M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

marmurr1916 · 03-03-2009 11:51pm

Furet wrote: »

Surely this is a disaster? Has no one complained about the routing?

I suspect it was deliberately routed so far from Galway so that it wouldn't be used as a commuter route between there and Tuam.

This was probably done in anticipation of a Claregalway bypass and the completion of the Galway Outer Bypass.

Frankly, IMO, we shouldn't be encouraging long-distance commuting by road (and for a city of Galway's small size, commuting ca. 30-35km from Tuam or environs is a long-distance commute) and the correct decision was made in this case.

I also don't see a huge problem with the proposed M6/M18 junction.

Four M6-M18 (and vice-versa) movements will be free-flow via slip roads that bypass the roundabout, and the M18's mainline will be carried over the roundabout by bridges, while the M6's mainline will go underneath the mainline of the M18 and the roundabout: a three-level stack.

Traffic going straight on in either direction on both routes won't have to use the roundabout.

Only traffic making four M6-M18 (and vice-versa) movements will have to use the roundabout.

That means only about 25% of traffic at the junction will have to use the roundabout, plus the traffic that wants to access the MSA.

Amtmann · 04-03-2009 12:01am

That sounds quite agreeable actually. So why all the criticism?

L1011 · 04-03-2009 12:05am

Because triple level stacks are just inherently evil, sorry...

marmurr1916 · 04-03-2009 12:12am

Furet wrote: »

That sounds quite agreeable actually. So why all the criticism?

I don't think people are looking at the diagram properly. It would be helpful if north was indicated on the diagram so that the movements could be categorised properly.

mysterious · 04-03-2009 12:42am

MYOB wrote: »

Because triple level stacks are just inherently evil, sorry...

They are the work of the devil, It has to be in the bible somewhere. I'll check, but jebus, its nasty.

They cost just as much as a normal free flow interchange. The flaw is, they cant take as much traffic as a free flowing interchange and you can't upgrade them.

In England where are they are a common place, are now infamous too. They are just badass. Most of Europe and USA don't have these horrible three level stacks. They are just pointless to build.

mysterious · 04-03-2009 12:42am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I don't think people are looking at the diagram properly. It would be helpful if north was indicated on the diagram so that the movements could be categorised properly.

An ugly ducking is ugly no matter what angle you look at it.

Chris_533976 · 18-03-2009 6:17pm

Heres a little tidbit of news thats quite interesting -

This quote from a circular from the NRA says it all -

An Bord Pleanala issued its approval to the M17 Galway (Rathmorrisey) to Tuam Motorway Scheme 2007 on 6th March 2009. That approval contained a number of conditions including the deletion of the Rathmorrisey motorway service area from the project.

The current 3 level stack plan is still in place, but now there will be no motorway service area tacked onto the side of it.

A good decision IMO, at it was an utterly stupid place for an MSA.

If you're leaving Galway, its too close to Galway, if you're going TO Galway, its too close to Galway.

Still the 3 level stack tho, but no MSA any more.

Edit: The PLANNED timetable for this scheme is as follows (this assumes the PPP will go ahead which is unknown at this point. Also it assumes everything goes to plan, which it rarely does)

AFAIK the current tender notices are pre-qualification tenders.
Actual final tender submission is May 2010.
October 2010 contract awarded.
Current plan for road opening is 2013.

Who knows though

KevR · 19-03-2009 5:57pm

It always seemed to me that the only reason for a RAB instead of a free-flow whirlpool was so that they could attach the MSA to the 3 motorways via the RAB. Without the MSA I don't see why they couldn't improve the design of the junction. Don't even think it would be much more expensive.

spacetweek · 24-03-2009 1:11am

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Got some (bad) pics as a car passenger. Will post soon.

Chris, excellent catch on the removed MSA. Fantastic news - this MSA would have been a thorn in our side if we'd built it. The interchange would practically have been un-upgradeable.

Would love to get confirmation. We'll have it for sure next year if they start progressing the project.

