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Should Peyton Manning Retire?
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The Broncos used a hybrid offence for the first two games this season trying to get Manning to take some snaps under centre. Since then Kubiak has basically gone right back to the Manning pistol offence because Manning can't do anything else. Manning is a one dimensional QB who can play in his system but nothing else - he has been exceptional at running his offence all his career and he has a very sharp mind that you need for what he does. The problem is that he doesn't have the physical ability to do this anymore - he is slow and weak and is releasing the ball as quick as he can into space without adjusting to the receivers.
The Broncos system doesn't suit Manning. That doesn't mean he is done though and we will see that if the Broncos don't re-adjust to their QB going forward and he leaves to go to a team that will use his strengths rather than cry about his apparent weaknesses.
I think it would be a serious mistake for him to play next year - and a big mistake for any team to take him. His play has dropped off a cliff since the middle of last season and it is continuing to decline on a game by game basis.He will most likely play next season and if he does leave you can guarantee there will be teams that will give their right nuts to take him and also adjust to his abilities and get a productive season out of him.
It wasn't my original question - others raised that point. The key point to be made about the 5-0 that the Broncos possesses is that it is exclusively down to the Denver D and their ability to create big turnovers. Last week against the Raiders the D - either through a turnover or driving the Raiders back - put Manning in excellent field position and the Broncos ended up kicking three FGs and then when Manning couldn't move the ball in the second half the D stepped up again pressured Carr and returned an INT for a TD - closing out the game by keeping the Raiders in check. That has been the season for the Broncos with the exception of one drive against KC.As to your original question about the Broncos being 5-0 with Osweiller. How can anyone possibly answer a what if based on hindsights. Osweiller is still an untested QB and there are a lot of factors that play into whether or not you guys would still be 5-0 with him starting.
Os is completely untested - and has well known limitations. But the upside is that he fits the WCO and the Broncos would have more success running the ball with OS as QB. He would make a ton of mistakes - but the Broncos D will carry the team to the play-offs. The problem with Manning is that he is making a ton of mistakes as it is and the run game will be anemic all season long - and the D is spending so much time on the field that they will eventually wear down and get hurt (like Ware who is out next game).0 -
Jolly Red Giant wrote: »The Broncos used a hybrid offence for the first two games this season trying to get Manning to take some snaps under centre. Since then Kubiak has basically gone right back to the Manning pistol offence because Manning can't do anything else. Manning is a one dimensional QB who can play in his system but nothing else - he has been exceptional at running his offence all his career and he has a very sharp mind that you need for what he does. The problem is that he doesn't have the physical ability to do this anymore - he is slow and weak and is releasing the ball as quick as he can into space without adjusting to the receivers.
Pistol offense still doesn't suit Manning all that well. But you are proving my point. You have a QB like Manning you find a system that works for him and plays to his strengths especially when he has lost some of his edge. And all of your opinions on his weaknesses are just that your opinion. There are many out there that will disagree with your opinion and many that say Manning is done.I think it would be a serious mistake for him to play next year - and a big mistake for any team to take him. His play has dropped off a cliff since the middle of last season and it is continuing to decline on a game by game basis.
Again your opinion. If Manning feels he is good to go he will continue to go and if not in Denver teams will jump on him. The same was said about Favre and he nearly took the Vikes to a bowl. If it wasn't for the Saints defense smashing him up and head hunting him knowing his age would play a huge factor with injuries he probably could have done it.It wasn't my original question - others raised that point.
Oh?Jolly Red Giant wrote: »This is actually being debated by Broncos fans - and the conclusion at the moment is probably yes. Osweiler has all the physical skills needed to play QB and specifically to operate the WCO. He has a cannon for an arm, can roll-out and is effective with play-action. Many Broncos fans believe that with Os defences would have to play honest and respect the deep ball, the running game would improve because Os would play under center and an improved running game would help the offence all around,The key point to be made about the 5-0 that the Broncos possesses is that it is exclusively down to the Denver D and their ability to create big turnovers. Last week against the Raiders the D - either through a turnover or driving the Raiders back - put Manning in excellent field position and the Broncos ended up kicking three FGs and then when Manning couldn't move the ball in the second half the D stepped up again pressured Carr and returned an INT for a TD - closing out the game by keeping the Raiders in check. That has been the season for the Broncos with the exception of one drive against KC.
