[rich.d.berry]

Originally Posted by blatantrereg

Why do you link to some inane definition of a silly term instead of providing sources for your claims?

Because I made a lot of claims and I was not going to pick and choose which to support with links and therefore give them more prominence. It is the weight of the sum of the evidence, more than the individual claims, that I wished to convey. Also, I spent long enough just compiling that reply without having to cross reference everything.

In conclusion I'd like to say that I have gained a lot of respect for you and your willingness to engage in meaningful debate, and I can honestly say that I understand and respect your viewpoint, despite our differences. I hope that it is becoming mutual.

[Logical Fallacy]

Originally Posted by blatantrereg

Personally I found that my digestion improved a great deal when I switched to a vegetarian diet. It was pretty much my normal state to have stomach upset before. Now I only get one if there is aspecific cause of it. I can eat pizza, soft drinks, sweets - sugary food, salty food, fatty food - pretty much anything and my digestive system stays happy.

Another surprising and welcome effect of it was on my smell. Before I would need to shower very often to avoid BO. Now I dont. There's published research on the link between body odour and meat consumption incidentally. I know from personal experience that taste is effected too tbh.

If i ate any of those foods (pizza, soft drinks etc) I would be in agony to be honest. I tried to stop eating meat but i felt absolutely terrible. I had no energy, was constantly sick...I have issues with iron and zinc levels so red meat and me are just a perfect match. When I eat red meat once a day i feel great, when i stop i feel like ****.

There are certain vegetables that I also feel much better when i eat - carrots, sweetcorn, peas, onions, garlic...daily must haves. Mushrooms completely **** up my system...which is harsh as i have always loved mushrooms.

BO wise, ever since i sorted out all the right foods from the wrong foods for me I don't smell like anything, which kind of freaks me out.

Interesting that you should mention taste - two things i have noticed is that my sense of smell now is through the roof and another is that foods i used to love, even some meats, now taste horrible to me.

I can't eat bacon or pork or any kind anymore, it just tastes rank but turkey bacon is the tastiest thing in the world to me.

I think people just need to spend more time paying careful attention to what they eat and how it actually makes them feel I suppose.

Can't eat dairy at all...once again a shame as i love cheese.

Why do you link to some inane definition of a silly term instead of providing sources for your claims? The UN are pushing to reduce meat consumption because of the environmental impact. That's a fact - not me selectively editing statistics. That quote is from the UN report on the matter. Why would the UN lie or provide recommendations that are contrary to what would be effective?

The last part is interesting, look up the Irish governments guidelines on a healthy diet (which they claim is grain heavy) then look at who was on that board of decision makers and their connections to the grain industry.

As a plan, it was ripped to pieces on the Health forum here by people who know what they are talking about and the connections were all exposed for people to see.

People push agendas that benefit them and disguise them as something else. Not saying it is the case with the UN...simply pointing out that it happens and it has happened here.

[--Kaiser--]

Originally Posted by Logical Fallacy

BO wise, ever since i sorted out all the right foods from the wrong foods for me I don't smell like anything, which kind of freaks me out.

Interesting that you should mention taste - two things i have noticed is that my sense of smell now is through the roof and another is that foods i used to love, even some meats, now taste horrible to me.

I can't eat bacon or pork or any kind anymore, it just tastes rank but turkey bacon is the tastiest thing in the world to me.

Strange....since I gave up grains my sense of smell has also improved greatly (it was appalling).
Hasn't affected my love for bacon thought!

[RussellTuring]

So any serious responses to this then?

Originally Posted by rich.d.berry

I think that the thing that irritates me most in the "is it ethical to kill animals for food" debate is how many people believe that crop farming has no animal casualties.

I don't think anyone who's actually informed about this believes such a thing. I certainly don't and I've never met another veggie who said they believed that. I'm sure they exist, but it's hardly representative of the opposition.

The thing you conveniently don't mention, whether that's purposeful or because you just don't know, is that most of that crop farming is to feed animals. This, apart from the horror of the billions of animals killed every year so we can eat their flesh, is one of my prime motivations for avoiding meat so please don't try to insinuate that we can only have these opinions if we lack information.