Tech3 · 20-04-2009 4:32pm

Slightly off topic but realated to the same route regardless. Will the tuam bypass still be constructed with 4 roundabouts on the mainline. I know it will be 2+2 but surely that many roundabouts wont really give it a bypass tag. 2 roundabouts at most should be the limit.

I had a look through the galway country council website today at the routes for the N18/N17/tuam bypass. Trying to judge the cost of the project is going to be difficult in excess of a billion? There is going to be 4 grade seperated junctions including rathmorrissey interchange.

I belive we should have a new thread dedicated to the gort-tuam PPP as interest seems to be growing in this recently to keep it seperate from the G-C scheme?

Tech3 · 20-04-2009 4:57pm

tech2 wrote: »

Will the tuam bypass still be constructed with 4 roundabouts on the mainline.?

Im after finding the correct information on this a bypass to the west incorporating roundabouts at the south and north of tuam.

Sponge Bob · 20-04-2009 6:47pm

gort ennis cost €9.7m per km

is that a 2+1 Tuam Bypass tech2 ??

Chris_533976 · 20-04-2009 8:09pm

Tuam bypass was ok-ed by An Bord Pleanala as a S2 scheme. They're trying to get it appended as a dualler (presumably 2+2 w/roundabouts); according to the NRA this should go through by the end of May.

Tech3 · 21-04-2009 1:58am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

gort ennis cost €9.7m per km

is that a 2+1 Tuam Bypass tech2 ??

The NRA have scrapped 2+1's. On the second programme of PPP's announced by the NRA it stated that the tuam bypass will be built 2+2 with 2 roundabout junctions north and south. With the calculations of the ennis bypass the scheme would be 552 million for the 57 kms. I cant really imagine it being much off this maybe as far as 600 million- under a billion mainly due to the cost of materials and labour being relatively cheaper than a few years ago.

There is a map of the entire N17/N18/tuam bypass scheme here on page 2:
Second PPP Roads Programme

Amtmann · 07-05-2009 3:30pm

Just out of curiosity, how would people feel about giving the entire Atlantic Corridor, or at least the bit between Tuam and Cork, a single (new) route number?

KevR · 07-05-2009 3:45pm

I'd be very much in favour of it.

It doesn't make much sense to me having different numbers.

It's particularly annoying that the M17/18 (Gort-Tuam) will be numbered seperately. Why does the route number have to change when it crosses the M6 at Rathmorrissey? The existing N17 + 18 are a different case entirely and need seperate numbers, the new motorway will not.

Stupido · 07-05-2009 4:02pm

I agree!

Call the one road the M20. Makes sense.

Also if the Leinster orbital is ever built, it shoul be an extension of the M9 IMO:)

Tech3 · 07-05-2009 4:36pm

KevR wrote: »

It's particularly annoying that the M17/18 (Gort-Tuam) will be numbered seperately. Why does the route number have to change when it crosses the M6 at Rathmorrissey? The existing N17 + 18 are a different case entirely and need seperate numbers, the new motorway will not.

I agree its annoying the scheme is called the N17/18 gort to tuam, it should be one route number preferably the N18.

If it was to be one route from Tuam to Cork, phase 2 of the N7 will have to be renumbered also but I think the N20 is ok as it is. I hope the current N17 from Tuam to Galway is not redesignated a regional road as the traffic numbers will be still high even when the new motorway is constructed.

KevR · 07-05-2009 5:14pm

tech2 wrote: »

I hope the current N17 from Tuam to Galway is not redesignated a regional road as the traffic numbers will be still high even when the new motorway is constructed.

Agree. The M17/18 scheme should be entirely numbered M18. They can redesignate the old N18 and reduce the speed limit. But they shouldn't redesignate the current N17 or reduce the speed limit.

BluntGuy · 07-05-2009 6:41pm

Hmmm... between Tuam and Cork one number? If they're going to do that, they may as well go the whole way and call the entire thing up until the north the N20/M20.

I think the M18 should extend to Tuam, but I'm happy with the M20 as it is (between Cork-Limerick). It's quite clear and simple. I do think that they could redesignate the Limerick Tunnel from the M20 junction as N18 (or hopefully M18) one day - just so the journey from Cork-Galway doesn't have a piece of N7 in it.

