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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #872
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    bk wrote: »

    Cork seems to have a longer term vision then most other counties.

    And you'd be from where bk? :cool:

    Also - I'm glad to see that Sponge is predicting a very long life for both of us! :D


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    #873
    dee2dee
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭dee2dee


    The NRA has issued a Circular covering the treatment of preferred route corridors by county councils following the suspension of projects.

    Hopefully I've managed to attach it.


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    #874
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    And you'd be from where bk? :cool:

    Also - I'm glad to see that Sponge is predicting a very long life for both of us! :D

    maybe not you bill, the rest of us are still young enough.


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    #875
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    If you're planning on building a house in the countryside and don't notice that a road is going to be built right through it, you DESERVE to have your gaf bulldozed.
    antoobrien wrote: »
    maybe not you bill, the rest of us are still young enough.
    Cold as ice!


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    #876
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    dee2dee wrote: »
    The NRA has issued a Circular covering the treatment of preferred route corridors by county councils following the suspension of projects.

    Hopefully I've managed to attach it.

    Preferred Route Corridor Selected.
    Significant expenditure will have been incurred in bringing these schemes to a point where a degree of clarity, but not absolute certainty, has been achieved in relation to the intended route corridor prior to the suspension of planning work. It is important in the case of these schemes also that the benefits of planning work completed to date and expenditure incurred are preserved, thereby facilitating the resumption of planning at a future date and avoiding the need to repeat various studies, assessments, surveys, etc. with implications for public expenditure.

    Planning authorities are, accordingly, requested to make all reasonable efforts to protect identified preferred route corridors with the aim of enabling further road scheme planning work to be undertaken at some point in the future, taking, as a starting point, the corridor as previously identified. Planning authorities might, for example, include a suitable written objective on the improvement of the road in their Development Plans and Local Area Plans and have regard to the identified preferred corridor when considering, on a case by case basis, any planning applications received which might impact on the identified corridor and, in turn, potentially affect the future viability of the proposed road.

    ...


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    #877
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    cjpm wrote: »
    Talks bid to revive motorway

    CORK county engineer Noel O’Keeffe is to lead a delegation to Dublin in an attempt to get the €800 million Cork-Limerick motorway back on track.


    The county council had spent nearly €20m designing the 80km motorway before the National Roads Authority recently decided it did not have the money to proceed.
    A special meeting of the council’s Northern Committee will take place shortly in Mallow to discuss the situation. It is envisaged a delegation of councillors, led by Mr O’Keeffe, will meet NRA officials and Transport Minister Leo Varadkar next month. Councillors will be pressing to reverse the decision, but may have to compromise by agreeing, to at best, the motorway being built on a piecemeal basis.
    The motorway was designed to run from Blarney Business Park to Croom, Co Limerick, and was to be built through a Public Private Partnership (PPP).
    The NRA also ordered the council to cancel a Bord Pleanála oral hearing which was to be held last week on the proposed junction connection to the motorway from Buttevant.
    If the hearing had gone ahead and its board had decided, as expected, to approve the motorway, the council could have issued Compulsory Purchase Orders for the land required.
    Mr O’Keeffe said the council had spent €19.5m to date on a project "which was now on the shelf". Even if the minister and the NRA do an about-turn the council, he said, would "unfortunately start over again".
    The need for a major upgrading of the N20 has been stated time and time again as several sections of it are accident blackspots.

    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/talks-bid-to-revive-motorway-177230.html#ixzz1gavmHg2Y

    I suspect this was no more than wishful thinking and/or a PR stunt by the councillors.

    It would not be viable for PPP via piecemeal, section-by-section build and the Gov doesn't have the money.

    Anyone know where to find minutes for "A special meeting of the council’s Northern Committee will take place shortly in Mallow to discuss the situation." ?

    Or any update on whether they actually met "NRA officials and Transport Minister Leo Varadkar" in January?


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    #878
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    Update: I can't find anything on the Cork County Council website.

    The Northern Committee is mentioned here but I can't find minutes of any of their meetings.

    The Cork Roads Design Office have their own website, but it's useless and not updated http://www.corkrdo.ie/index.php

    You'd wonder did they settle for €1.2m for N71 improvements after Deputy Jim Daly requesting it last Oct

    Or am I just being a cynic?


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    #879
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Im sorry but i would rather see €800,000,000 of our national debt paid off than have this motorway.

    And i do have a keen interest in having the motorway set up but overall road infrastructure this large should not be prioritised over our national debt.

    \awaits flaming.