No one is debating that your defense is winning games.Os is completely untested - and has well known limitations. But the upside is that he fits the WCO and the Broncos would have more success running the ball with OS as QB. He would make a ton of mistakes - but the Broncos D will carry the team to the play-offs. The problem with Manning is that he is making a ton of mistakes as it is and the run game will be anemic all season long - and the D is spending so much time on the field that they will eventually wear down and get hurt (like Ware who is out next game).
So an untested QB is a better option than Manning? Probably not. I have a feeling if Osweiller went in and the Broncos started to tank you would be throwing him under the bus also.0 -
if he had simply lost 'some of his edge' that would be more than workable.You have a QB like Manning you find a system that works for him and plays to his strengths especially when he has lost some of his edge.
Have a look at the stats I posted in he OP - in particular the fact that the Broncos had a 3rd down conversion rate of 18% against the Raiders. I have watched every single Broncos game since Manning became QB. He was not the elite player he was with the Colts when he arrived - his arm strength was diminished from the neck injury - but he played a major role in bringing the Broncos from the disaster of McDaniels back to competitors and restoring the standing of the franchise. His play started to drop in a serious way in the middle of last season and was compounded by the injury. He is now playing worse than he was when he was hurt at the tail end of last season and the decline is continuing on a game by game basis - the Raiders was his worst game since he joined the Broncos.And all of your opinions on his weaknesses are just that your opinion. There are many out there that will disagree with your opinion and many that say Manning is done.
Farve was bad - Manning could be worse at this stage - and Manning might get to the SB because of the Denver DIf Manning feels he is good to go he will continue to go and if not in Denver teams will jump on him. The same was said about Favre and he nearly took the Vikes to a bowl. If it wasn't for the Saints defense smashing him up and head hunting him knowing his age would play a huge factor with injuries he probably could have done it.
Come on now - have a look and you will see that it was a response to another postOh?
Again - I never made such a claim - others are suggesting that if Os was the starting QB the Broncos would not be 5-0. I am suggesting that the D won the games and the Broncos could still be 5-0. I am not and never have suggested that Manning should be benched for Os.So an untested QB is a better option than Manning? Probably not.
I am a Broncos fan and I defend the Broncos players even when they are not playing well. This thread was not started by me to criticise Manning and suggest he be replaced - I started the thread to pose the question has the play of Manning fallen off a cliff (which I think it has) and as a result should he consider retiring in order not the damage his standing in the NFL and to avoid possible serious injury (which is far more likely in the current situation)I have a feeling if Osweiller went in and the Broncos started to tank you would be throwing him under the bus also.0 -
Jolly Red Giant wrote: »if he had simply lost 'some of his edge' that would be more than workable.
Oh that is right Manning in your eyes Manning is done. My apologiesHave a look at the stats I posted in he OP - in particular the fact that the Broncos had a 3rd down conversion rate of 18% against the Raiders. I have watched every single Broncos game since Manning became QB. He was not the elite player he was with the Colts when he arrived - his arm strength was diminished from the neck injury - but he played a major role in bringing the Broncos from the disaster of McDaniels back to competitors and restoring the standing of the franchise. His play started to drop in a serious way in the middle of last season and was compounded by the injury. He is now playing worse than he was when he was hurt at the tail end of last season and the decline is continuing on a game by game basis - the Raiders was his worst game since he joined the Broncos.
If you say so.Farve was bad - Manning could be worse at this stage - and Manning might get to the SB because of the Denver D
Favre was bad? He got the Vikings to the NFC Championship and lost the game to the Saints after they bashed him up. His final season he did ok but in 2010 their oline was banged up as were their WR. It was the back end of 2010 injury saw the end of Favre.Come on now - have a look and you will see that it was a response to another post
The other post mentioned the backup filling in and said the backup wasnt readyHow do those stats stack up against any possible replacement? Who is going to come in?
Tebow??!!..come on, sadly for the Broncos they don't have a replacement ready to go that knows the offence and is good enough. Problem for them to solve.
They brought up the question and you made the point to be fair.Again - I never made such a claim - others are suggesting that if Os was the starting QB the Broncos would not be 5-0. I am suggesting that the D won the games and the Broncos could still be 5-0. I am not and never have suggested that Manning should be benched for Os.
