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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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Comments

  • #902
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    dee2dee wrote: »
    Doesn't look like it's happened yet.....

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/mallow-relief-road-must-not-slip-off-agenda-3022010.html

    Mallow relief road must not slip off agenda
    Thursday February 16 2012

    PRIORITY must be given to the construction of a northern relief road around Mallow given that the proposed M20 Cork – Limerick road is likely to be shelved.

    That's the view of Mallow Town Mayor Dan Joe Fitzgerald, who said it was incumbent on Mallow Town Council to ensure that the issue is not allowed to "slip off the agenda".
    .
    Very relevant to the preservation of route corridors link you posted earlier.
    It was due to zoning of potential corridors turbo boosting land prices that the relief road didnt get built in the first place.
    heres the thread i started in 2008 highlighting this madness
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055249880

    from the independent at the time:
    The land in question was originally valued at €14.6m in 2005 but after Cork County Council re-zoned the land, it shot up in price to more than €50m by the end of 2007 after An Bord Pleanala had given the green light for a compulsory purchase order to go ahead, he said.


  • #903
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    spacetweek wrote: »
    (OT) Telecoms, though - you know how fast they change. Would you not be worried such a network would be obsolete in 10 years?

    As others have said, Fibre is pretty much the ultimate solution in telecoms and is very future proof.

    After all fibre uses light and nothing travels faster then the speed of light. So unless someone develops faster then light communications (Star Trek stuff like Quantum Physics), then nothing will surpass fibre.

    Over time you can upgrade the gear at both ends of the fibre cable, to allow it to use a broader spectrum of light to give you more bandwidth, but you don't have to replace the cable, which is the part that costs the most (digging the whole to lay new cable makes up about 70% of the cost).
    Skopzz wrote: »
    Fiber can be made of different polymers which often determines its lifespan.

    True, but even the existing cable is good for at least 50 years (if not more) and once you have fibre in place, you can relatively easily replace it by using the old cable to pull through the new cable.

    This is much, much cheaper then the initial cost of laying the first cable, which is mostly (70%) the cost of digging the ducts.


  • #904
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    Very relevant to the preservation of route corridors link you posted earlier.
    It was due to zoning of potential corridors turbo boosting land prices that the relief road didnt get built in the first place.
    heres the thread i started in 2008 highlighting this madness
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055249880

    from the independent at the time:
    Boom prices - I wonder what it would be worth now. The value inflation wasn't just because of the rezoning.

    This talk of shelving/deferring the M20 is a bit pointless, though. Even if the road was still on the agenda, it wouldn't be starting for years anyway. My 2c is that nothing further will happen until the capital spending review in 2015, at which point the M20 will be reactivated.


  • #905
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    spacetweek wrote: »
    This talk of shelving/deferring the M20 is a bit pointless, though. Even if the road was still on the agenda, it wouldn't be starting for years anyway. My 2c is that nothing further will happen until the capital spending review in 2015, at which point the M20 will be reactivated.

    It should also be pointed out that this is behind the N11/NX upgrade, M17/18, New Ross & GCOB all of which appear on the NRAs second PPP scheme.


  • #906
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Oh look Ma, another thread derailed with talk about economics!!

    Derailed by talk of fibre it seems :D!

    But how can we discuss the prospects of starting a project costing hundreds of millions - when nearly all planned projects across the country have now been cancelled because of lack of money?

    It's good to keep these threads just a tiny bit grounded in reality, however unpleasent reality may be :cool:


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  • #907
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    bk wrote: »

    After all fibre uses light and nothing travels faster then the speed of light.

    What about them neutrinos in Switzerland? ;)


  • #908
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    What about them neutrinos in Switzerland? ;)

    I know, I was actually thinking that when I posted the comment!! :D


  • #909
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I suspect Cork Mallow will be built before New Ross...somehow.


