Documenting Ireland's cycle lanes

Blowfish · 01-10-2010 1:30pm

This should definitely be added to the list as it still has the incredibly stupid/dangerous design where the track crosses the lane perpendicularly at the roundabouts exits.

-Chris- · 01-10-2010 2:21pm

Is that a bike lane or just a re-laying of tarmac because of other works or whatever.

Blowfish · 01-10-2010 2:26pm

It's a bike lane that they haven't maintained, so the red stuff has worn off.

Raam · 01-10-2010 2:28pm

buffalo wrote: »

Possibly, but I don't seem any other evidence for it.

The curb is dipped so it must have been an access point for something in the past.

buffalo · 01-10-2010 3:59pm

Raam wrote: »

The curb is dipped so it must have been an access point for something in the past.

Good spot!

tomasrojo · 01-10-2010 9:59pm

Blowfish wrote: »

This should definitely be added to the list as it still has the incredibly stupid/dangerous design where the track crosses the lane perpendicularly at the roundabouts exits.

That is really dangerous.

monument · 03-10-2010 1:19pm

On the N1 coming into the south of Drogheda:

Not only is this crazy design, it's all over the place. on-road and shared use one way and off-road the other.

Cycle lanes start on the approach to the first roundabout

...at the entrance to the roundabout its marked in a lane where there's no room for a car and bicycle

exits the first roundabout in the same way, marked in a lane with no room... (also note here the cyclist unfriendly barriers)

enters the second roundabout in the same way

then a none-legal shared use footpath starts after the roundabout

...and ends behind a barrier and on front of grass, with no ramp off

In the opposite direction:

It starts with an off-road cycle track...

...then priority is taken away from cyclists with three toucan crossings to cross

And at the roundabout priority is also taken away... this does not look too safe of a crossing

Same thing at the other roundabout.

Then at the end cyclists are dumped on to the road at a near 90 degree angle

Chips Lovell · 03-10-2010 3:12pm

Thread title changed at OP's request

Grudaire · 03-10-2010 11:12pm

There is a public consultation on the Quality Bus Corridor on the Navan Road. This will affect the cycle lanes as they will be amalgamated into the Bus Lanes. The link is below in case anyone is interested:

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/QBNProjectOffice/Pages/PublicConsultation.aspx

monument · 04-10-2010 12:25am

Cliste wrote: »

There is a public consultation on the Quality Bus Corridor on the Navan Road. This will affect the cycle lanes as they will be amalgamated into the Bus Lanes. The link is below in case anyone is interested:

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/QBNProjectOffice/Pages/PublicConsultation.aspx

There's no cross-sections showing widths as the QBN usually have.

It's ok for anybody willing and able to take the bus lane (ie cycle in / near the middle of it) but it's a down grade for cyclists really.

Cabaal · 04-10-2010 8:03am

Lads I'd be warry of using Google Maps for case examples given that the data is no up-to-date and "may" have changed since google took those photos

tomasrojo · 04-10-2010 5:52pm

monument wrote: »

There's no cross-sections showing widths as the QBN usually have.

It's ok for anybody willing and able to take the bus lane (ie cycle in / near the middle of it) but it's a down grade for cyclists really.

This is wildly optimistic, but perhaps it'll be a very wide bus lane? I'd regard that as considerably better than a standard bus lane and a segregated cycle lane, since it makes it easy to position yourself at junctions and there is room for a bus or taxi to overtake you without changing lanes, and also room for you to overtake them without changing lanes.

DirkVoodoo · 04-10-2010 6:01pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Lads I'd be warry of using Google Maps for case examples given that the data is no up-to-date and "may" have changed since google took those photos

I think most examples would be taken from routes that people commute regularly, in which case they can confirm whether or not the path is still in the condition as seen on street view.

monument · 04-10-2010 6:34pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Lads I'd be warry of using Google Maps for case examples given that the data is no up-to-date and "may" have changed since google took those photos

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I think most examples would be taken from routes that people commute regularly, in which case they can confirm whether or not the path is still in the condition as seen on street view.

I'd be more worried about keeping a record of how bad things are now.

If things get fixed, that's great, and as as DirkVoodoo says one of use are likely to see the change if it's on our commuting route etc. In areas where one of us don't pass regularly, the same problem applies to talking still photos (but at least in those cases we try to date them.

