What a spineless nation...

riclad · 18-02-2012 5:58pm

300 million is nothing compared with the money spent on pensions for politicians ,retiring high paid civil servants and the billions being paid to anglo bondholders.
I don,t understand why a civil servant at 50 years of age needs a 70k pension and lump sum payment when the government is borrowing 20billion a year to pay the bills.
I never said everyone in a council house is on welfare,thats your assumption.Theres many areas where
90 per cent of the houses have been bought from the
council,and most of the residents are working or retired on an old age pension.
She went off welfare 2 years ago ,shes training to be a chemist .IN reference to the woman in my first post on this thread.
IN the present crisis it would make more sense to say max civil service pension will be 45k, or any pension for a civil servant over 40 is taxed at 75 per cent rate .
Its morally wrong for the government to sack teachers while people are retiring on such large pensions,although i understand many civil servants are on just the average wage.

gerryo777 · 18-02-2012 6:03pm

I wonder how much fraud goes on in the PS?
Anyone heard of 'the bubble room'?
Anyone in the PS want to come on and enlighten us?
Or is it not to be spoken of outside the PS?
Just wondering, like....

dvpower · 18-02-2012 6:06pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

I wonder how much fraud goes on in the PS?
Anyone heard of 'the bubble room'?
Anyone in the PS want to come on and enlighten us?
Or is it not to be spoken of outside the PS?
Just wondering, like....

Is it anything like 'the padded cell'?

gerryo777 · 18-02-2012 6:07pm

dvpower wrote: »

Is it anything like 'the padded cell'?

1.

gerryo777 · 18-02-2012 6:16pm

Actually, here's a point dvpower.
Going by your posts I would presume that you work in the PS.
Now you know, as well as I know that there are people in that system who do nothing or as little as possible all day.
People who underperform in their jobs, people who just keep their heads down and don't get noticed,people who aren't allowed to move to a different section because their union reps say so etc etc.
I know a few people who work in the PS and they all tell me it's a piece of p**s, they spend a lot of time on facebook, football forums and sending private emails during work hours.
Is that not a fraud of sorts?

tayto lover · 18-02-2012 6:21pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Actually, here's a point dvpower.
Going by your posts I would presume that you work in the PS.
Now you know, as well as I know that there are people in that system who do nothing or as little as possible all day.
People who underperform in their jobs, people who just keep their heads down and don't get noticed,people who aren't allowed to move to a different section because their union reps say so etc etc.
I know a few people who work in the PS and they all tell me it's a piece of p**s, they spend a lot of time on facebook, football forums and sending private emails during work hours.
Is that not a fraud of sorts?

i know a few men who told me the opposite.

Seanchai · 18-02-2012 6:24pm

Gi joe! wrote: »

Honestly what are you hoping to accomplish with this post?

What did you hope to accomplish with you post? What does anybody hope to accomplish with their posts? How would Boards.ie survive without thousands of evidently stupid, pointless people making evidently stupid, pointless posts?

AudreyHepburn · 18-02-2012 6:25pm

dark crystal wrote: »

Audrey, the situation is not always as black and white as people make out.

Someone living on €188 a week may well be trying to find work, but not having any success. A huge bill comes in and this person has to pay it, but the dole doesn't even come near to what they need to pay this bill, get food on the table and pay the mortgage as well.

Someone offers them two days work, for which they can earn enough to pay this bill, so they take it and don't declare it to SW, as it will mean jumping through a pile red tape and possibly losing future payments.

Would you seriously consider turning this person in?

If you are not entitled to the dole, or to the amount, then you shouldn't get it, simple as. You are keeping back money from those who really need it

And surely anyone receiving such payments has a duty of disclosure when something in their personal situation, which could alter their entitlements, changes?

steddyeddy · 18-02-2012 6:27pm

How many objected to the dodgy building practices? To the dodgy and often illegal activities in the banking sector? How many object to the attitude of neoptisim, cronyisim and corrutpion in this country? Yet people object to someone claiming social welfare when they shouldnt.

This country really needs to stop accepting the sh1t coming from their politicians. How many has been prosecuted over corruption and other dodgy practices in this country? Get your priorities right ireland.

AudreyHepburn · 18-02-2012 6:29pm

dark crystal wrote: »

But where do these phone calls stop?

I mean, would you report someone you know for illegally downloading music or films?

Would you report two 16 year olds you know engaging in consensual sex?

Would you report your neighbour for having an unlicenced dog or enjoying a spliff every now and again?

If you are going start reporting crime, then you should at least be consistant about it and report every crime someone you know engages in.