  • #910
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Cork Mallow being built first would need a head to roll, if any of them still are there, for thinking that the climbing lanes and the 2+1 pilot were a good idea.


  • #911
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    MYOB wrote: »
    Cork Mallow being built first would need a head to roll, if any of them still are there, for thinking that the climbing lanes and the 2+1 pilot were a good idea.

    Then let the heads roll! :mad:


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  • #912
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Ballybeg incident again today. Huge tailbacks. and stop and go, by all account.


  • #913
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    MYOB wrote: »
    Cork Mallow being built first would need a head to roll, if any of them still are there, for thinking that the climbing lanes and the 2+1 pilot were a good idea.

    the 2+1 idea was truly awful and I'll be glad to see the back of it (might live that long perhaps!)

    As it is , I've found a back road which avoids it and Rathduff and Mallow and is quicker by about 5 -10 minutes.


  • #914
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    I've never been on a 2 + 1 road. What's so wrrong with them?


  • #915
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    you invaribly get stuck behind a Nissan Micra doing 65km/h on the 1 lane section and he invaribly puts his foot down on the two lane section....

    The one saving grace is they have cut accidents a lot and saved lives, but of course a 2+2 would have done that also and cost very little extra.


  • #916
    Hogzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    pigtown wrote: »
    I've never been on a 2 + 1 road. What's so wrrong with them?

    You also get lane hoggers who overtake the first car and stay in the overtaking lane. This means all traffic gets stuck behind that guy and before you know it the 2 lanes get cut back down to 1 and everyone is in the same boat as before. Stuck behind a Sunday Driver.


  • #917
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    corktina wrote: »
    The one saving grace is they have cut accidents a lot and saved lives, but of course a 2+2 would have done that also and cost very little extra.

    The 2+1 at Piltown on the N24 has had more deaths on it than the old road it replaced has - they're really very unsafe with the traffic levels we thought to try them on.

    They're generally used in Scandinavia on extremely low traffic roads over huge distances to provide safe overtaking, here they end up providing rush-zones for overtaking attempts on medium to high traffic roads over short distances.


  • #918
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    thats the problem with the N20 section, the "2" sections are both 1 km long, not long enough. But it has stopped the rear-end accidents which used to be caused when people were turning right.

    I wonder were the crash barriers really necessary given the road is no different to a normal road with an overtaking lane, examples of which are on that very road? (Several sections of the crash barrier have been damaged by accidents and MONTHS later are still not repaired)


  • #919
    cjpm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    A woman in her 20s has died after the car she was driving was in collision with a truck on the Cork to Mallow road this morning.

    The incident happened at Rathduff at around 7.45am.

    The road remains closed pending a technical examination and motorists are advised to drive with care in the area as road conditions are poor.



    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/young-woman-killed-in-crash-on-cork-mallow-road-548910.html#ixzz1t2TCHLkG


    Incident happened at the junction next to the Picnic area, about 2 miles south of Rathduff, at about 7:20.

    How many more people must die before this road is upgraded? There is blood on the hands of the NRA and the politicians in Cork North Central, Cork East and Limerick.


    That road is a disgrace considering the volume of traffic on it. The 2 + 1 barrier section is hardly even maintained. Areas of missing poles with the wire sagging, other areas with bent poles that stick out into the 1m wide hard strip. It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin:mad::mad:


  • #920
    Rhys Essien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    ^^^^Agree 100%.Incompetant fools in charge.


  • #921
    black47
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭black47


    cjpm wrote: »
    A woman in her 20s has died after the car she was driving was in collision with a truck on the Cork to Mallow road this morning.

    The incident happened at Rathduff at around 7.45am.

    The road remains closed pending a technical examination and motorists are advised to drive with care in the area as road conditions are poor.



    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/young-woman-killed-in-crash-on-cork-mallow-road-548910.html#ixzz1t2TCHLkG

    Incident happened at the junction next to the Picnic area, about 2 miles south of Rathduff, at about 7:20.