I suppose if any local authority is worried about their image then there's nothing stopping them from coming on here and letting us know of changes.

tomasrojo wrote: »

This is wildly optimistic, but perhaps it'll be a very wide bus lane? I'd regard that as considerably better than a standard bus lane and a segregated cycle lane, since it makes it easy to position yourself at junctions and there is room for a bus or taxi to overtake you without changing lanes, and also room for you to overtake them without changing lanes.

Looking at the drawing some sections seem to be wide enough but most of the bus lanes do not seem to be wide enough for a bus to pass a cyclist within the bus lane.

funnights74 · 04-10-2010 8:08pm

Down here in Cork folks what few lanes there are

are not maintained, surprise, surprise, completely broken up, and like cycling on gravel, simply downright dangerous!!!

monument · 31-10-2010 12:06am

I've complied some of the most common problems with Dublin's cycle lanes, here: http://dublinobserver.com/2010/10/cycle-lane-highlights-in-dublin/

Am I missing anything?

Also -- between seeing them and looking at Street View there's a huge amount of messed up cycle lanes around the north of Finglas and in the new develoment between Finglas and Poppintree. Some crazy stuff.

tomasrojo · 31-10-2010 2:21am

I found this via the Cyclist.ie page.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme1/researchreport/pdf/rswp17.pdf

I liked this section. Quite a pithy summary.

From the cyclist’s perspective, inadequate cycle facilities can diminish the legitimacy of bicycles on the road even further without actually providing a viable alternative.

Cycling facilities can also make the road-sharing problem worse if they create additional confusion about where cyclists and drivers are meant to go.

The key issues are:
• infrastructure that is too complex and needs to be decoded by the user;
• a failure to communicate to people how to use innovative infrastructure; and
• a lack of consistency from one place to the next.

tomasrojo · 31-10-2010 2:34am

This quote is quite good too.

the problem of road sharing – what we might call (at the risk of stereotyping drivers) a ‘driver logic’:
1. Bikes are anomalous and really do not belong on the road.
2. They should be given somewhere else to go.
3. Having been given somewhere else, they should not then be on the road.
4. Nothing should be taken away from drivers in the process.

From the cycling perspective, ‘driver logic’ presents a number of clear problems. The one which received most attention in our workshops was that the ‘somewhere else to go’ is frequently inadequate. We heard plenty of examples of cycle lanes which:
• ended suddenly, leaving the cyclist having to rejoin traffic;
• were punctuated by drains and manhole covers, or were poorly maintained;
• required the cyclist to stop all the time, for example a pavement cycle track crossing side roads; and
• were infringed on by traffic or were used to park cars.

tomasrojo · 31-10-2010 2:41am

This bit about helmets is good too (off-topic):

people are not, in general, making calculations about how to maximise their safety, but instead are just looking for something to give them peace of mind.

Quite a nice study that overall.

n-dawg · 31-10-2010 12:59pm

-Chris- wrote: »

-I finally got to see the infamous cone (pic 51)

The cone has now become 3 cones...

mgmt · 03-11-2010 7:14pm

This is in the Phoenix Park. This might not look bad, but it is a very sharp angle and very easy to slip.

coolbeans · 03-11-2010 9:10pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

This bit about helmets is good too (off-topic):

Quite a nice study that overall.

That quote really does sum up common attitudes towards helmets and cycle safety nicely. It seems to me that as long as they have a helmet many cyclists really don't see the need for lights at night because of course the helmet makes it all OK. The really safe cyclists have both a helmet and a dirty looking Zoe Developments "hi-vis" jacket from circa 2007 flapping in the wind. Gimme a good set of lights and remove the mandatory cycle lane law and I'll feel much safer than the above mentioned ninjas.

tomasrojo · 02-12-2010 3:35pm

Interesting general comments from Active Transport in the UK, via cyclist.ie:

http://www.cyclist.ie/2010/12/issue-of-cycle-friendly-infrastructure-presents-a-significant-dilemma/

In particular, there is concern that badly designed segregated provision will make cycling inconvenient and unsafe, especially by loss of priority at junctions. Past experience shows that this does not encourage new cyclists but it discourages existing cyclists.