It'll end up making you look extremely petty and miserable, but if you're going to make a stand about being a good citizen and reporting crime wherever you see it happening, then that's what you have to do.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a struggling person make a few quid on the side in order to pay their bills, rather than report them and see the money go back into greedy politicians and bankers back pockets.

I guess that just makes me a bad citizen, though.

Teenagers messing around and free music don't hurt anyone.

Drugs or dangerous dogs could and do.

If something does not pose a risk to others than I would have no interest in reporting.

Social Welfare Fraud means places in the queue are being kept from people who really need the money.

dvpower · 18-02-2012 6:29pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Actually, here's a point dvpower.
Going by your posts I would presume that you work in the PS.
Now you know, as well as I know that there are people in that system who do nothing or as little as possible all day.
People who underperform in their jobs, people who just keep their heads down and don't get noticed,people who aren't allowed to move to a different section because their union reps say so etc etc.
I know a few people who work in the PS and they all tell me it's a piece of p**s, they spend a lot of time on facebook, football forums and sending private emails during work hours.
Is that not a fraud of sorts?

I don't work in the PS, but I did in the past both in the UK and in Ireland.

There is all sorts of waste, under performance, stupid regulations and lack of incentive, but I wouldn't classify it as fraud - I'd classify it as really bad management. Its not limited to the PS - you can get this, to some extent or another, in many large organisations.

steddyeddy · 18-02-2012 6:31pm

dvpower wrote: »

I don't work in the PS, but I did in the past both in the UK and in Ireland.

There is all sorts of waste, under performance, stupid regulations and lack of incentive, but I wouldn't classify it as fraud - I'd classify it as really bad management. Its not limited to the PS - you can get this, to some extent or another, in many large organisations.

I would agree I wouldnt count it as fraud either. However I can think of real situations in this country that the Irish should have spoken out against.

gerryo777 · 18-02-2012 6:36pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

How many objected to the dodgy building practices? To the dodgy and often illegal activities in the banking sector? How many object to the attitude of neoptisim, cronyisim and corrutpion in this country? Yet people object to someone claiming social welfare when they shouldnt.

This country really needs to stop accepting the sh1t coming from their politicians. How many has been prosecuted over corruption and other dodgy practices in this country? Get your priorities right ireland.

Your spot on there steddyeddy, but it's easy to attack the living standards of the most vulnerable in society.
The vested interests like the bankers, the developers, the civil servants (a joke title if ever there was one, should be the self servants) the PS all live to a different set of rules than the rest of us.
I'm self-employed and I have to get out there every day and find work/make work for myself, if I don't my kids will go without.

guitarzero · 18-02-2012 6:40pm

THE IRONING'S DELICIOUS

dvpower · 18-02-2012 6:45pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Your spot on there steddyeddy, but it's easy to attack the living standards of the most vulnerable in society.

The 'most vulnerable' include, presumably, those who rely on social welfare for their income. Social welfare fraud eats into the social welfare budget and puts direct pressure on the funding for people who rely on social welfare. If fraud isn't tackled, it is social welfare schemes that will be cut to make up the difference.

Clamping down on social welfare fraud is a way protecting the 'most vulnerable'.

gerryo777 · 18-02-2012 6:52pm

dvpower wrote: »

The 'most vulnerable' include, presumably, those who rely on social welfare for their income. Social welfare fraud eats into the social welfare budget and puts direct pressure on the funding for people who rely on social welfare. If fraud isn't tackled, it is social welfare schemes that will be cut to make up the difference.

Clamping down on social welfare fraud is a way protecting the 'most vulnerable'.

Yea, that's true.
Looking at that report though did it not say that we are about average when it comes to actual fraud?
It happens and no country will ever stamp it out.
The way this country was governed for the last 20 years has, and continues to, cost us vast sums of money in wastage.

steddyeddy · 18-02-2012 7:20pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Your spot on there steddyeddy, but it's easy to attack the living standards of the most vulnerable in society.
The vested interests like the bankers, the developers, the civil servants (a joke title if ever there was one, should be the self servants) the PS all live to a different set of rules than the rest of us.
I'm self-employed and I have to get out there every day and find work/make work for myself, if I don't my kids will go without.

Fair play to you man I really admire that. Yes this country has a history of attacking the most vunerable for society and as you know yourself. It also makes it hard for people to rise from the situation they are born into. It likes to reward cronyisim and nepotisim often at the expense of thsoe who work hard. The civil service has more relatives in it than a family get together. I dont think people on the dole doing an odd nixer or whatever are the cause of any of our problems.

dark crystal · 19-02-2012 12:08am

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Teenagers messing around and free music don't hurt anyone.

Drugs or dangerous dogs could and do.