    How many more people must die before this road is upgraded? There is blood on the hands of the NRA and the politicians in Cork North Central, Cork East and Limerick.


    That road is a disgrace considering the volume of traffic on it. The 2 + 1 barrier section is hardly even maintained. Areas of missing poles with the wire sagging, other areas with bent poles that stick out into the 1m wide hard strip. It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin:mad::mad:

    Totally agree with you. The M20 has alway been the poor relation when it comes to quality of national primary routes. No works have taken place since the opening of the Croom bypass in 2001 AFAIK. This is despite a period of major economic growth until 2007.

    God bless that poor lady but she won't be the last. The ABP application for the upgrade has been withdrawn so it will be back to square one again when it is re-lodged. I don't know why the route can't be split up into a number of different projects and local bypasses so that something could get moving.

    Interesting how the Longford bypass and Ballaghadreen on the N5 to Mayo are in or heading to construction. Enda and Michael Ring feathering their own nest. We also have the Mayo cycling greenway being extended from Westport out to the base of Croagh Patrick while in the meantime people are dying on the roads in other parts of the country. With all due respect better roads should come before cycling paths in my opinion.


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  • #922
    cjpm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    black47 wrote: »
    Totally agree with you. The M20 has alway been the poor relation when it comes to quality of national primary routes.

    And to think that it links the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in the Republic.....

    When the rest of the orbital routes out of Dublin were being built during the Celtic Tiger they were all sections of about 40km each (on average) e.g Galway to Ballinsloe, Limerick to Nenagh etc etc. There must have been about 20 schemes in total. Cork to Limerick is 80km, that's just 2 schemes!! It could easily have been done too if the local politicians gave a toss.....

    I'm really annoyed this morning and a bit shocked too... When I passed the scene of the crash only one ambulance had arrived and the paramedics had taken the girl out of the car and were frantically doing CPR to her in the verge as we all crawled past in our cars.... God bless her soul :(

    The newspapers are saying that the weather conditions were a factor, that's a load of rubbish, there was only a light breeze and the road was damp, it wasn't even raining at the time. A typical morning in Ireland, not exactly an extreme weather event.


  • #923
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    cjpm wrote: »

    That road is a disgrace considering the volume of traffic on it. The 2 + 1 barrier section is hardly even maintained. Areas of missing poles with the wire sagging, other areas with bent poles that stick out into the 1m wide hard strip. It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin:mad::mad:

    Which is why Dublin's roads are so bad? Which is why even the main roads in the city centre and suburbs were pockmarked and potholed to hell up until the Government finally put through some emergency funding to patch up some of the busiest roads in the country last Winter?

    Which is why the N81(sections of which would be as busy as Blarney - Cork on the N20) is on the longest of long fingers, and is also a very dangerous road?

    Perhaps you should look up the AADT of the road improvements/new orbital routes around Dublin and compare them with the N20 before playing the "Wah wah, Dublin gets all the good stuff" card.


  • #924
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Tragedy wrote: »
    cjpm wrote: »

    That road is a disgrace considering the volume of traffic on it. The 2 + 1 barrier section is hardly even maintained. Areas of missing poles with the wire sagging, other areas with bent poles that stick out into the 1m wide hard strip. It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin:mad::mad:

    Which is why Dublin's roads are so bad? Which is why even the main roads in the city centre and suburbs were pockmarked and potholed to hell up until the Government finally put through some emergency funding to patch up some of the busiest roads in the country last Winter?

    Which is why the N81(sections of which would be as busy as Blarney - Cork on the N20) is on the longest of long fingers, and is also a very dangerous road?

    Perhaps you should look up the AADT of the road improvements/new orbital routes around Dublin and compare them with the N20 before playing the "Wah wah, Dublin gets all the good stuff" card.

    All your whine's - poorly maintained urban roads, high AADT road improvements being long fingered etc. - Are as applicable to the Cork metropolitan area as they are to the GDA.


