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"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"
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I have never heard so much mis-placed whinging in all my life!!!!
Ye all seem to gleefully forget that there are many eminently qualified surgeons who are Creationists ... and it has been my experience that most modern doctors are handsomly paid for their services ... and therefore charity or gratitude don't enter the equation.
They are also quite limited in both their abilities and the outcomes of their medical practices ... as the morgues in every hospital testify!!!!
... and before ye all 'lose the run of yourselves' ... and start claiming that Evolution is God's gift to Humanity, or Medicine or whatever ... please listen to these sobering words from Evolutionist Prof Gerry Coyne on the matter (emphasis mine):-
Prof Jerry Coyne Professor of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago
"In science's pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. For evolutionary biology is a historical science, laden with history's inevitable imponderables. We evolutionary biologists cannot generate a Cretaceous Park to observe exactly what killed the dinosaurs; and, unlike "harder" scientists, we usually cannot resolve issues with a simple experiment, such as adding tube A to tube B and noting the color of the mixture." Of Vice and Men The New Republic April 3 2000 p.27
"Truth be told, evolution hasn’t yielded many practical or commercial benefits. Yes, bacteria evolve drug resistance, and yes, we must take countermeasures, but beyond that there is not much to say. Evolution cannot help us predict what new vaccines to manufacture because microbes evolve unpredictably. But hasn’t evolution helped guide animal and plant breeding? Not very much. Most improvement in crop plants and animals occurred long before we knew anything about evolution, and came about by people following the genetic principle of ‘like begets like’. Even now, as its practitioners admit, the field of quantitative genetics has been of little value in helping improve varieties. Future advances will almost certainly come from transgenics, which is not based on evolution at all." Nature August 31 2006 p.984
wow! it's takes a special kind of poster to post stuff that they don't understand.
highlighting certain blocks of text doesn't suddenly mean the quote suddenly supports your arguments.
the quote is saying that evolutionary biology isn't a huge money spinner like physics.
it also says that evolutionary progress can't be predicted, because mutations happen in unpredictable ways.
care to clarify what you were attempting to twist the words to mean?If you can read this, you're too close!
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... and I'd be inclined to do the same ... if s/he started some 'souperist' Evolutionist nonesense as a pre-condition to rendering me the medical aid that I have paid for, as a taxpayer and Health Insurance member!!!
so you'd be treated by creationist treatments, i.e. prayers?
or do you want the medicine that resulted from the understandings we currently have of evolution?If you can read this, you're too close!
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Medical treatment that is acceptable to (and practiced by) Creationist includes all ethically legitimate medical treatments currently available. Where did you get the idea that Christians rely on prayer alone to counteract the physical effects of the Fall.so you'd be treated by creationist treatments, i.e. prayers?
Your idea is as pathetic (and objectionable) as somebody saying that Evolutionists should attend Vets for their medical care ... just because they believe they are an Ape's cousin!!!
I want medical treatments that are based on the understandings that we currently have from Medical Science ... and not something based on the speculation that Pondkind spontaneously turned into Mankind ... with nothing added but time, mistakes ... and the fevered imaginings of Evolutionists!!!or do you want the medicine that resulted from the understandings we currently have of evolution?0 -
FYI robin didn't make those statements.
you enjoy that that little rant?Creationist treatment includes all ethically legitimate medical treatments currently available. Where did you get the idea that Christians rely on prayer alone to counteract the physical effects of the Fall.
Your idea is as pathetic (and objectionable) as somebody saying that Evolutionists should attend Vets for their medical care ... just because they believe they are an Ape's cousin!!!
I didn't realise that doctors were treating people for the Fall.
Anyways, I was asking do you use modern medicine which is based upon our understanding of evolution and biology?
My point was that I'm not aware of any medicine that has been created by using creationism as a starting point for the research.I want medical treatments that are based on the understandings that we currently have from Medical Science ... and not something based on the speculation that Pondkind spontaneously turned into Mankind ... with nothing added but time, mistakes ... and the fevered imaginings of Evolutionists!!!
so you want treatments based upon modern medicine but you refuse to acknowledge that study into evolution has played a part in the progress of medicine.