Many rabbits, hedgehogs, shrews, harvest mice etc. die when the field is ploughed. Many birds lose there nesting sites when woodland is cleared for agriculture, killing off entire generations. Many birds die from pesticides and from deliberate poisoning.

And that will continue to happen whether or not people eat meat. However, if we stopped eating so much meat we wouldn't have to produce as many crops and hence there would be fewer animals killed altogether, as well as having a surplus of crops that we could feed to the countless humans who could do with them. It's entirely possible for humans to thrive on an animal0free diet. I challenge you to live without eating plants.

Also, what incentive would there be to keep cattle, pigs and sheep (wool price has collapsed) if there is no demand for meat or dairy.

None. That's the point.

Fox numbers in England are in decline now that fox hunting is banned because farmers have no financial incentive to keep them on their land so they are treated as vermin and trapped, shot and poisoned.

The foxes are considered vermin only because they try to eat the same animals that the farmers sell. If you really have that much concern for foxes then tell people to stop shooting them. Although it's a red herring since we're not talking about the legitimacy of fox hunting.

This blinkered view that "if everyone became vegetarians then the world would be a better place and all animals would live in peace and harmony" needs to be thoroughly debunked.

I don't think it does since the only people I ever hear spout this are meat-eaters setting up a straw man.

On the other hand, continued pressure needs to be brought to bear to keep improving the conditions in which animals are kept and the methods of slaughter. There is still a lot of stress that the animals suffer in abattoirs because of the way they're moved and because of the smell of blood and entrails. Studies indicate that abattoirs with large storage yards which allow animals to acclimatise before slaughter and with more efficient waste disposal systems not only reduce stress in animals but produce better quality meat as well. They are also better places to work.

I have been to the facility in Kildare Town and have seen it in operation. They have no longer term storage pens. Animals have to be slaughtered the day they're shipped in, often requiring workers to work late and causing the process to be rushed, resulting in additional stress and injury in both animals and staff. Staff turnover is high with many foreign workers with poor English. Often the workers are not adequately competent in the handling of the animals and equipment.

An even easier way to avoid all of this would be to discontinue farming, killing and eating them.

[ScumLord]

Originally Posted by blatantrereg

It's more efficient to grow plants and eat them, than to grow plants to feed to animals and then eat them.

WE don't really do that in Ireland. We do supplement their diet with feed but for the most part they're eating grass that's growing there anyway and in winter they eat silage.

Irish farmers are being punished and accused of the actions of intensive American farms. Bovine production has been going on in Ireland for thousands of years. There is a balance there and it actually suits Irish farmers to be organic. It's just easier here the country is ideal for livestock raising. If anything it's more suited to livestock raring as it's harder for us to produce crops in a lot of the country.

[Paddycrumlinman]

Evolution :- Not how smart or fit you are its how adaptable to change you are. Simples.

[blatantrereg]

Originally Posted by El_Dangeroso

The fact that certain nutrient deficiencies are more common in vegetarians leads me to think that on average, most vegetarians are not meeting those needs.

Didn't see that until Russell Turing quoted it. That's a common misconception, and a pretty bad one. If you look at actual research instead of assumption, you'll see that vegetarians are not more likely to be deficient in iron or zinc - or any other nutrient in meat.

The only good thing you might miss out on in food by being vegetarian is certain types of beneficial omega 3s in fish oil. There are plenty of excellent vegetable sources of omega 3s - but they are different specific fats, and from the perspective of health alone, it would be optimal to consume the ones in fish too. That is probably why people who eat fish but no meat are slightly healthier, taken as a group than vegetarians. Both groups are significantly healthier than meat eaters.

If you chose to become vegan, then you probably would need to supplement to get enough vitamin B12.

That is a complete list of the nutrients you might expect to miss in your normal diet as a result of becoming vegan or vegetarian.

that said I would recommend everybody (dedicated beef eaters included) familiarise themselves with good sources of iron, and how to maximise its absorption. It's the single most common nutritional deficiency in both meat eaters and vegetarians, and you won't get enough of it from meat sources alone, unless you guzzle an awful lot of things like lamb's liver, and consume a very high level of cholesterol in the process.