  • #925
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    All your whine's - poorly maintained urban roads, high AADT road improvements being long fingered etc. - Are as applicable to the Cork metropolitan area as they are to the GDA.
    Where did I whine? I see someone complaining that Dublin gets it all and Cork gets nothing and pointed out the factual inaccuracies in his post(i.e. almost everything).

    Apology please?


  • #926
    cjpm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Which is why Dublin's roads are so bad? Which is why even the main roads in the city centre and suburbs were pockmarked and potholed to hell up until the Government finally put through some emergency funding to patch up some of the busiest roads in the country last Winter?

    Which is why the N81(sections of which would be as busy as Blarney - Cork on the N20) is on the longest of long fingers, and is also a very dangerous road?

    Perhaps you should look up the AADT of the road improvements/new orbital routes around Dublin and compare them with the N20 before playing the "Wah wah, Dublin gets all the good stuff" card.

    I never said that all the roads in Dublin are great and I am well aware of the state of the N81. And I think you'll find that Irish roads in general are slowly becoming one big pot hole as the maintenance funds dry up.

    I was highlighting in particular the maintence (or lack there of) on the 2+1 section of the N20, a pilot scheme for a retrofit for the country and now has been forgotton about. I was driving past steel barrier poles, bent almost into the overtaking lane for weeks on end...( a very serious hazard) they were finally removed about a month ago.... and you've guessed it, no new poles and the wire is sagging almost on the ground!!


  • #927
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Tragedy wrote: »
    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    All your whine's - poorly maintained urban roads, high AADT road improvements being long fingered etc. - Are as applicable to the Cork metropolitan area as they are to the GDA.
    Where did I whine? I see someone complaining that Dublin gets it all and Cork gets nothing and pointed out the factual inaccuracies in his post(i.e. almost everything).

    Apology please?

    Both you and the poster you replied to are whining in my book. They 'blamed Dublin', you cited how awful roads are in Dublin and how they're 'ignored', as if this is only applicable to one urban area. Which obviously isn't the case.

    So there'll be no apologies offered.


  • #928
    cjpm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Where did I whine? I see someone complaining that Dublin gets it all and Cork gets nothing and pointed out the factual inaccuracies in his post(i.e. almost everything).

    Apology please?


    Please multi quote my 3 posts and bold the factual inaccuracies. Thanks in advance.


  • #929
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    Both you and the poster you replied to are whining in my book. They 'blamed Dublin', you cited how awful roads are in Dublin and how they're 'ignored', as if this is only applicable to one urban area. Which obviously isn't the case.

    So there'll be no apologies offered.

    I equated the road he listed (N20) with the N81. I also stated that the roads in Dublin City itself are in generally not great repair, and the main routes around the city only received funding for emergency repairs last Winter - after he pretty clearly implied that Dublin gets priority for road funding.
    What about this is whining exactly? All I see is someone wanting to not admit they were wrong. Quelle surprise!


  • #930
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Tragedy wrote: »
    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    Both you and the poster you replied to are whining in my book. They 'blamed Dublin', you cited how awful roads are in Dublin and how they're 'ignored', as if this is only applicable to one urban area. Which obviously isn't the case.

    So there'll be no apologies offered.

    I equated the road he listed (N20) with the N81. I also stated that the roads in Dublin City itself are in generally not great repair, and the main routes around the city only received funding for emergency repairs last Winter - after he pretty clearly implied that Dublin gets priority for road funding.
    What about this is whining exactly? All I see is someone wanting to not admit they were wrong. Quelle surprise!

    So we're agreed then. You met one posters whine with a whine of your own.

    Glad we got this sorted.