Sponge Bob · 07-05-2009 10:03pm

Furet wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, how would people feel about giving the entire Atlantic Corridor, or at least the bit between Tuam and Cork, a single (new) route number?

Dont be a div , Galway is absolutely entitled to its 3 motorways and does not want to share road numbers with Cork

Chris_533976 · 07-05-2009 10:31pm

Call it the DOOOR

KevR · 08-05-2009 10:12am

BluntGuy wrote: »

Hmmm... between Tuam and Cork one number? If they're going to do that, they may as well go the whole way and call the entire thing up until the north the N20/M20.

I think the M18 should extend to Tuam, but I'm happy with the M20 as it is (between Cork-Limerick). It's quite clear and simple. I do think that they could redesignate the Limerick Tunnel from the M20 junction as N18 (or hopefully M18) one day - just so the journey from Cork-Galway doesn't have a piece of N7 in it.

I'd be happy also with just M/N18 and M20.

As it will stand, we'll have the M17, M/N18, N7, and M20 between Tuam and Cork. Would make a lot more sense to re-number the M17 and N7.

Carawaystick · 08-05-2009 1:32pm

KevR wrote: »

I'd be happy also with just M/N18 and M20.

As it will stand, we'll have the M17, M/N18, N7, and M20 between Tuam and Cork. Would make a lot more sense to re-number the M17 and N7.

Tuam's hardly a main destination for people leaving Cork though...
And the N17 goes on to Colooney just outside Sligo. Renumbering the route would break the numbering scheme for primary routes also.

I don't see why changing route numbers would be an issue. If you were to go down the west of France, from Rennes to Bordeaux via Nantes, you'd go on the N137, A/N844, A83 and A10. But Nantes would be clearly signed from Rennes and Bordeaux would be clearly signed from North of Nantes.
Here, Limerick would be signed on the M17 and I'd imagine Cork would be signed from the Clare side of Limerick.
If the destinations (final or intermediate) are clearly signed, then it doesn't make much difference - unless you're british and road number is the be al and end all.

KevR · 08-05-2009 2:31pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Tuam's hardly a main destination for people leaving Cork though...
And the N17 goes on to Colooney just outside Sligo. Renumbering the route would break the numbering scheme for primary routes also.

I don't see why changing route numbers would be an issue. If you were to go down the west of France, from Rennes to Bordeaux via Nantes, you'd go on the N137, A/N844, A83 and A10. But Nantes would be clearly signed from Rennes and Bordeaux would be clearly signed from North of Nantes.
Here, Limerick would be signed on the M17 and I'd imagine Cork would be signed from the Clare side of Limerick.
If the destinations (final or intermediate) are clearly signed, then it doesn't make much difference - unless you're british and road number is the be al and end all.

I know Tuam isn't the main destination for people leaving Cork.

Just say if it was a single route number (e.g - M20) from Cork to Tuam; I would have signage along these sort of lines:

Leaving Cork:
Limerick
Intermediate towns

After Limerick:
Galway
Gort
Ennis
Shannon (N19)

After Galway (M6 Rathmorrisey crossover):
Sligo (N17)
Intermediate towns
Tuam

Changing route numbers isn't a massive issue because, as you said, the destination will be signed but I think it would make sense to simplify things and only use 1 or 2 route numbers on the Atlantic Corridor.

I think it makes sense to have the M17 as M18. If you're on the M18 and going to Sligo you will join the N17 (Galway to Sligo road) at Tuam. [I wouldn't renumber the existing N17 between Tuam and Sligo unless a new motorway was ever built]. The N17 from Tuam to Galway could stay as the N17 and not be redesignated as some R road.

I wonder if the Saw Doctors will release a remake of their N17 song called M17 or R649?

Carawaystick · 09-05-2009 12:19am

KevR wrote: »

I think it makes sense to have the M17 as M18. If you're on the M18 and going to Sligo you will join the N17 (Galway to Sligo road) at Tuam. [I wouldn't renumber the existing N17 between Tuam and Sligo unless a new motorway was ever built]. The N17 from Tuam to Galway could stay as the N17 and not be redesignated as some R road.