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    #880
    KCAccidental
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭KCAccidental


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Im sorry but i would rather see €800,000,000 of our national debt paid off than have this motorway.

    And i do have a keen interest in having the motorway set up but overall road infrastructure this large should not be prioritised over our national debt.

    \awaits flaming.

    One project I would love to see done above the rest of the M20 would be upgrading the N20 from Blarney to Mallow to at least a temporary 2+2, but ideally HQDC in the short to medium term. the 2+1 is a disaster and wholly inadequate for the high levels od commuter traffic between Mallow and the Northside of Cork.


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    #881
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    KCAccidental wrote: »
    One project I would love to see done above the rest of the M20 would be upgrading the N20 from Blarney to Mallow to at least a temporary 2+2, but ideally HQDC in the short to medium term. the 2+1 is a disaster and wholly inadequate for the high levels od commuter traffic between Mallow and the Northside of Cork.

    Could be the kind of thing the council can try to get instead of motorway from Blarney to Croom, but it's doubtful.


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    #882
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Im sorry but i would rather see €800,000,000 of our national debt paid off than have this motorway.

    And i do have a keen interest in having the motorway set up but overall road infrastructure this large should not be prioritised over our national debt.

    \awaits flaming.

    I would rather see 800,000,000 spent on marshmallows than high-risk bond-holders to be perfectly honest.

    We should spend what we can spend on capital projects as they will be useful for decades / possibly centuries.


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    #883
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Hogzy wrote: »
    And i do have a keen interest in having the motorway set up but overall road infrastructure this large should not be prioritised over our national debt.

    Putting infra like this in place that will make us more competitive will make the debt more bearable (i.e. help to generate jobs, therefore taxes).


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    #884
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Putting infra like this in place that will make us more competitive will make the debt more bearable (i.e. help to generate jobs, therefore taxes).

    But not quick enough. Thats the problem. The money generated by building the M20 probably wouldnt come close to the interest we owe on borrowed money. Money needs to be invested in something that can provide a return quicker. I personally think a national Fibre network is more important that the M20. But a discussion on that is more suited to a different forum obviously. As much as i hate to say it major road projects like the M20 are not high up enough on the list of priorities to justify their construction.

    Solair wrote: »
    I would rather see 800,000,000 spent on marshmallows than high-risk bond-holders to be perfectly honest.

    We should spend what we can spend on capital projects as they will be useful for decades / possibly centuries.
    If we dont pay back the money borrowed from the IMF then you can kiss good buy to any demand there is for this motorway in the first place. MNC's will be leaving this country faster than you can drive from Cork to Limerick on the N20. Look at the bigger picture. We are in this mess, we cant get out of it. We have to deal with it in a logical manor.


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    #885
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Hogzy wrote: »
    But not quick enough. Thats the problem. The money generated by building the M20 probably wouldnt come close to the interest we owe on borrowed money. Money needs to be invested in something that can provide a return quicker. I personally think a national Fibre network is more important that the M20. But a discussion on that is more suited to a different forum obviously. As much as i hate to say it major road projects like the M20 are not high up enough on the list of priorities to justify their construction.



    If we dont pay back the money borrowed from the IMF then you can kiss good buy to any demand there is for this motorway in the first place. MNC's will be leaving this country faster than you can drive from Cork to Limerick on the N20. Look at the bigger picture. We are in this mess, we cant get out of it. We have to deal with it in a logical manor.

    I'm not suggesting we don't pay back debt (especially the money we're borrowing from the IMF).

    However, it should be pointed out that the IMF do like to see investment in infrastructure. Many bondholders will also like to see this kind of investment as it makes it more likely that will get a return on their investment.


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    #886
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I'm not suggesting we don't pay back debt (especially the money we're borrowing from the IMF).

    However, it should be pointed out that the IMF do like to see investment in infrastructure. Many bondholders will also like to see this kind of investment as it makes it more likely that will get a return on their investment.

    They like seeing it when the country can afford to do it. Thats the difference. We cant afford it at the moment. When we can afford such a large project then obviously it will look good to potential investors as it appears that we are no longer investing in infrastructure that provides a quicker return. The sooner the country can afford the M20 the better. But that time is not here yet unfortunately.


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    #887
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Hogzy wrote: »
    They like seeing it when the country can afford to do it. Thats the difference. We cant afford it at the moment. When we can afford such a large project then obviously it will look good to potential investors as it appears that we are no longer investing in infrastructure that provides a quicker return. The sooner the country can afford the M20 the better. But that time is not here yet unfortunately.