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  • #931
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    cjpm wrote: »
    Please multi quote my 3 posts and bold the factual inaccuracies. Thanks in advance.
    There is blood on the hands of the NRA and the politicians in Cork North Central, Cork East and Limerick.
    No there isn't.
    It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin
    Yes it would.
    When the rest of the orbital routes out of Dublin were being built during the Celtic Tiger they were all sections of about 40km each (on average) e.g Galway to Ballinsloe, Limerick to Nenagh etc etc. There must have been about 20 schemes in total. Cork to Limerick is 80km, that's just 2 schemes!! It could easily have been done too if the local politicians gave a toss.....
    The M7 easily surpasses the AADT of the N20 well past Portlaoise and is most likely above it after Nenagh. So the quietest part of the quietest section of the M7 is only a little quieter than the busiest parts of the N20. Hardly comparable.
    All I can find about the M6 is that
    A)The final section was 56km
    and
    B)The total cost was €427m for 194km
    The latest figures I can find for the M20 suggest ~€1Billion

    The M3 was a single scheme and the AADT is initially far higher than the N20 but drops quickly before the second toll. Combined old N3+M3 AADT would again, be higher than the N20 but I'm guessing paying two tolls on a short route is the reason traffic is halved between old+new road(as the old N7 shows no similar distribution).

    N8 Cashel to Mitchelstown and Cashel to Cullahill are the quietest sections of the M8 and to compare the two(~80km and 880m cost) with the proposed M20 is a bit...well...silly. One is finishing the link between the two sections of Motorway that connect the Greater Dublin Area (~1.8m population) with the Greater Cork Area (~520k population) and the other is building a whole new connection between Cork+Limerick.

    Can't find any information on price/length for the various N11/M11 contracts but again AADT suggests that aside from Arklow/Gorey, AADT is higher than N20.

    M9 was 28km, 18.5km, 12km, 24km in it's various schemes.

    Also, there were nowhere near 20 schemes built during the Celtic Tiger.
    The newspapers are saying that the weather conditions were a factor, that's a load of rubbish, there was only a light breeze and the road was damp, it wasn't even raining at the time. A typical morning in Ireland, not exactly an extreme weather event.
    You have no idea what caused her accident but you're categorically stating that it can't have been a factor that newspapers mentioned.


  • #932
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    So we're agreed then. You met one posters whine with a whine of your own.

    Glad we got this sorted.

    Stating facts in response to a statement claiming untrue things isn't whining.

    So we're agreed then, you were wrong and refuse to admit.
    Glad we got this sorted then.

    It's kinda amusing how silly your argument is. A poster complains that Cork gets worse treatment than Dublin, I show examples of it getting poor treatment(including an example extremely similar to the main complaint of his) to show the treatment is the same, and you reply "Are as applicable to the Cork metropolitan area as they are to the GDA."

    Yeah, that was kind of my point genius :)


  • #933
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    I seems like another N20 statistic sadly...

    R.I.P.

    :(

    PS. It's already posted on the previous page.


  • #934
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Tragedy wrote: »
    I equated the road he listed (N20) with the N81. I also stated that the roads in Dublin City itself are in generally not great repair

    I don't know about the N20 but the roads I use within north Dublin city & county are a damned lot better than many of the roads in Galway county & Mayo. We can all pick out one or two bits we don't like (N81 being a prime example of this), but the vast majority of Dublin Roads are in a better state of repair than roads across most of the country.

    You're also forgetting that Co Cork has several thousand more km of roadway than Dublin has - which dilutes the maintenance budget required.

    A getting off of the high horse is required form ALL concerned.


  • #935
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The N81 is in a very odd situation, IIRC its Kildare who are responsible for planning/designing the upgrade but the road mostly runs through Dublin and Wicklow along the upgrade path.


  • #936
    cjpm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Tragedy wrote: »
    No there isn't.

    People who use the road and others who have lost loved ones might see it differently. The politicians haven't done much canvassing for the route in the past 30 years.
    Tragedy wrote: »

    Yes it would.
    .