Also, care to respond to the following which I posted previously:I have never heard so much mis-placed whinging in all my life!!!!
Ye all seem to gleefully forget that there are many eminently qualified surgeons who are Creationists ... and it has been my experience that most modern doctors are handsomly paid for their services ... and therefore charity or gratitude don't enter the equation.
They are also quite limited in both their abilities and the outcomes of their medical practices ... as the morgues in every hospital testify!!!!
... and before ye all 'lose the run of yourselves' ... and start claiming that Evolution is God's gift to Humanity, or Medicine or whatever ... please listen to these sobering words from Evolutionist Prof Gerry Coyne on the matter (emphasis mine):-
Prof Jerry Coyne Professor of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago
"In science's pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. For evolutionary biology is a historical science, laden with history's inevitable imponderables. We evolutionary biologists cannot generate a Cretaceous Park to observe exactly what killed the dinosaurs; and, unlike "harder" scientists, we usually cannot resolve issues with a simple experiment, such as adding tube A to tube B and noting the color of the mixture." Of Vice and Men The New Republic April 3 2000 p.27
"Truth be told, evolution hasn’t yielded many practical or commercial benefits. Yes, bacteria evolve drug resistance, and yes, we must take countermeasures, but beyond that there is not much to say. Evolution cannot help us predict what new vaccines to manufacture because microbes evolve unpredictably. But hasn’t evolution helped guide animal and plant breeding? Not very much. Most improvement in crop plants and animals occurred long before we knew anything about evolution, and came about by people following the genetic principle of ‘like begets like’. Even now, as its practitioners admit, the field of quantitative genetics has been of little value in helping improve varieties. Future advances will almost certainly come from transgenics, which is not based on evolution at all." Nature August 31 2006 p.984
wow! it's takes a special kind of poster to post stuff that they don't understand.
highlighting certain blocks of text doesn't suddenly mean the quote suddenly supports your arguments.
the quote is saying that evolutionary biology isn't a huge money spinner like physics.
it also says that evolutionary progress can't be predicted, because mutations happen in unpredictable ways.
care to clarify what you were attempting to twist the words to mean?If you can read this, you're too close!
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I'm twisting nothing ... read the quote yourself ... and tell me what he meant.wow! it's takes a special kind of poster to post stuff that they don't understand.
highlighting certain blocks of text doesn't suddenly mean the quote suddenly supports your arguments.
the quote is saying that evolutionary biology isn't a huge money spinner like physics.
it also says that evolutionary progress can't be predicted, because mutations happen in unpredictable ways.
care to clarify what you were attempting to twist the words to mean?
... the quote is pointing out that Evolutionary Biology is "a historical science, laden with history's inevitable imponderables" ... and not an operative ('hard') science, like Medical Science (where issues are resolved by experimentation) ... and therefore 'big picture' Evolution has little to offer the operative sciences, including Medical Science.
Just like Prof Coyne said:
"In science's pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. For evolutionary biology is a historical science, laden with history's inevitable imponderables. We evolutionary biologists cannot generate a Cretaceous Park to observe exactly what killed the dinosaurs; and, unlike "harder" scientists, we usually cannot resolve issues with a simple experiment, such as adding tube A to tube B and noting the color of the mixture." Of Vice and Men The New Republic April 3 2000 p.270 -
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NO ... the quote is pointing out that Evolutionary Biology is "a historical science, laden with history's inevitable imponderables" ... and not an operative ('hard') science, like Medical Science (where issues are resolved by experimentation) ... and therefore 'big picture' Evolution has little to offer the operative sciences, including Medical Science.
Just like Prof Coyne said:
"In science's pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. For evolutionary biology is a historical science, laden with history's inevitable imponderables. We evolutionary biologists cannot generate a Cretaceous Park to observe exactly what killed the dinosaurs; and, unlike "harder" scientists, we usually cannot resolve issues with a simple experiment, such as adding tube A to tube B and noting the color of the mixture." Of Vice and Men The New Republic April 3 2000 p.27
He/She doesn't say it has little to offer. Thats just you spinning the text to suit yourself.
