

    Where to start? I will lay done my training week and then explain


    Monday – yet to be decided

    Tuesday – taekwondo.

    Wednesday – yet to be decided

    Thursday - taekwondo

    Friday – yet to be decided

    Saturday + Sunday - rest

    Who likes it? J

    I think the fact you are looking for the perfect program is a mistake. If you continuously do the same workout your body will get used to it and you will not see improvements. You need to continuously shock your body. For example one day you could go for a long swim, the next you could lift weights (I don’t agree with weight training but that is another discussion), the next you could do tennis or do body weight training or football or go for a hike or go to the gym. The possibilities are endless.

    See the way I put the gym last. The fact is (for me at least) that if you go to the gym you will do the same thing over and over again. You will lift weights like this and run like this and row like this. I used to do it aswell but found that when I stopped going to the gym and took up alternative forms of exercise I saw massive improvements.

    I see a lot of people are looking for a 20 min cure. Why is that? People get board of the gym. Its that simple. If you and I know I keep coming back to this, keep changing what you are doing then it is easer to stay motivated and you won’t feel the hours roll by.

    So what exactly am I suggesting? I will lay down some of the stuff that does pop up in my ‘yet to be decided’ days.

    HIIT – high intensity interval training – can be applied to most forms of exercise. I find it brilliant. It significant increases in VO2 max and you’reMetabolism. You will benefit from the after-burn. This means you burn up to 9 times more fat even when you are not moving as well as many other benefits. As well as that if for example you do a lot of running you could go for a long slow run one day do a HIIT run the next.

    Explains exactly what HIIT is - http://www.naturalphysiques.com/faq/525.html
    Ten reasons to take up HIIT - http://hiitprofessor.com/blog/why-hiit-interval-training/top-ten-reasons/

    Deck of cards workout – get a deck of card. Set each suit a exercise (push ups, ups sit ups, squats. Anything you want) whatever value is on the card you do. You can leave the jokers in if you want and set them a value of 50. enjoy J. I do this about 2-3 times a week and is different every time.

    For those that like to bench there own weight in the gym (really hate that) try this. Get into a handstand position and do push ups (you can use the wall to help). You are lifting the same weight but this way you have far greater control over your body.

    I would recommend that everyone starts a marshal art. I believe that there is a marshal art for everyone. they are great fun, you learn to defend yourself properly and if you keep it on you will go to competitions and bring home medals J

    I have properly rattled on long enough and I know I will properly come under heavy fire from the gym enthusiast but I hope this will help get to your ‘perfect program’. any comments are welcomed.


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    #55
    dantes87
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭dantes87


    WOW..


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    #56
    Remmy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Remmy


    I stopped reading after ..(I don’t agree with weight training but that is another discussion)..Do we find out what happens at the end of Lost?


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    #57
    danlen
    Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭danlen


    kev.f wrote: »
    I don’t agree with weight training but that is another discussion

    WTF??

    I don't think (I hope) that is another discussion. It's a ludicrous statement. How could you possibly even have anything to back you up if such a discussion did arise? No offence, but you are either: a) misinformed, or b) making irresponsible comments without any knowledge of the area you are talking about.


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    #58
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    Maybe he prefers methods which involve no equipment.

    Why the aggression?


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    #59
    themandan6611
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭themandan6611


    kev.f wrote: »
    [FONT= any comments are welcomed.[/FONT]


    yeah ur a tool :D


    Mod edit: infracted.


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    #60
    chadmustang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭chadmustang


    We're not looking for the perfect program so to speak.. Just looking for templates that will fit most of the gym going general public who want to look good nekkid (and gain a bit of strength while they're at it!!).

    PS can we have the "Against Weights" discussion please?


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    #61
    banshee_bones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,160 ✭✭✭✭banshee_bones


    chadmustang wrote: »
    PS can we have the "Against Weights" discussion please?

    Must.not.feed.troll! :pac:


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