However, segregated provision is wanted by a large proportion of those who are open to persuasion to take up cycling, but have little, if any, personal experience of cycling. This presents a fundamental dilemma. Should public health professionals accept that it is easier to work with the myth and develop segregated facilities in order to encourage people to cycle and hence gain the health benefits? Or should they correct the myth through favourable messages about cycle training, well-equipped road bikes and the directness of the existing road network?

I realise that people who have extensive experience may or may not agree about the "myth" of segregated facilities, but I think we can all agree what segregated facilties are not a success here.

BostonB · 02-12-2010 3:53pm

Most if not all the segregated facilities are very badly designed here. So I have no experience of good facilities to base any judgement. Saying bad facilities don't work doesn't seem to add any value to the debate.

The only value I've seen is on busy roads, where it keeps a lane free, where otherwise the cars would be jammed so tight theres no room to get through on the bike. Thats pretty rare though, as most traffic is not barred from using most cycle lanes, or parking in it. It works on the canal though.

A lot of junctions in Ireland are badly designed even for cars, never mind bicycles.

tomasrojo · 02-12-2010 5:19pm

Part of the argument is that segregated facilities in general (including ones built according to current best practices) are not actually safer than using the road in general -- mostly because of collisions at junctions. They, it has been argued, just feel safer.

It is clear that in the European context the countries with the most segregated infrastructure have the best safety records, but even there the roads are safer than the facilities. But if the facilties encourage more cyclists, every cyclist is safer, whether on road or on the facilities.

So the dilemma is -- if you accept that segregated facilities are not safer -- whether you embark on a programme of building those facilities so that peope who might cycle will feel safer -- incorrectly, we're assuming for the sake of this argument. Without the facilities, the tyro or nervous person will never cycle, it is argued on one side.

The other question is whether you can encourage large numbers of cyclists without segregated infrastructure, by methods listed in that article, and if so, whether that would be the better approach.

So, it's not quite as trivial as saying that bad infrastructure is bad.

tomasrojo · 02-12-2010 5:21pm

Good point about the canal. Funnily enough, there's nothing really to stop them encroaching on the cycle lane. It's good that the car lane and bike lane combined is too narrow to accommodate two lanes of cars, which certainly helps, but cars do tend to keep all four wheels out, which is very handy.

cyclopath2001 · 02-12-2010 6:31pm

mgmt wrote: »

This is in the Phoenix Park. This might not look bad, but it is a very sharp angle and very easy to slip.

It looks a bit mixed up. Is it bi-directional? The 'Stop' marking suggests this If so, is has to be wider and with a dviding line between the opposing flows. Not sure if it is actually necessary as the road is wide and has a low speed limit.

davearthurs · 02-12-2010 6:46pm

I think it is important to realise that the "strategy" of the Council is not to provide practical regularly used usable cycle lanes but really to meet with EU quota's on length of cycle lane coverage in the city more than anything else.

They are currently spending a fortune on a cycle lane on the canal that will rarely be used and was never in fact needed.

What is needed is safe routes into and around the centre not these sideline routes that go nowhere and serve no-one. and are on spacious roads with no car traffic anyway.

They are even unable to rule on simple routes that involve next to no building but are among some of the most heavily used routes in the City - for example around Stephen's Green, inabilty to cycle to Rathmines directly (by Bleeding Horse Pub) without going circuitous routes, danger of Westmoreland street route ignored etc.,

BostonB · 02-12-2010 11:09pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Good point about the canal. Funnily enough, there's nothing really to stop them encroaching on the cycle lane. It's good that the car lane and bike lane combined is too narrow to accommodate two lanes of cars, which certainly helps, but cars do tend to keep all four wheels out, which is very handy.

They used to fit two lines of cars especially at junctions before the cycle lanes went in. Further down at Kilmainhan, there isn't room either and they just squeeze together. No room for a bike, or a sheet of paper tbh. The difference there is its not painted red and its a dashed line, not a solid line. I think it makes a difference. I appreciate not all agree. That my opinion of my commuting route. I'm not a very experience cyclist though. So its probably its very different on other routes.

BostonB · 02-12-2010 11:30pm

The photo of the Phoenix park doesn't capture the genius of that interchange...

Hope pics aren't too big...

and from the other side...

Documenting Ireland's cycle lanes

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