    I doubt steel poles angled towards passing traffic within 500mm of the overtaking lane would be left there on a national route in the Greater Dublin area. Could you imagine if the tyre of a bus caught it?? It was you that started on about potholes in Dublin.


    Tragedy wrote: »

    The M7 easily surpasses the AADT of the N20 well past Portlaoise and is most likely above it after Nenagh. So the quietest part of the quietest section of the M7 is only a little quieter than the busiest parts of the N20. Hardly comparable.
    All I can find about the M6 is that
    A)The final section was 56km
    and
    B)The total cost was €427m for 194km
    The latest figures I can find for the M20 suggest ~€1Billion

    The M3 was a single scheme and the AADT is initially far higher than the N20 but drops quickly before the second toll. Combined old N3+M3 AADT would again, be higher than the N20 but I'm guessing paying two tolls on a short route is the reason traffic is halved between old+new road(as the old N7 shows no similar distribution).

    N8 Cashel to Mitchelstown and Cashel to Cullahill are the quietest sections of the M8 and to compare the two(~80km and 880m cost) with the proposed M20 is a bit...well...silly. One is finishing the link between the two sections of Motorway that connect the Greater Dublin Area (~1.8m population) with the Greater Cork Area (~520k population) and the other is building a whole new connection between Cork+Limerick.

    Can't find any information on price/length for the various N11/M11 contracts but again AADT suggests that aside from Arklow/Gorey, AADT is higher than N20.

    M9 was 28km, 18.5km, 12km, 24km in it's various schemes.

    The €1 billion price tag for the M20 is rubbish. Land values were crazy when the route was priced. If it had been CPO'd 15 years ago it would have been a vastly different price. In addition the engineering involved in the scheme is relatively straightforward, no bottomless bogs etc.

    I am aware that the AADT's aren't as high as the other schemes, and this is partly due to the standard of the route, have you driven between Mallow and Croom? A lot of people use alternative routes just to avoid the N20!

    It would be benificial to the long term growth of the entire country to have a direct link between the 2nd and 3rd cities, something you refer to as silly. It would also link Cork to Galway.


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Also, there were nowhere near 20 schemes built during the Celtic Tiger.

    M50 Upgrade 1
    M50 Upgrade 2
    N7 Kildare Bypass (Could potentially be considered pre Celtic Tiger)
    M7/M8
    M7 Castletown to Nenagh
    N7 Nenagh to Limerick
    M7 Limerick South Ring
    M8 Cullahill to Cashel
    M8 Cashel to Mitchelstown
    M8 Mitchelstown Bypass
    M8 Fermoy Bypass
    N6 Galway to Ballinsloe
    N6 Ballinsloe to Athlone
    4 No N9 Schemes

    That's 17 schemes of varying scale in 5 routes already, there are plenty more....

    Tragedy wrote: »

    You have no idea what caused her accident but you're categorically stating that it can't have been a factor that newspapers mentioned.

    I never said I did, I just pointed out that early reports mentioned extreme weather, when in fact it was dry, slight breeze and the road was damp.


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  • #937
    GEM_13
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭GEM_13


    I don't think there is much point in speculating about this mornings accident without knowing the circumstances surrounding the crash.

    I travel the Cork-Mallow section of the road every day.The road is a nightmare at the best of times.As roads go in this country,you could argue that it could do with a bit more attention in terms of upkeep.For a road that links two major cities,it is poorly maintained.

    The layout of the road is obviously a big problem.When people are stuck behind a line of traffic and can't go anywhere,it gets frustrating-at least for some.People can look at the road and say it's flawed-poorly designed and poorly maintained -which it is.The thing is,people need to start looking at their own driving habits and not always look to blame the roads for accidents.

    There are a lot of drivers on that road that just do not think enough about the consequences their driving may have for themselves and others(probably the same on a every road).I'm sure that people who travel the road will know what i mean.From drivers cutting across other drivers at the end of the over-taking sections to driving too close to the car in front,it's a major accident waiting to happen.