I don't think here you can have a N and M road at the same time. All the Motorways are actually N routes in Law. - The N1 Route is the N1 from Dublin to the M1 and M1 on to Ballymascanlon and then N1 again til the Armagh border.

Again I'd say Route number consistancy is onlhy important if you folllow the briish scheme of things. France and a lot of the rest of Europe use a destination system like here- I think it's more important to know where you're going and where you'll be going past to get there...
I'm used to the French/continental system and always found the british system odd.

I think the <intermediate signage> we use here is not up to scratch. On the M6 for example, at the M6/N52 junction at Kilbeggan for Tullamore, there is no signage for Mullinagar or the N52 north to continue along the mainline ( heading east). Same story going west at Tyrrellspass. In France all junctions would have an overhead gantry showing about 3 destination on the mainline and whatever destinations on the exit route.
like this - remembering they drive on the right.
http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/TEP1852.jpg

This is the French official signage for direction signs:
http://www1.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr/signaux/famille.asp?sFamille=12&sSFamille=0

Tech3 · 09-05-2009 8:40am

I dont really mind what route numbers are given but I DO think that the current N17 shouldnt be downgraded to a regional road. It will still carry high amounts of traffic daily.

Chris_533976 · 09-05-2009 10:31am

All of it will be still stuck in Claregalway anyway so a drop in speed limit to 80 wont make a difference.

Tech3 · 09-05-2009 1:22pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

All of it will be still stuck in Claregalway anyway so a drop in speed limit to 80 wont make a difference.

There should be no through traffic from the current N18 when its built and take away the traffic lights. That will reduce the congestion but not much

Chris_533976 · 09-05-2009 2:25pm

Theres hardly any through traffic as it is, most of it is commuters working in Galway.

Tech3 · 09-05-2009 5:18pm

I cant see it getting a bypass for long time now the way our countries finances are going. Are commuters from Galway really going to drive to Athenry and up to Tuma every day? I cant see it. The NRA made a pure mess of the route for the N17/N18 PPP in the first place. I bet the future road wont even see 15,000 vehicles a day.

Chris_533976 · 09-05-2009 5:56pm

Limerick to Rathmorissey will be busy enough, but Rathmorrisey to start of Tuam bypass will be pretty dead.

Tuam bypass part of it will be used tho.

Tech3 · 09-05-2009 6:16pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Rathmorrisey to start of Tuam bypass will be pretty dead.

Yep sorry meant to say the M17 section. I will be one of the very few to use it!! I can also see many drivers pulling off at that grade seperated junction for the old n18 if they are driving to Galway City instead of heading to rathmorissey and taking the M6.

Cian R · 10-05-2009 9:52pm

The N17 would be redesignated as the N63 I think because thats what usually happens. The N63 doesnt go all the way to Tuam but it branches off after Claregalway

Zoney · 10-05-2009 10:16pm

tech2 wrote: »

I dont really mind what route numbers are given but I DO think that the current N17 shouldnt be downgraded to a regional road. It will still carry high amounts of traffic daily.

Why would that preclude it becoming a regional road? Regional roads are a very important part of our route network, and many of them are very heavily used, especially around cities or indeed in cities (often forming arterial routes).

The road certainly wouldn't merit being a "national route" in a literal sense after bypass.

Now I do however make the point that our regional roads (and indeed national secondary roads) should all be kept to a minimum regular standard across the state. A road being bypassed and made an R road should not be an indicator that it will never be touched again - especially in the cases where a lot of local traffic uses them (as indeed R roads are for - local traffic).

Tech3 · 10-05-2009 10:24pm

Zoney wrote: »

Why would that preclude it becoming a regional road? Regional roads are a very important part of our route network, and many of them are very heavily used, especially around cities or indeed in cities (often forming arterial routes).

The road certainly wouldn't merit being a "national route" in a literal sense after bypass.