It's not a secret that study of evolution requires study of historical data, it has been happening for quite some time.
They're also saying that they can't replicate scenario to replicate things that are a result of evolution due to the fact that mutations can happen unpredictably.If you can read this, you're too close!
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... and what exactly does Medical Science do differently, in say a Heart Transplant Operation, as a result of the study of Evolution ???He/She doesn't say it (Evolution) has little to offer. Thats just you spinning the text to suit yourself.
I can tell you ... precisely nothing!!!
... and that's what Prof Gerry Coyne is pointing out ... to save guys like you embarassing themselves by making claims about the supposed 'importance' of Evolution ... that don't stand up under closer scrutiny!!!
I said that they were treating people for the effects of the Fall ... (disease and death are the main effects).Koth wrote:I didn't realise that doctors were treating people for the Fall.
... and I told you that I use medical treatments that are based on the understandings that we currently have from Medical Science ... and not something based on the speculation that Pondkind spontaneously turned into Mankind ... with nothing added but time, mistakes ... and the fevered imaginings of Evolutionists!Koth wrote:Anyways, I was asking do you use modern medicine which is based upon our understanding of evolution and biology?
The starting point for all research is the Creationist Principle that we can understand life and the physical world by applying our God-given logical mind to examining the ordered effects of God's logical ordered mind ... as found throughout all of creation.Koth wrote:My point was that I'm not aware of any medicine that has been created by using creationism as a starting point for the research.
It's the Evolutionists who have a philosophical problem here ... as they believe that their minds are the results of undirected chemical reactions and a whole series of mistakes within a Universe that was made by a huge disordered explosion AKA The Big Bang!!! We would not expect any predictability or order in such a scenario ... nor could we trust any mind produced by such processes to be either logical or coherent ... a computer to which a sledge-hammer has been applied ... comes to mind!!!
It's no secret that Evolution is a highly speculative worldview designed to remove the necessity for a Creator God ... but failing miserably to do so!!!Koth wrote:It's not a secret that study of evolution requires study of historical data, it has been happening for quite some time.
If it can't be replicated or observed in action ... then it is strictly not operative science ... it is Historical Science ... as Prof Coyne has pointed out.Koth wrote:They're also saying that they can't replicate scenario to replicate things that are a result of evolution due to the fact that mutations can happen unpredictably.0 -
... and what exactly does Medical Science do differently, in say a Heart Transplant Operation, as a result of the study of Evolution ???
I can tell you ... precisely nothing!!!
... and that's what Prof Gerry Coyne is pointing out ... to save guys like you embarassing themselves by making claims about the supposed 'importance' of Evolution ... that don't stand up under closer scrutiny!!!
Explain how bacteria becomes resistant to bacteria then? this is an example of evolutionary research being applied directly to modern medicine.
And you're not even in the same country with regards to your misrepresentation of what the Professor said in the quotes you provided.If you can read this, you're too close!
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... and what exactly does Medical Science do differently, in say a Heart Transplant Operation, as a result of the study of Evolution ???
I can tell you ... precisely nothing!!!
Well there's the understanding of how a body and the immune system interacts with a new organ, which benefited from the understanding of how the immune system and circulatory system evolved.
And then there's the understanding of how infections work and how to counter them, which allows the chest to be cracked open safely. And there's the understanding of how antibiotics work and the required adaptation to counter the resistance of infectious agents which occurs because of evolution.0 -
ah right, didn't realise we were apply your myths to explain disease and death.I said that they were treating people for the effects of the Fall ... (disease and death are the main effects).
I really like how you think that the rules of a branch of science be ignored in another. Does the rules of time and space cease in a hospital?... and I told you that I use medical treatments that are based on the understandings that we currently have from Medical Science ... and not something based on the speculation that Pondkind spontaneously turned into Mankind ... with nothing added but time, mistakes ... and the fevered imaginings of Evolutionists!The starting point for all research is the Creationist Principle that we can understand life and the physical world by applying our God-given logical mind to examining the ordered effects of God's logical ordered mind ... as found throughout all of creation.