    Then again,if there were two lanes to drive in,some of this behaviour may not be so prevalent.


  • #938
    Edthehead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Edthehead


    I dont know about the state of the roads in Dublin but for anyone who passes through Buttevant you know what I'm on about when I say the road surface is absolutely disgraceful, yes its on the N20, the main route between the Republic's second and third largest cities but it resembles an off road testing ground for 4x4 vehicles. There's no potholes, it's just sinking into the trenches that were dug for the new sewerage scheme three years ago. Due to the 50km speed limit cars are able to zig zag their way down the street, if this was on a part of the road with the 100km limit there would be carnage. The uneven surface must surely effect the stopping distances of the 12000 vehicles that use it each day, are they going to wait until one of our children or elderly get hit by a vehicle before they decide to resurface it? We have started a petition on www.buttevant.ie please take a few moments to sign it.
    The girl (RIP) who died this morning, died on a stretch of road that has a white line separating opposing lanes of traffic, head on crashes will happen on these stretches regardless of weather. At least with the 2+1 the chance of a head on crash is lessened. That girl would have had a nasty accident this morning but would probably be still alive if it had happened on a 2+1 stretch.


  • #939
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Tragedy wrote: »
    All I can find about the M6 is that
    A)The final section was 56km
    and
    B)The total cost was €427m for 194km
    The latest figures I can find for the M20 suggest ~€1Billion

    Ignore those prices as they'd include the cost of land at boom prices. A good example of this is the proposed GCOB, which was quoted as costing up to €350m during the boom (depending on who you were listening to). The latest estimates are in the region of €120m-€150m.

    The construction of the proposed M17/18 (about 60km) - expected to cost €300m or so - so a scheme of about 80km like the M20 would be in the region of €400m.


  • #940
    littlemac1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭littlemac1980


    What a tragedy. I feel so sorry for that poor girl's (RIP) family.

    My recollection is that this accident occurred in exactly the same place as a fatality last year.

    I travel Limerick to Mallow every day. The entire Cork to Limerick road isn't fit for Horses. It's a Joke.

    I can recall at least 3 fatalities between Charleville and Rourke's Cross last year, 1 of which was a new born baby (RIP).

    Millions are spent every year by the Government on media campaigns and Television advertising, supposedly aimed at reducing road deaths. I wonder what Gay Byrne's salary for the RSA was?

    If the Government gave serious consideration to reducing road deaths, they take the obvious decisions of providing a system of roads which are suitable to the level of traffic on them.

    Focusing campaigns on safer driving and using your indicators correctly are all well and good but are of limited benefit in areas where the main cause of road deaths are the roads themselves.

    I have no doubt but that each of the deaths I've mentioned and many more would not have occurred if the Limerick to Cork road was fit for purpose.

    Anyone suggesting that we don't have all the facts etc. etc. Get off the Luas, drive the N20 and then make a comment after you've all the facts.


  • #941
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I'm rather worried about that accident as I'm good friends with a girl that age who travels the N20 around then and I've been unable to reach her all day.


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  • #942
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Amtmann wrote: »
    I'm rather worried about that accident as I'm good friends with a girl that age who travels the N20 around then and I've been unable to reach her all day.

    Hopefully she will be ok. First post I ever put down was about that road, Its lethal, May the young woman rest in peace.


  • #943
    GEM_13
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭GEM_13


    Hope it's not your friend.Try ringing a relative if you have a number for one.


  • #944
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    littlemac1980 wrote: »
    What a tragedy. I feel so sorry for that poor girl's (RIP) family.

    My recollection is that this accident occurred in exactly the same place as a fatality last year.

    I travel Limerick to Mallow every day. The entire Cork to Limerick road isn't fit for Horses. It's a Joke.

    I can recall at least 3 fatalities between Charleville and Rourke's Cross last year, 1 of which was a new born baby (RIP).