Your point is MAnning should retire. And you mentioned thisThis is actually being debated by Broncos fans - and the conclusion at the moment is probably yes. Osweiler has all the physical skills needed to play QB and specifically to operate the WCO. He has a cannon for an arm, can roll-out and is effective with play-action. Many Broncos fans believe that with Os defences would have to play honest and respect the deep ball, the running game would improve because Os would play under center and an improved running game would help the offence all around,
Which 100% suggest the Osweiller would be better and be better than Manning. Do you even read anymore what you write?I am a Broncos fan and I defend the Broncos players even when they are not playing well. This thread was not started by me to criticise Manning and suggest he be replaced - I started the thread to pose the question has the play of Manning fallen off a cliff (which I think it has) and as a result should he consider retiring in order not the damage his standing in the NFL and to avoid possible serious injury (which is far more likely in the current situation)
You have done nothing but criticise Manning though. Almost seems like you are asking the question should he retire so you can tell us why he should retire while criticizing him a long the way0 -
Manning is far far removed from his prime. he wont be gone this year, but I cant see him hanging around next year. I think he is too competitive to see himself slip back and not be able to perform.
He's one season removed from one of the greatest QB seasons of all time, when his team were statistically the greatest offense of all time. Hardly that far removed from his prime. Personally think he's fallen from those heights a little too quickly for it to be just age. I think he'll either turn it around or some underlying injury will force him out of the game0 -
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There are some things every retired player says they miss, The comraderie of the locker room and the roar of the crowd on the field. It's like a drug, and manning has been chasing that dragon a long ass time0
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Manning had another rough game last night - 1TD and 3 INTs - he now leads the league in INTs.
Over the last three weeks Manning's play has continued to decline
Week 4 - ranked 28 out of 30 - QBR of 68.9
Week 5 - ranked 28 out of 30 - QBR of 62.3
Week 6 - ranked 28 out of 28 - QBR of 53.3
The Broncos won the game and Manning should be given credit for a 30yd pass to Sanders which he ran in for a 75yd TD - but the Broncos should never have needed it. Manning had previously tossed a pass out into the flat behind Ronnie Hillman that was INT and run in for a TD. The Browns foolishly went for a failed 2pt conversion - if they had kicked the PAT they would have won in regular time.
It is really sad to see Manning's play deteriorate to such a degree and lead to the poorest play of any QB in the league - and there are some donkeys playing QB. Manning keeps making excuses and avoiding the problems he is facing. In an interview after the game he said he wouldn't be going to Vagas during the bye-week implying he is being plagued by bad-luck - it's not bad luck - it's bad play.0 -
3 or 4 bad drops from his receivers didn't help, but there's no getting away from the fact that he was absolutely horrendous yesterday. I still don't think Brock Osweiler will be the answer to anything however.
I posted this over the on the week 6 thread but it's probably best placed here -
Crazy how it seems to just go though [Manning's ability], isn't it?
Looking back at the game logs, by all means he was there or thereabouts consistently his usual self until around week 14 last season. Then bang, suddenly he goes (on TD's/INT's) 0/2, 1/0, 2/4, 0/0 and 1/0 with passer ratings of 56.9, 61.8, 80.0 and a 125.6 thrown in there before this seasons well documented issues.
Anyone think he could be still playing injured or has it gone, just like that?0 -
I only started watching NFL around 2007, and really it was 2010/11 before I was able to watch it with any regularity, and probably 2012/13 before I really started getting invested in the game and in anyway knowledgable. But it is damn sad for me to see Manning like this now. I can't imagine what its like for people who watched him from 1998, or even in college prior to the NFL.
I hope this doesn't taint his reputation for some. One of the best to ever play the game, and he brought that QB position and the passing attack on so much in his time in the league, I feel. All that work he does presnap, his hurry up offense, and his religious, dogged preparation and study of the game.
Himself and Brady, who'll he'll inevitably always be associated with, are pioneers of the modern quarterback, and the modern game in general.0 -
If the Broncos stand any chance of getting anything out of Manning they are going to have to adjust their whole offense mid season. The problem with that though as we have seen and JRG has pointed out their lineman are so used to a full zone system as are their backs. As they are using a Hybrid system they can't even get production out of their backs who lets face it are not hard nosed downhill runners.