    They'd rather see us do it now than current spending (big fans of Keynes).


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    #888
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    antoobrien wrote: »
    They'd rather see us do it now than current spending (big fans of Keynes).

    IMO the countries Fibre network should come before the M20. An investment of this sort is much more business orientated especially considering Ireland seems to be taking Europe's lead in terms of cloud technologies.


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    #889
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,575 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I think that this motorway project is a bit like the proposed A5 scheme in Northern Ireland. It has been planned as a large, monolithic single "all or nothing" scheme but given the constrained fiscal environment the country is in (to put it mildly!) perhaps a phased approach could be taken towards the M20, with the most urgently needed sections proceeding first.

    I would be thinking that the section between Mallow and Charleville could be prioritised with the section bypassing Buttevant being the very first section to proceed. I don't know, however, how easy or difficult it would be to phase this scheme. The existing N20 around Buttevant is so dire that something really needs to be done soon and a realignment of the route seems like it would be a bit of a waste of resources given the plans for the M20.

    Perhaps the M20 could have "temporary" termini to tie certain priority sections of the route back into the existing N20? This has been done before in the UK for the M6 in Cumbria and in the North on the M2.


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    #890
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    I think that this motorway project is a bit like the proposed A5 scheme in Northern Ireland. It has been planned as a large, monolithic single "all or nothing" scheme but given the constrained fiscal environment the country is in (to put it mildly!) perhaps a phased approach could be taken towards the M20, with the most urgently needed sections proceeding first.

    I would be thinking that the section between Mallow and Charleville could be prioritised with the section bypassing Buttevant being the very first section to proceed. I don't know, however, how easy or difficult it would be to phase this scheme. The existing N20 around Buttevant is so dire that something really needs to be done soon and a realignment of the route seems like it would be a bit of a waste of resources given the plans for the M20.

    Perhaps the M20 could have "temporary" termini to tie certain priority sections of tge route back into the existing N20? This has been done before in the UK for the M6 in Cumbria and in the North on the M2.

    If it were to be segmented i would think Cork to Mallow would be done first. Granted the area you mentioned is probably the unsafest. However because of political pressure i would imagine the busiest part would be constructed first. THat will keep the voters happy and IMO would make more sense.


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    #891
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Hogzy wrote: »
    If it were to be segmented i would think Cork to Mallow would be done first. Granted the area you mentioned is probably the unsafest. However because of political pressure i would imagine the busiest part would be constructed first. THat will keep the voters happy and IMO would make more sense.
    indeed.
    political pressure always wins out over common sense.

    to be honest, this interurban would be greatly improved by a minimum of a bypass of Buttevant and Charleville.
    This along with a Claregalway bypass would swipe the guts of an hour off an "Atlantic Corridor" journey (or nearly 2 hours less going on my last spin from Sligo to Cork)

    As i already mentioned on this fourm, theres well over a billion euro already spent on the "Atlantic Corridor" which as a route is next to useless for longer journeys due to these 3 congestion blackspots

    As in, from Cork to Mayo/ Sligo/ Donegal youre better off to go via Athlone or Mullingar than the route that is getting so much spent on it as a priority.


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    #892
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Hogzy wrote: »


    If we don't pay back the money borrowed from the IMF then you can kiss good buy to any demand there is for this motorway in the first place.

    Reality check: we can't pay it back and thus, logically, we won't
    :cool:

    Default is only a matter of when.

    Sorry kiddies - that's what the numbers add up to. And the sooner we collectively take heads-out-of-sands-of-denial the sooner that we can chart a course that may lead to an M20 in your lifetimes.


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    #893
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Reality check: we can't pay it back and thus, logically, we won't
    :cool:

    Default is only a matter of when.

    Sorry kiddies - that's what the numbers add up to. And the sooner we collectively take heads-out-of-sands-of-denial the sooner that we can chart a course that may lead to an M20 in your lifetimes.

    Given how well you have backed up the points you have made above. I have no choice but to accept everything you say as the truth. Thanks for enlightening me.


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    #894
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Reality check: we can't pay it back and thus, logically, we won't
    :cool:

    Default is only a matter of when.

    I'd prefer more than simply the words of a handful of celebrity economists.

    We are in economic crapville, no doubt about that, but hyperbole doesn't serve us much good. And there is a legitimate case one could put forward that we need to invest in our infrastructure to get us out of this mess, though as others have articulated, this particular scheme would not be highest on the list.


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    #895
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Given how well you have backed up the points you have made above. I have no choice but to accept everything you say as the truth. Thanks for enlightening me.