Now I do however make the point that our regional roads (and indeed national secondary roads) should all be kept to a minimum regular standard across the state. A road being bypassed and made an R road should not be an indicator that it will never be touched again - especially in the cases where a lot of local traffic uses them (as indeed R roads are for - local traffic).

Dont think Ive ever disagreed with you Zoney but I have to on this one. A regional may carry alot of excessive traffic around a city but its different for a long distance commute. The new road wont be used heavily by Galway-Tuam commuters. I'll be satisfied if its only downgraded to a secondary road but any futher wouldnt be a good idea.

Whats being bypassed? Claregalway is certainly not being bypassed.

KevR · 11-05-2009 9:43am

tech2 wrote: »

Are commuters from Galway really going to drive to Athenry and up to Tuma every day? I cant see it.

For some people, depending on where they're working in Galway, driving to Tuam via Rathmorrissey will be a pretty good option on the way home in the evenings because there will be a left turn slip onto the M6 from the existing N6 DC.

Will be an aweful option for those people in the mornings because they'll have to queue for the RAB at Doughiska with all commuter traffic and long distance traffic from the M6 and M18.

The lack of a Galway Bypass and the at-grade junction at Doughiska will have a negative impact on on M17 traffic levels, therefore the N17 and Claregalway will still continue to be badly congested.

Tech3 · 11-05-2009 9:53pm

KevR wrote: »

For some people, depending on where they're working in Galway, driving to Tuam via Rathmorrissey will be a pretty good option on the way home in the evenings because there will be a left turn slip onto the M6 from the existing N6 DC.

Will be an aweful option for those people in the mornings because they'll have to queue for the RAB at Doughiska with all commuter traffic and long distance traffic from the M6 and M18.

The lack of a Galway Bypass and the at-grade junction at Doughiska will have a negative impact on on M17 traffic levels, therefore the N17 and Claregalway will still continue to be badly congested.

I think having to travel and extra 20km to get to Tuam from Galway will have an effect on the amount of commuters using the M17.

But working it out it would be roughly

- 50 km via the M17 at 120km/hr = 25min
- 30 km current N17 at 100km/hr = 18min

Okay but that will never be acurate at peak times. Claregalway will add another 10-20 mins so maybe the M17 will be used heavily during peak hours.

KevR · 12-05-2009 9:37am

Also, on the N17 you would be very lucky to average 100kmh off-peak, never mind at peak times. You nearly always get caught behind a truck, tractor, bus or slow car for some stretch or another. I find my average speed is often closer to 80kmh than 100kmh.

I think, depending on where you're starting your journey in Galway, the M17 will be a very good option for getting to Tuam. But it won't be a great option for Tuam to Galway traffic, particularly during morning peak, because the roundabout at Doughiska.

rekrow · 13-05-2009 11:56am

tech2 wrote: »

I think having to travel and extra 20km to get to Tuam from Galway will have an effect on the amount of commuters using the M17.

But working it out it would be roughly

- 50 km via the M17 at 120km/hr = 25min
- 30 km current N17 at 100km/hr = 18min

Okay but that will never be acurate at peak times. Claregalway will add another 10-20 mins so maybe the M17 will be used heavily during peak hours.

Galway county council are doing their bit to make the M17 route more viable. The new bus corridor has reduced about 5 km of the N17 route to 50kmph. I do the Claregalway/Galway run everyday and have a few comments probably a bit off topic for Ennis to Galway thread, but valid I think in the Atlantic corridor context. 1: According to the NRA traffic counters 33% of the traffic going through claregalway doesn't reach the traffic counter 7kms North of Claregalway.So will the M17 even be a viable route for that traffic. 2: The 10-20 min delays in Claregalway arent as common as they used to be. Not sure if this is due to the traffic lights or the recession taking users off the road. One thing for sure. It is not due to the excessive use of the white elephant bus lanes. The 5 or so buses that pass me every evening can hardly be making an impact in the rush hour traffic. To be honest I think the Rathmorrisey route for the M17 is a bit of a red herring now.