Tough one as the system doesn't completely suit a healthy Manning and sure as hell doesn't suit a banged up Manning. No time in the pocket and having to make reads so quickly is not helping him.0 -
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Also why the **** is manning running draws or whatever it is when he rolls out, I could tackle manning if I left for america today before he ran 10 yards0
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It is early days, and lots can change, but it looks like Denver are going toe-to-toe with the Bengals and New England for the top two seeds in the post season. November is going to be crucial - it is a month where they host Green Bay and New England, and travel to the Colts. It is hard to see them winning more than one of those games with Manning under centre.
But if they do, their remaining schedule isn't too bad. If Manning can manage them to a #1 or #2 seed in the post season, then they have a chance in any individual game with that defensive play.0 -
Anyone think he could be still playing injured or has it gone, just like that?
I don't think he's playing injured. Mainly because a lot of his poor play has come from mental errors, poor decision making, telegraphing passes ect. Even looking back to 2013 when he had a very good season, his throwing mechanics back then were really deteriorating and he threw so many ducks. But having a very good WR corp around him really helped and maybe deflected people's attention from the physical deterioration that was happening back then.
In most sports, athletes will usually deteriorate physically before they lose it mentally. With Manning I think the physical part has been happening since 2012 and now we see the mental part and a QB can't hide from that. I think 2013 was the year he shouldn't have walked, it was a swansong season and half way through 2014 he just ran out of gas.
As someone who saw Manning enter the league, it's a sad site to behold and it's not so much that time has caught up with him. But rather that he appears to be happy enough going out there each week and playing to a standard that's just not him. You get accustomed to the likes of Manning & Brady carrying their teams through the years. But right now, pretty much everybody is carrying Peyton. Yes he certainly earned it, I just thought he never be happy with it or even put up with it.0 -
It's sad to see the decline alright, he was really a great player once, but right now it seems as though the broncos are winning in spite of him.
Osweiler may not be the long term solution, but make a trade, there are plenty of guys around the league who could come in and do enough to make that team competative down the stretch. (Yes they're 5-0 now, but I can't see the defence alone beating the Packers, Patriots, Colts, Steelers, Bengals, Cardinals)0 -
It could also be about options. The offense and his failing physical abilities mean that there are only so many plays the Broncos can run. It means the defense knows what is coming and makes it harder and harder for him Manning to pull it off. It forces him into bad decisions to try and move the football as the defense can cover all his options much easier than they could 3 years ago.0
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It could also be about options. The offense and his failing physical abilities mean that there are only so many plays the Broncos can run. It means the defense knows what is coming and makes it harder and harder for him Manning to pull it off. It forces him into bad decisions to try and move the football as the defense can cover all his options much easier than they could 3 years ago.
The Broncos are limited on offence because Manning can't throw the ball further than 10 yards. Once every couple of games he will manage to heave one off that doesn't float for ever (like last night for the Sanders TD) but it is generally a case that he is extremely limited in range.
As a result opponents don't have to worry about a deep ball, can stack the box, focus on stopping the run and then let loose with pressure. Manning is making a ton of mistakes, he cannot move the offence. Even last night when the Broncos got their running game going against an anemic run D of the Browns, with the exception of one pass, Manning couldn't get the job done.
The OL is struggling - the loss of Clady has resulted in a very inexperienced line that has not gelled. Last night the starting LT Sambrailo and the starting LG Mathis were out injured with rookie guard Max Garcia starting and back-up journeyman Polumbus. Gracia has huge upsides and will be a starting G for the Broncos for years to come but will struggle to produce in the current line. The primary issue with the line is that the players were drafted with the physical skills to run stretch plays using the ZBS. But the Broncos cannot utilise the ZBS because Manning cannot operate under center. The OL cannot run a power game because the linemen are too light and get pushed off the ball.
The problem for Manning is that things are not going to get any better (despite his continuous claims it will). Manning's decline began before the injury last season - the injury actually masked the decline in that it was used as an excuse to cover up his decline (and that was the story spun by Manning's handlers). Manning has been fortunate - the Broncos have played teams that have not had the most stellar of defences. There are a number of games coming up that could lead to much bigger problems for Manning and much more difficult issues for the coaching staff to address. The biggest danger is that the OL won't be able to help Manning and he could get seriously hurt.