    What point have I not "backed up"?

    In order for us to pay off the debt we are building up, our economy would have to grow at rates far in excess of anything remotely likely. That's not really very difficult to understand, whether it is stated by "celebrity economists" (who, btw, called the bust when the non-celebs where in denial) or whether it is stated by the vast majority of non-celebrity economists who also believe our debt is completely unsustainable.

    In fact the only economists taking a view that the current "plan" has even a remote chance of working are a handful of jaded hacks in the Irish Times and other parts of the establishment meeja - the same guys who cheered Ireland all the way to bankruptcy.

    Whether you accept reality or not is irrelevant - it is what it is. We can't, therefore won't, pay the debts the current "strategy" will leave us with.

    Simple. Till we balance our primary budget and ditch the debts taken on to save the (Euro) banking system you can kiss the M20 goodbye :)


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    #896
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Oh look Ma, another thread derailed with talk about economics!!


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    #897
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Hogzy wrote: »
    IMO the countries Fibre network should come before the M20. An investment of this sort is much more business orientated especially considering Ireland seems to be taking Europe's lead in terms of cloud technologies.
    (OT) Telecoms, though - you know how fast they change. Would you not be worried such a network would be obsolete in 10 years?
    The M20, on the other hand, will still be useful in 50 years. Motorways in other countries have, in some cases, been around since the early 20th century and are still highly useful pieces of infrastructure.
    I'd prefer if telecoms investments were made by the market. The Gov can facilitate this by providing ducting - which they are doing, alonside the new motorways and other routes, as discussed elsewhere on Boards.


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    #898
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    spacetweek wrote: »
    (OT) Telecoms, though - you know how fast they change. Would you not be worried such a network would be obsolete in 10 years?

    Fibre won't be obsolete, it is pretty much infinitely upgradeable. Wireless technologies will obsolete on your timescale eg 3G.


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    #899
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    spacetweek wrote: »
    (OT) Telecoms, though - you know how fast they change. Would you not be worried such a network would be obsolete in 10 years?
    The M20, on the other hand, will still be useful in 50 years. Motorways in other countries have, in some cases, been around since the early 20th century and are still highly useful pieces of infrastructure.
    I'd prefer if telecoms investments were made by the market. The Gov can facilitate this by providing ducting - which they are doing, alonside the new motorways and other routes, as discussed elsewhere on Boards.

    As said above. Fibre wont be obsolete for a VERY long time. Copper cable has been working for donkeys years as it is.

    People can deny it all they want. Put i would be placing my money on our Fibre network getting upgraded before our beloved N20. And in my opinion that is a much better option because it provides more bang for the buck.


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    #900
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    Fiber can be made of different polymers which often determines its lifespan.


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    #901
    dee2dee
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭dee2dee


    mydiscworld wrote: »

    Or any update on whether they actually met "NRA officials and Transport Minister Leo Varadkar" in January?

    Doesn't look like it's happened yet.....

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/mallow-relief-road-must-not-slip-off-agenda-3022010.html

    Mallow relief road must not slip off agenda
    Thursday February 16 2012

    PRIORITY must be given to the construction of a northern relief road around Mallow given that the proposed M20 Cork – Limerick road is likely to be shelved.

    That's the view of Mallow Town Mayor Dan Joe Fitzgerald, who said it was incumbent on Mallow Town Council to ensure that the issue is not allowed to "slip off the agenda".

    Speaking at the February meeting of the local authority, Cllr Fitzgerald pointed out that the process of lobbying for the relief road started long before the M20 was first mooted.
    "We held back because we were advised that the M20 would be a better overall plan. In light of recent developments I believe we must now restart that process to ensure that the relief road is given the priority that it so clearly merits," said Cllr Fitzgerald.

    He said the Northern area committee of Cork County Council has sought a deputation with Transport Minister Leo Varadkar regarding the M20.
    "In light of the concerns surrounding the future of the M20, it is vitally important that the northern relief road not be allowed to slip off the agenda," said Cllr Fitzgerald.

    Sinn Fein's Willie O'regan said that he always maintained the M20 proposal was little more than "fairytalk".

    "For Minister Varadkar to suggest to Deputy Tom Barry that it was still on the agenda is more fairytalk. This makes it all the more important that we keep the northern relief road on the agenda," he added.

    Fine Gael's Noel O'connor said that it was clear the M20 was a non-starter. "The Minister is not going to change his mind at this stage. The blueprints are already in place for a relief road. These should now be used to salvage something out of the whole M20 project," he insisted.


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