Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

Smidge · 14-04-2012 2:28am

@ Domo
You can become a Naga Mystic and never have to wear clothes again;)

take everything · 14-04-2012 2:46am

MajorMax wrote: »

If I appear for an official photograph in my pirate costume, I'm a committed Pastafarian (Reformed), I would treat any attempt to remove my Parrot or eye patch as a breach of my religious rights

^This.
Twenty odd pages ****ing on about a Sky-Wizard-influenced dress code being more important than the law of the land?
FFS.

General Relativity · 14-04-2012 4:03am

af_thefragile wrote: »

More than a fifth of the word's population is muslim. You cannot antagonise such a large population of people. Especially when you hold many important political and economic interests with these countries.

51% of the population of the planet are female, you shouldn't antagonise them with archaic beliefs and practices. Especially when they make a fairly significant contribution to the survival of our species.

General Relativity · 14-04-2012 4:14am

irishconvert wrote: »

Did you ever hear the expression don't believe everything you read in the papers. It amazes me that a grown adult would take that "article" seriously. The headline is seriously misleading, there was no threat specifically against Jedward. In fact there is no proof or source of where the so called "threat" came from. Lazy lazy reporting, just trying to sell papers.

Wow, what a fine example of critical thaught. You asked for evidence of wild conjecture.

Apply to religion;

Did you ever hear the expression don't believe everything you read in the Koran/Bible/Torah/Bhagavad Gita. It amazes me that a grown adult would take that "book" seriously. The book is seriously misleading. In fact there is no proof or source of where the so called "book" came from. Lazy lazy explaination of the natural order, just trying to sell magic beans.

Congrats on becoming an athiest or at the very least agnostic :pac:

Sorry for the double.

IrishEyes19 · 14-04-2012 5:05am

I have no problem respecting people and their culture/religion, be it what it is. But it's annoying that the rules would not be bent if I was in a muslim country. But it is expected that rules are broken here or else "discrimination and racism" is shouted out.

wendell borton · 14-04-2012 8:17am

When people come to this country to avail of everything this society has to offer it is only fair that they play by the rules of it and make some compromises.

Grayson · 14-04-2012 8:34am

mishkalucy wrote: »

@ Grayson
I have no problem whatsoever with them wearing whatever they like and as you stated that they "should" not must wear the hijab.
You didn't comment on the part off my post as to the women being allowed wear scarves for other elements of modesty ie baldness.
I referenced that as that was what I found when reading up before posting tonight, nothing more, nothing less as I don't claim to be an expert in sharia law:)
Surely though you can accept that for a couple of minutes in a photo booth would not cause them to become harlots or any less of a muslim woman?

Baldness is different to religious belief. (Although it does bring up a thought. if a man/woman is bald and wears a wig permanently, do they need to keep it on or off. And I don't mean for modesty, I mean for identification purposes. I know if you wear glasses permanently and they're clear, you can wear them in passport photo's).

See, for a muslim woman who wears a hijab, it is part of their religion. It's not just about modesty. It is part of their religious dress. It would be like forcing a nun who's taken a vow of silence to talk or making a cloistered order walk outside everyday.

Plus on the modesty aspect, they're used to it. Taking it off does make them feel crappy. Imagine how you'd feel if you had to have an ID photo taken in your bra.
Now if it were necessary for legal or practical reasons because for some reason we used nipples to identify women that would be one thing. But we don't, so there's no actual reason to make them do it. It's the same in this case. When there's no legal or practical reason, the only reason we have for doing it is to force them to abide by our rules for the sake of the rules.
And that's as wrong countries that make women wear particular clothes because it's the rule in that country.

Do you see what I mean?

tigger123 · 14-04-2012 8:55am

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

I have no problem respecting people and their culture/religion, be it what it is. But it's annoying that the rules would not be bent if I was in a muslim country. But it is expected that rules are broken here or else "discrimination and racism" is shouted out.

What have the laws/rules/regulations in an entirely different country got to do with the rules which the Irish State apply here? Should all legislation be thought up on a tit-for-tat basis? I think you're missing the point entirely.