It's the Evolutionists who have a philosophical problem here ... as they believe that their minds are the results of undirected chemical reactions and a whole series of mistakes within a Universe that was made by a huge disordered explosion AKA The Big Bang!!! We would not expect any predictability or order in such a scenario ... nor could we trust any mind produced by such processes to be either logical or coherent ... a computer to which a sledge-hammer has been applied ... comes to mind!!!
Actually if you applied the creationist stance to medicine, you'd have doctors doing little more than saying, "Sure that's how god designed your body to work. guess he chose cancer for you."If you can read this, you're too close!
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I asked you to explain what exactly Medical Science does differently, in say a Heart Transplant Operation, as a result of the study of Evolution ???Explain how bacteria becomes resistant to bacteria then? this is an example of evolutionary research being applied directly to modern medicine.
... and you came back to me with an example of Natural Selection within a Kind ... which is straight out of the pages of Creation Science theory!!!
... Please tell me what you think that the Professor said ... citing the appropriate quote(s).Koth wrote:And you're not even in the same country with regards to your misrepresentation of what the Professor said in the quotes you provided.0 -
How?Well there's the understanding of how a body and the immune system interacts with a new organ, which benefited from the understanding of how the immune system and circulatory system evolved.
Our understanding of how the immune and circulatory systems work is derived from our scientific observation of how the immune and circulatory systems currently work ... and nothing else!!!
... again antibiotics were derived from our scientific observation of how these bio-chemicals currently work.And then there's the understanding of how infections work and how to counter them, which allows the chest to be cracked open safely.
Like I said in my previous post, this is an example of Natural Selection within a Kind ... which is straight out of the pages of Creation Science theory!!!... And there's the understanding of how antibiotics work and the required adaptation to counter the resistance of infectious agents which occurs because of evolution.0 -
I asked you to explain what exactly Medical Science does differently, in say a Heart Transplant Operation, as a result of the study of Evolution ???
... and you came back to me with an example of Natural Selection within a Kind ... which is straight out of the pages of Creation Science theory!!!
really?
and with regard to this;Natural selection is the process by which biologic traits become more or less common in a population due to consistent effects upon the survival or reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution.
Link to wiki
Done already on this thread... Please tell me what you think that the Professor said ... citing the appropriate quote(s).If you can read this, you're too close!
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Oh JC, that's adorable.How?
Our understanding of how the immune system works is derived from our scientific observation of how the immune system currently works ... and nothing else!!!
... again antibiotics were derived from our scientific observation of how these bio-chemicals currently work.
Like I said in my previous post, this is an example of Natural Selection within a Kind ... which is straight out of the pages of Creation Science theory!!!
Can we take it that you can't actually supply any benefit to medicine based on "Creation Science theory(tm)"?
None of the sites you copy paste from have that answer prepared?0 -
The Fall is an evidentially supported fact ... but if you are looking for myths ... then you don't have to look beyond Pondkind to Mankind Evolution where the myths are many and varied!!!ah right, didn't realise we were apply your myths to explain disease and death.
... the critical difference is that Evolution is a Historical (i.e. speculative) Science dealing predominantly in myth and imagination ...I really like how you think that the rules of a branch of science be ignored in another. Does the rules of time and space cease in a hospital?
... while Medicine is an Operative Science supported by direct observation and the results of experimentation
Why do you keep saying that???Actually if you applied the creationist stance to medicine, you'd have doctors doing little more than saying, "Sure that's how god designed your body to work. guess he chose cancer for you."
Cancer and all the other ills of this world are the result of the Fall ... but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't/cannot do anything to ameliorate their effects.
We can and should do so within the ethically acceptable boundaries of Medical Science.0 -
Please provide this evidence for the Fall myth please.The Fall is an evidentially supported fact ... but if you are looking for myths ... then you don't have to look beyond Pondkind to Mankind Evolution where the myths are many and varied!!!
so natural selection doesn't apply is medicine? you back tracking now?... the critical difference is that Evolution is a Historical (i.e. speculative) Science dealing predominantly in myth and imagination ...