    Millions are spent every year by the Government on media campaigns and Television advertising, supposedly aimed at reducing road deaths. I wonder what Gay Byrne's salary for the RSA was?

    If the Government gave serious consideration to reducing road deaths, they take the obvious decisions of providing a system of roads which are suitable to the level of traffic on them.

    Focusing campaigns on safer driving and using your indicators correctly are all well and good but are of limited benefit in areas where the main cause of road deaths are the roads themselves.

    I have no doubt but that each of the deaths I've mentioned and many more would not have occurred if the Limerick to Cork road was fit for purpose.

    Anyone suggesting that we don't have all the facts etc. etc. Get off the Luas, drive the N20 and then make a comment after you've all the facts.

    Couldn't agree more! Having driven the N20 numerous times, I can confidently say it's abhorrent.


  • #945
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Only really know the Cork to Mallow stretch.

    I find the 2+1 sections to be quite dangerous most of the time. People gunning it try to make it past slower drivers just when the lane ends. People staying in the overtaking lane etc. Very chaotic.


  • #946
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Amtmann wrote: »
    I'm rather worried about that accident as I'm good friends with a girl that age who travels the N20 around then and I've been unable to reach her all day.

    I hope it's not your friend Amtmann. Back in 1996 when the road was fairly new, my Dad and I were lucky enough not to be N20 statistics when we had a folding caravan on tow. IIRC this moron was overtaking against oncoming traffic when he had to brake to get back in behind us. According to my Mam and Granny (who were in another car behind), he nearly hit the caravan and God knows what would have happened then. I had thoughts of us being catapulted into oncoming traffic upon being told - not good.

    Thankfully, nothing happened which I hope will be the same for your friend.

    Regards,

    Irish and Proud


  • #947
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Notwithstanding I have a vested interest in the M20 as a user of this road, the actual accident site is in fact in pretty good shape, having been extensively resurfaced last year.In fact the whole section south of Rathduff is pretty acceptable (it does have two gosafe van locations however, so there is a problem, probably with driving standards imo)

    The section north of Rathduff is marred by the flawed 2+1 section but again is acceptable as far as Mallow , followed by the poor section as far as north of Buttevant which gives the N20 it's bad name, after which it's fairly good all the way to Croom where it improves radically.

    thus, I disagree with comments to the effect of blaming the Govt or the RSA.

    My sympathies to the girls family, RIP


  • #948
    cjpm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    There was another accident today in the middle of the 2 + 1 section at about 4:30 this evening. At the junction for the Munster Driving Campus, there is no wire rope at this location for about 100m due to 3 junctions onto the road.

    2 Cars involved, the occupants seemed ok thank god.


  • #949
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,888 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The N20 is a mixed bag of a road but the section from north of Mallow to north of Charleville is a complete disgrace. It's a goat track with no bypasses to speak of either. The section around Buttevant would be an embarrassment for a Third World country.

    The M20 needs to be prioritised as the N20 is not fit for purpose along much, if not most, of its length.

    RIP to the young woman killed in the accident earlier today.


  • #950
    cjpm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    corktina wrote: »
    Notwithstanding I have a vested interest in the M20 as a user of this road, the actual accident site is in fact in pretty good shape, having been extensively resurfaced last year.In fact the whole section south of Rathduff is pretty acceptable (it does have two gosafe van locations however, so there is a problem, probably with driving standards imo)

    The section north of Rathduff is marred by the flawed 2+1 section but again is acceptable as far as Mallow , followed by the poor section as far as north of Buttevant which gives the N20 it's bad name, after which it's fairly good all the way to Croom where it improves radically.

    thus, I disagree with comments to the effect of blaming the Govt or the RSA.

    My sympathies to the girls family, RIP

    Jeez the section between Buttevent and Croom is pretty bad too. The infamous Rourkes Cross is in this section also.


  • #951
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    it's no worse than many other N roads and better than most on that section.


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