If something does not pose a risk to others than I would have no interest in reporting.

Social Welfare Fraud means places in the queue are being kept from people who really need the money.

Illegally downloading costs millions to the Irish exchequer through VAT and tax losses each year. Stores selling CD's and DVD's like Xtravision and HMV are closing down stores left, right and centre, causing many job losses. Cinemas are also taking a big hit. I certainly wouldn't say illegal downloading isn't hurting anyone.

Also, How does someone doing a nixer on the side equate to someone else losing their place in the queue?

Jake187 · 19-02-2012 12:23am

jewett wrote: »

I am ashamed to be Irish today.
As a taxpayer , lets get this straight from the start - I do not condone social welfare fraud.
However, I find it extremely sad that people - neighbors, relatives and friends and now "ratting" on each other to the state. There is now going to an atmosphere of mutual distrust in our communities. This is like something of what would of happened in East Germany.
Meanwhile, when it comes to corrupt politicians, bankers and senior civil servants. These spineless people won't take to the streets. Instead, they hide behind the anonymity of email or text messaging. They will tolerate corruption as long as its done by people in suits. Sickening.
Ireland really is changing for the worse.

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! I cant agree with you anymore.

I've read my share of "social welfare fraud" threads on boards in recent weeks. Its bloody sickening. That they who fraud are meant to be the worst problems the country faces.

But yet, wont do or even SAY anything bad about the true problem.

+ 1 mate.

tdv123 · 19-02-2012 12:25am

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Teenagers messing around and free music don't hurt anyone.

Drugs or dangerous dogs could and do.

If something does not pose a risk to others than I would have no interest in reporting.

Social Welfare Fraud means places in the queue are being kept from people who really need the money.

Not true.

Jake187 · 19-02-2012 12:34am

tayto lover wrote: »

It is the duty of every citizen to report crime especially when we are all paying for it.

delta_bravo wrote: »

If a person is robbing me as a taxpayer and robbing all other citizens I would report them and feel they should be punished. I don't see an issue with this.

TheZohan wrote: »

"ratting on"...FFS. I suppose if a mate of yours was involved in a hit and run you wouldn't report them either?

The above posts with high amounts of "Thanks" ...

In my life I have seen so much hypocrisy. Often those who are officially against something with such conviction are the same ones who would do the same, or are.

Liam Byrne · 19-02-2012 12:43am

steddyeddy wrote: »

How many objected to the dodgy building practices? To the dodgy and often illegal activities in the banking sector? How many object to the attitude of neoptisim, cronyisim and corrutpion in this country? Yet people object to someone claiming social welfare when they shouldnt.

This country really needs to stop accepting the sh1t coming from their politicians. How many has been prosecuted over corruption and other dodgy practices in this country? Get your priorities right ireland.

The country needs to stop ALL con-artists robbing the rest of us - whether those con-artists are social welfare frauds, politicians, bankers, developers or whoever.

steddyeddy · 19-02-2012 4:49am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The country needs to stop ALL con-artists robbing the rest of us - whether those con-artists are social welfare frauds, politicians, bankers, developers or whoever.

True but the country picked on the weakest. Spinless irish. Whoever called the sw are a bunch of brain dead simpiltons.

bodhrandude · 19-02-2012 4:55am

steddyeddy wrote: »

True but the country picked on the weakest. Spinless irish. Whoever called the sw are a bunch of brain dead simpiltons.

Speaking of which?

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 5:02am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Spinless irish.

I'm Irish. Are you calling me spineless?

Liam Byrne · 19-02-2012 7:25am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The country needs to stop ALL con-artists robbing the rest of us - whether those con-artists are social welfare frauds, politicians, bankers, developers or whoever.

True but the country picked on the weakest. Spinless irish. Whoever called the sw are a bunch of brain dead simpiltons.

Not true. You can't say what each of their motivation or circumstances are.

Farcical sweeping generalisations won't help your case.

Freddie59 · 19-02-2012 10:07am

steddyeddy wrote: »

gerryo777 wrote: »

Your spot on there steddyeddy, but it's easy to attack the living standards of the most vulnerable in society.
The vested interests like the bankers, the developers, the civil servants (a joke title if ever there was one, should be the self servants) the PS all live to a different set of rules than the rest of us.
I'm self-employed and I have to get out there every day and find work/make work for myself, if I don't my kids will go without.

Fair play to you man I really admire that. Yes this country has a history of attacking the most vunerable for society and as you know yourself. It also makes it hard for people to rise from the situation they are born into. It likes to reward cronyisim and nepotisim often at the expense of thsoe who work hard. The civil service has more relatives in it than a family get together. I dont think people on the dole doing an odd nixer or whatever are the cause of any of our problems.