... while Medecine is an Operative Science supported by direct observation and the results of experimentation
Why do you keep saying that???
Cancer and all the other ills of this world are the result of the Fall ... but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't/cannot do anything to ameliorate their effects.
We can and should do so within the ethically acceptable boundaries of Medical Science.
No, you're trying to explain real world diseases by using your myths. Not a very convincing argument.If you can read this, you're too close!
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Yes.really?
Natural Selection within Kinds is indeed a Creation Science Theory ... and AB resistance is observed to be NS within Kinds ... and NOT the transmutaion of one Kind into another Kind ... as proposed by Evolutionary Theory.and with regard to this;
A 'cop out' on providing what you were asked ... to tell me what you think that the Professor said (in favour of your claimed importance of Evolution to Medical Science)... citing the appropriate quote(s).0 -
ThanksOh JC, that's adorable.
I'm not the one making exaggerated claims for my worldview ... ye are the guys claiming that Evolution is so central to modern Medicine that some of you would go as far as depriving medical care to anybody who doesn't believe this idea ...Can we take it that you can't actually supply any benefit to medicine based on "Creation Science theory(tm)"?
None of the sites you copy paste from have that answer prepared?
... and so far ye haven't given any examples of how Evolution is centrally important to the practrice of Medical Science!!!0 -
Thanks
I'm not the one making exaggerated claims for my worldview ... ye are the guys caliming that Evolution is so central to modern Medecine that you would go as far as depriving medical care to anybody who doesn't believe this nonesense ....
... and so far ye haven't given any examples of how Evolution is centrally important to the practrice of Medical Science!!!
But JC that's not an answer to the question I've asked.
Can you supply a single example of how creationist science has contributed anything to medicine?
Yes or no?0 -
God exists ... He has told us that death and disease entered the world via the Fall ... and death and disease are ever-present in the World.Please provide this evidence for the Fall myth please.
This is my worldview ... and it is just as valid ... if not more so ... as your worldview that we are all glorified Pondslime ... with nothing added but time, and selected mistakes!!!!
It's the type of NS that's important (NS within Kinds points towards the validity of Creation Science ... and does nothing to support Materialistic Evolution of the Pondkind to Mankind variety!!!so natural selection doesn't apply is medicine? you back tracking now?
No ... I was explaining why Creationists accept and use Medical Science ... just like Evolutionists do!!!No, you're trying to explain real world diseases by using your myths. Not a very convincing argument.0 -
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So creationists are now using similar titles to that within evolution studies in an attempt to gain credibility? you still haven't produced any evidence for you myth btw.Yes.
Natural Selection within Kinds is indeed a Creation Science Theory ... and AB resistance is observed to be NS within Kinds ... and NOT the transmutaion of one Kind into another Kind ... as proposed by Evolutionary Theory.A 'cop out' on providing what you were asked ... to tell me what you think that the Professor said (in favour of your claimed importance of Evolution to Medical Science)... citing the appropriate quote(s).
It's not a cop out. I never claimed the professor said anything about evolution being important to medical science.
I was attempting to correct the misrepresentation of the professors views by yourself.
So, any chance of a little less of the deflection and subterfuge, and maybe you attempt to provide some form of evidence for your creation fable.If you can read this, you're too close!
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Again you've mislabelled the user in your quotes. King Mob did not post those points.
It's not when it comes to science. Mainly because so far your threshold for "evidence" of your myth is a holy book.God exists ... He has told us that death and disease entered the world via the Fall ... and death and disease are ever-present in the World.
This is my worldview ... and it is just as valid ... if not more so ... as your worldview that we are all glorified Pondslime ... with nothing added but time, and selected mistakes!!!!
right so people make up stuff to "support" your myth. And label it so it's easily confused with actual science. I can't find anything on the web that has documentation about natural selection within kinds. So yet again I'll ask you to please provide the evidence for your creation myth.It's the type of NS that's important (NS within Kinds points towards the validity of Creation Science ... and does nothing to support Materialistic Evolution of the Pondkind to Mankind variety!!!