Sponge Bob · 17-05-2009 11:53am

From this weeks trib on the Gort Tuam PPP contract.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/7488-developers-clamour-%E2%82%AC500-million-ppp-contract

It has been learned by The Connacht Tribune that at least six consortia of builders and financial institutions have responded to the expressions of interest in the project which were sought by the National Roads Authority.

And it is expected that an intensive dialogue process will commence within the next few weeks with representatives from the interested parties with a view to shortlisting the applicants
before the end of the year.

It is also understood that the majority of those who expressed an interest in this huge undertaking are from overseas where access to finance for such significant roads projects is easier to acquire than it is in this country at the moment.

My my , I am surprised that there were 6 consortia and not at all surprised that very few comprise significant interests of Irish companies or Irish banks.

Spanish and Portugese I would suspect . Sure no matter, they will hire loats of locals to drive them diggers .

Chris_533976 · 17-05-2009 1:14pm

Hey if it gets this thing moving then all the better. There was loads of interest in this

AFAIK they're still looking for a 2011 start with a 2013 road opening.

Tech3 · 17-05-2009 1:50pm

The sunday business post has a good article on it. Initially it is expected to cost 500million by the NRA which wasnt far off my expected cost. It has received bids from here and abroad.

Tech3 · 17-05-2009 2:04pm

The National Roads Authority (NRA) has recieved bids from six consortiums for the construction of one of the country's largest single road projects.
The 58-kilometre dual carriageway for Gort to Tuam in Co Galway is expected to cost in the region of 500 million and the winning contract to build it will be announced in November. Construction will not start until autumn next year.

There has been "significant interest" from Irish and foreign companies in the contract, accodrding to NRA spokesman Sean O' Neill.
The road - which will be renamed the M17 on completion - will bypass the town of Tuam. A seperate Tuam to Claremorris road project is in the planning stage.

The bids from six consortiums are currently being examined in the pre-qualification stage, and the shortlist next month will be announced. A drop of a least 20 per cent in land values and raw materials is expected to achieve significant cost savings for the bidders.

O'Neill said that, given its size and the slowdown in infrastructure projects across Europe, the NRA was pleased with the response. "The authority still has large projects ongoing and has a continued commitment to these," he said. "In todays environment, there is great value to be had for the taxpayer, because of a highly competitive environment".

Hardly unexpected but I guess pension funds will be provided for this. The only question is why next autumn?

Chris_533976 · 17-05-2009 2:25pm

Land values arent the big deal in this as Gort - Athenry was CPOed right at the peak

Edit: Cos these are only prequalification tenders. The actual tender comes soon. But PPPs are strange things, never get going as quickly as normal ones.

Tech3 · 17-05-2009 3:12pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Land values arent the big deal in this as Gort - Athenry was CPOed right at the peak

Edit: Cos these are only prequalification tenders. The actual tender comes soon. But PPPs are strange things, never get going as quickly as normal ones.

Thought it might be a bit quicker if pension funds would be used to finance it(not certain yet but..) as they dont have to wait to set a timeline for pending funding request after the contractor is announced. Yeah would really like to see a start on this very soon IF it does ever start construction!!!

Chris_533976 · 17-05-2009 3:47pm

Nah this is definately PPP funded now so AFAIK pension funds wouldnt be use to fund it as it wont be a government project. I **guess** that the pension funds would go into Interconnector, Metro North etc.

spacetweek · 18-05-2009 5:31pm

If they build Rathmorrissey as a roundabout then we truly, truly do not understand how to build road infrastructure in this country.

Chris_533976 · 18-05-2009 5:39pm

Rathmorrisey is still a roundabout and yes in NRA speak a three level stack is a "free-flow" junction.

Tech3 · 19-05-2009 8:34am

Judging by the amount of consortium bids for this project a similar if not even more interest will be had in the future M20. A huge project which will tempt alot of foreign consortiums. How reliable these consortiums are, will be examined well I would imagine. Also no toll on the road is a huge plus. I guess the main thing now is that the tenders come in below expected cost and we should see this scheme going ahead easily.

M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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