Not at all. But the ones working and signing are.

Freddie59 · 19-02-2012 10:10am

dvpower wrote: »

gerryo777 wrote: »

Predictable answer.

I know. You make it too easy.

dark crystal wrote: »

The only difference though is that SW fraud is much easier to detect in that a lot of fraud could be stopped if SW officer A's computer just spoke to SW officer B's computer.

Welfare fraud can be very difficult to detect. For example, if someone is working and claiming, that can go on forever without detection unless they are stupid enough to be using their PPS number. To detect this type of fraud usually requires that someone reports it.

I'm not sure what category of fraud would be detected if Social Welfare computers were linked up (I'm sure they already are)? Maybe better sharing between different government departments (e.g. Social Welfare and Revenue) would detect some fraud.

The fools can't get PPARS to work properly. Imagine them trying to set up a common database..

steddyeddy · 19-02-2012 8:21pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Not true. You can't say what each of their motivation or circumstances are.

Farcical sweeping generalisations won't help your case.

Sorry Liam I was angry I take some of that statement back. Ill tell you why Im angry though. As I stated before how many people ignored the goings on in the bank system, the building of sub par houses the dodgy corruption but what I forgot to say is that for deacdes ireland also ignored the child abuse going on in the church. All that is hard enough to stomach however the final straw is people accepting the bile coming out of burtons mouth and reporting people who in many cases are decent people maybe not declaring the odd nixer or two. If someone is working full time and claiming then fair enough but many are small offenses.

Out of all the crap that has gone on in ireland, child abuse, political scandal, politicians paid more than some of the richer countries in the world, people struggling to keep the electiricty on and yet the thing that some idiots found the need to complain about is social welfare fraud?? Well done however done that your real heros.

aphex™ · 19-02-2012 8:26pm

Fella I know has the dole. He never had a job, and was never questioned as to why he has not worked a day in his life by the dole office before giving him JSA. That was several years ago and he's still on it.

You know, if they can't get the basics right why report fraud?

dvpower · 19-02-2012 8:41pm

aphex™ wrote: »

Fella I know has the dole. He never had a job, and was never questioned as to why he has not worked a day in his life by the dole office before giving him JSA. That was several years ago and he's still on it.

You know, if they can't get the basics right why report fraud?

That's a pretty stupid reason not to report fraud. Its not doing social welfare officials a personal favour you know.

gerryo777 · 19-02-2012 8:51pm

It's still hard to believe that there is 17,000 people in this country who would grass on their neighbours.

It's a pity there's not 17,000 'whistleblowers' in the PS/civil service/banking sectors who would grass up on the wastage and fraud that happens there.

Protected interests and all that!

aphex™ · 19-02-2012 8:51pm

dvpower wrote: »

That's a pretty stupid reason not to report fraud. Its not doing social welfare officials a personal favour you know.

No it's not. They could probably save more money if they spent a morning looking at a computer screen reviewing their own stupid mistakes than following somebody around for a week to see if they're doing nixers while on the dole. Cheaper too.

LuckyLloyd · 19-02-2012 9:19pm

Red_Wake wrote: »

Except the Mahon Tribunal took place over a number of years.

Presumably the 300m fraud in social welfare is per annum, and thus is more than 3 times larger than the cost of the Mahon Tribunal.

But if it's 300m per annum than let me ask - how exactly is this in anyway a priority given the state's total deficit? This doesn't matter. Your 'man down the road' gaming the system is not the major issue affecting the fortunes of the country - though it is expedient for politicians to make you believe that he is.

gerryo777 · 19-02-2012 9:24pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But if it's 300m per annum than let me ask - how exactly is this in anyway a priority given the state's total deficit? This doesn't matter. Your 'man down the road' gaming the system is not the major issue affecting the fortunes of the country - though it is expedient for politicians to make you believe that he is.

Almost 7 times that figure has been given away to unsecured secondary bondholders in a bank that no longer exists (anglo) since christmas.

LuckyLloyd · 19-02-2012 9:27pm

Also, nobody for snitching to the SW has addressed the gaping disparity between amount of reports and amount of reports that concerned genuine cases of fraud.

Is every incorrect accusation of fraud a mere mistake on the part of the person who submitted the report? Or is the more likely explanation true: people who would submit a report of fraud are bitter people using the facility as a means of hitting out at fellow members of their community that they dislike?

Divide and conquer.

dvpower · 19-02-2012 9:44pm

aphex™ wrote: »

No it's not. They could probably save more money if they spent a morning looking at a computer screen reviewing their own stupid mistakes than following somebody around for a week to see if they're doing nixers while on the dole. Cheaper too.