It is unfortunate now because some commentators are now seriously asking the question whether Manning should be benched. Last week Kubiak had to address a series of questions from journalists about Manning's play and whether he should be on the pitch. Last night Manning's teammates were asked similar questions. It is clear that some on the Broncos defence are getting frustrated with the lack of production from Manning and the offence. Talib was far from steadfast in his support from Manning when it was pointed out to him that he has more touchdowns from INTs that the No.1 WR, Thomas and starting RB, Anderson who have a combined 1 TD between them.
It really is sad when a QB of Manning's standing, a player who, as has been said, raised the bar for QB play, being talked about in terms of being benched. The decline is there for everyone to see. Manning will not be benched by Elway and Kubiak - but if the level of play from Manning continues to be the worst QB play in the league then who would rule out the possibility of him suffering an 'injury'.0 -
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I think this is a fair ranking over the season, criteria set out clearly enough. As of one week ago there were 10 qb's worse than him.
Enough to retire? No. He'd need to be flat bottom and drifting I would bet. They won't bench him at 6-0, end of discussion. He will retire in the off season, at which point Denver will be stuck with Os, good luck with that.0 -
Magico Gonzalez wrote: »I think this is a fair ranking over the season, criteria set out clearly enough. As of one week ago there were 10 qb's worse than him.
Enough to retire? No. He'd need to be flat bottom and drifting I would bet. They won't bench him at 6-0, end of discussion. He will retire in the off season, at which point Denver will be stuck with Os, good luck with that.
The hope for Manning this season is for him to stop trying to do what he has done all his career - trying to carry the offence. If Manning stops the mistakes and protects the ball - trusts the rest of his teammates and rides the defence - then the Broncos will be in a much healthier position. It's the mistakes by Manning that is making the games tight for the Broncos. By becoming a game manager Manning could end up going a long way this season.
Personally I don't think he can do this - it goes against everything he has ever done and I don't think he can do it any different.0 -
I bet Dom Capers makes him look great again in two weeks time.0
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Jolly Red Giant wrote: »It is unfortunate now because some commentators are now seriously asking the question whether Manning should be benched. Last week Kubiak had to address a series of questions from journalists about Manning's play and whether he should be on the pitch. Last night Manning's teammates were asked similar questions. It is clear that some on the Broncos defence are getting frustrated with the lack of production from Manning and the offence. Talib was far from steadfast in his support from Manning when it was pointed out to him that he has more touchdowns from INTs that the No.1 WR, Thomas and starting RB, Anderson who have a combined 1 TD between them.
It really is sad when a QB of Manning's standing, a player who, as has been said, raised the bar for QB play, being talked about in terms of being benched. The decline is there for everyone to see. Manning will not be benched by Elway and Kubiak - but if the level of play from Manning continues to be the worst QB play in the league then who would rule out the possibility of him suffering an 'injury'.
In fairness while the rest of your comment had some nice posts I have zero time for sports commentators who just want a story as sensational as they can get. There was a point last season when the Patriots were being asked about Brady. Different situation I know but it just shows sports commentators should never be used as evidence that someone should be dropped.0 -
this has to be his last season0
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The perfectly timed retirement is such a rarity in sports generally, not just American Football. He has stayed a year too long, and there is no way they can win a Super Bowl this year with him playing as he is out of the shotgun. But this will end with him throwing multiple interceptions on a January field, not before - sport is too cruel to spare him that fate.0
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LuckyLloyd wrote: »The perfectly timed retirement is such a rarity in sports generally, not just American Football. He has stayed a year too long, and there is no way they can win a Super Bowl this year with him playing as he is out of the shotgun. But this will end with him throwing multiple interceptions on a January field, not before - sport is too cruel to spare him that fate.
He threw multiple at the weekend0 -
raze_them_all_ wrote: »He threw multiple at the weekend
Think you missed the point of Lloyds post. Re-read it.0 -
JaMarcusHustle wrote: »Think you missed the point of Lloyds post. Re-read it.
I know they'll make the post season0 -
The Sheriff is back in town0
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320+ yds with 12 minutes mins or more to go.
Some absolute waffle put to bed tonight about mid season retirements.0 -
Magico Gonzalez wrote: »320+ yds with 12 minutes mins or more to go.
Some absolute waffle put to bed tonight about mid season retirements.
This gets a pretty big lol
Also excellent timing, just as he was intercepted I believe?
He has come off a bye, is having no pressure put on him and nothing is put to bed tonight, he is still on a rapidly downward spiral and nothing is going to change that at this point. Get used to it."People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQ5J_-rAls
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