You said that diseases were a result of the fall. How is that not saying that diseases are directly linked to a myth from your religion?No ... I was explaining why Creationists accept and use Medical Science ... just like Evolutionists do!!!If you can read this, you're too close!
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I am just as unimpressed with 'Father Dagon' ... as he probably is with me!!!Yes. I doubt Father Dagon is terribly impressed with your rape of science, circular logic and outright lies.
I'm not even going to dignify your lies about me with a reply.
... and yes, things seem to be 'hotting up' for 'Father Dagon' and his crew ...
I have a message for you from your Creator God ... believe on the Lord Jesus Christ ... and be Saved from 'Father Dagon' and all his works and all his promises!!!
By the sounds of things ... your 'interesting' dreams are only beginning!!!Don't be surprised if your dreams become very interesting in the near future. Ia Dagon! Ia Cthulhu!
Please be Saved ... before it's too late.0 -
Good ... so, just to clarify, are you saying that you accept that both yourself and Prof Coyne believe that Evolution is of little or no importance to medical science?It's not a cop out. I never claimed the professor said anything about evolution being important to medical science.
I was attempting to correct the misrepresentation of the professors views by yourself.
... and if you are ... how have I 'misrepresented' Prof Coyne's quote?0 -
Your false god's bleating is nothing compared to the power of the Oaths. But deep down, you already knew that, and you cling to your beliefs because you just can't bear to face the truth alone.
I have eternity awaiting me. You? Unless you can realise the truth, and cast away your comfortable lies without it breaking your very self, unless you let Father Dagon embrace you, you have nothing to look forward to but shattered dreams and dust.0 -
My threshold for my belief is the omnipotent Word of the omniscient Creator God of the Universe ... and my threshold for my science is that it be based on logically coherent hypotheses that have evidential support in the physical world!!!It's not when it comes to science. Mainly because so far your threshold for "evidence" of your myth is a holy book.
Death and disease are facts of life ... how they arose in the first place, is a matter of faith.You said that diseases were a result of the fall. How is that not saying that diseases are directly linked to a myth from your religion?
Equally, the creation of the universe and all life by an omnipotent transcendent Creator is also an obvious fact ... who that Creator was, is also a matter of faith.:)0 -
No. First off I won't speak for the professor but I've seen nothing in the quotes you've given to say the professor shares your point of view.Good ... so, just to clarify, are you saying that you accept that both yourself and Prof Coyne believe that Evolution is of little or no importance to medical science?
Secondly, I definitely disagree that our understanding of evolution hasn't had an important role in aiding medical progress.... and if you are ... how have I 'misrepresented' Prof Coyne's quote?
you misrepresented the professor by saying that professor said that evolution had little to offer any of the sciences, including medical science.
The professor was saying that study of evolution doesn't allow scientists to predict how organisms will evolve in the future.If you can read this, you're too close!
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We both have eternity waiting for us ... I will be spending it in eternal bliss with my Father in Heaven ... what has 'Dagon' been telling you about where and how are you going to be spending eternity?Your false god's bleating is nothing compared to the power of the Oaths. But deep down, you already knew that, and you cling to your beliefs because you just can't bear to face the truth alone.
I have eternity awaiting me. You? Unless you can realise the truth, and cast away your comfortable lies without it breaking your very self, unless you let Father Dagon embrace you, you have nothing to look forward to but shattered dreams and dust.
BTW the Word of God it truth ... and the truth will set you free.
Do you know that every knee shall bend and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord ?
How far beyond the Third Oath to Dagon have you gone?
... and do you know that you can still be Saved ... by believing on Jesus Christ ... no matter what Oaths you may have taken?0 -
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Lies created by men. Men who saw the naked, whole truth and were afraid, and created a host of warm, protecting lies for the weak-willed and naïve to hide behind. One way or another, you will see the truth. Whether it be now, in the embrace of Father Dagon, or when the stars are right, as you claw the eyes from your face, renouncing- too late- your whole life as a sham, is entirely up to you.0
This discussion has been closed.
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