So, in a nutshell, you don't want to help the DSP cut down on overpayments because they're just not very good at doing it themselves.

I'm sure there is some strange logic in there somewhere.

gerryo777 · 19-02-2012 9:47pm

dvpower wrote: »

So, in a nutshell, you don't want to help the DSP cut down on overpayments because they're just not very good at doing it themselves.
I'm sure there is some strange logic in there somewhere.

Sure maybe we should do their jobs for them!

woodoo · 19-02-2012 9:49pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

The fools can't get PPARS to work properly. Imagine them trying to set up a common database..

PPARS works fine now

gerryo777 · 19-02-2012 9:52pm

woodoo wrote: »

PPARS works fine now

At what cost and after how many years?
That's another 2 questions for you woodoo.

gerryo777 · 19-02-2012 9:58pm

Have a look at this.http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ppars%20cost%20up%20to%202012&source=web&cd=7&sqi=2&ved=0CE8QFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fhome%2Fhse-pay-system-costing-euro6m-a-year-129774.html&ei=bGFBT6WtIIuLhQe9scDkBQ&usg=AFQjCNF0Sx1FwzxwYfLMFgmKdZp4Qx4q_g

dvpower · 19-02-2012 9:58pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, nobody for snitching to the SW has addressed the gaping disparity between amount of reports and amount of reports that concerned genuine cases of fraud.

Why should people who are for 'snitching' address this disparity?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is every incorrect accusation of fraud a mere mistake on the part of the person who submitted the report?

There will be
a) genuine reports that are established to be fraud
b) genuine reports that can't be established to be fraud, but may be fraud
c) genuine reports that are mistaken
d) malicious reports

lividduck · 19-02-2012 9:59pm

The Bondholders took my money, the Welfare fraudsters stole my money.
Thieving is thieving.

woodoo · 19-02-2012 10:03pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

At what cost and after how many years?
That's another 2 questions for you woodoo.

I was to busy to respond on fri.

Yes PPARS had a bad start. But it has been working fairly well now for the last 4 or 5 years. The people i know who use it say its a fairly unforgiving system but fine once you have experience using it.

gerryo777 · 19-02-2012 10:04pm

lividduck wrote: »

The Bondholders took my money, the Welfare fraudsters stole my money.
Thieving is thieving.

The social welfare officers who do their sums wrong gave your money away.
Have a look

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=cash%20incentive%20to%20report%20welfare%20fraud%20ireland&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGYQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnotesonthefront.typepad.com%2F&ei=5GJBT9ulH4KphAfAp8ywDw&usg=AFQjCNG1_4UPhXYkdRHVaubalNsLwEbqKQ

gerryo777 · 19-02-2012 10:06pm

woodoo wrote: »

I was to busy to respond on fri.

Yes PPARS had a bad start. But it has been working fairly well now for the last 4 or 5 years. The people i know who use it say its a fairly unforgiving system but fine once you have experience using it.

But costing on average €6 million per year to run.

dvpower · 19-02-2012 10:07pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

The fools can't get PPARS to work properly. Imagine them trying to set up a common database..

Are you saying that just because one part of the public service had a failed IT project, no other part of the public service should be trusted to implement other IT projects?:eek:

There are lots of examples of successful IT projects in the public service, for example, the Revenue ROS and CONTAX systems. Naturally enough, nobody ever hears about the successes.

woodoo · 19-02-2012 10:11pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

But costing on average €6 million per year to run.

I'm not aware how much it costs to run.

dvpower · 19-02-2012 10:12pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

But costing on average €6 million per year to run.

Is that good or bad? How much should it cost to run per year?

I'm getting the impression in this thread that people can't construct a good argument against reporting social welfare fraud, so are constructing (bad) arguments against other unrelated stuff instead.

Dubit10 · 19-02-2012 10:15pm

jewett wrote: »

I am ashamed to be Irish today.

As a taxpayer , lets get this straight from the start - I do not condone social welfare fraud.

However, I find it extremely sad that people - neighbors, relatives and friends and now "ratting" on each other to the state. There is now going to an atmosphere of mutual distrust in our communities. This is like something of what would of happened in East Germany.

Meanwhile, when it comes to corrupt politicians, bankers and senior civil servants. These spineless people won't take to the streets. Instead, they hide behind the anonymity of email or text messaging. They will tolerate corruption as long as its done by people in suits. Sickening.

Ireland really is changing for the worse.

It's always been that way in Ireland i'm afraid. A country of cowards by and large.

What a spineless nation...

Comments