Grayson · 14-04-2012 8:57am

tigger123 wrote: »

Should all legislation be thought up on a tit-for-tat basis?

Yes it should. But only when it's funny.

tigger123 · 14-04-2012 9:01am

Grayson wrote: »

Yes it should. But only when it's funny.

As long as it's for comedic value, I'll roll right in behind that :pac:

Jester252 · 14-04-2012 9:07am

Not to sure if this had been said but on the street would a pic of muslim woman in her headscarves on the card not make it easier to match up with the real woman. I had to remove my glasses for my passport pic and everytime I'm in an airport I have to remove my glasses so they can make sure it is me.
I do however think that when in a land you should follow their laws to a certin amount.

14-04-2012 9:36am

wendell borton wrote: »

When people come to this country to avail of everything this society has to offer it is only fair that they play by the rules of it and make some compromises.

irish muslims don't exist no?

looksee · 14-04-2012 9:36am

Jester252 wrote: »

I do however think that when in a land you should follow their laws to a certin amount.

I wonder has anyone been saying this to their illegal relatives in the US?

tbh · 14-04-2012 10:12am

dlofnep wrote: »

Proper order. Religion is not a get out of jail free card when it comes to observing law.

I agree with you 100%. Personal principle never trumps the law of the land, which must be observed by everyone. Like the household charge for example

KindOfIrish · 14-04-2012 10:28am

Yakult wrote: »

Religion is funny.

Go to Bradford UK and say it there:eek:

Grayson · 14-04-2012 10:48am

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Go to Bradford UK and say it there:eek:

I remember there were plans for a gay pride march in Jerusalem. Probably the fisrt time the three religious groups in the city agreed on something

Fluorescence · 14-04-2012 1:04pm

mishkalucy wrote: »

Muslim women are not forced to wear Hijab, the the Quran states that there is no compulsion within the religion to wear it(2:256). They wear it to be seen as modest women. If a woman who had undergone chemotherapy or had alopecia wanted to wear a headscarf for this photo I.D would it be allowed?
I have no problem with their religious beliefs and believe everyone has the right to their religion but on this occasion feel that the hijab should be removed for the short period of time it would take for the photo to be taken

That's something that really bothers me too. The Quran only states women must dress modestly (which is fair enough, tbh). The hijab and niqab are cultural traditions, not religious practise. So there's no need for them to be exempt on the grounds of religion.

later12 · 14-04-2012 1:07pm

Pataman wrote: »

They should be made remove it. If they are stopped at the side of the road the garda has no way of checking fingerprints.

The GNIB card is not an ID card. Banks are not even allowed to accept it as ID. It clearly states on the card "This is not an ID card".

You don't have to prove to random Gardai in the street that you are resident or have leave to remain in Ireland. If your identity needs to be established on the street, it can be done so by providing a passport which will also contain any relevant visas.

Old Tom · 14-04-2012 1:13pm

hondasam wrote: »

Is wearing a balaclava part of non Muslim culture ?

If I go to Muslim countries I respect their culture. If they come to my place, I expect them to respect mine.

As simple as that.

Grayson · 14-04-2012 1:28pm

fluorescence wrote: »

That's something that really bothers me too. The Quran only states women must dress modestly (which is fair enough, tbh). The hijab and niqab are cultural traditions, not religious practise. So there's no need for them to be exempt on the grounds of religion.

I guess you'd best tell the 1.6 billion adherents of Islam that they got it wrong.

Remember, in Christianity there are many traditions which aren't mentioned it the gospels. It's the same in Islam.Many of the rules that are followed were developed afterwards. One of the biggest sources for Islam are the hadiths. These are stories about the prophet. Some are known to be true some are 4th hand stories that can't be verified. Whereas in Christianity the same can't be said and even the basics facts of Jesus life are in dispute.

But none the less, a lot of christian tradition comes from stuff like the acts of the apostles and the works of saints and scholars later on. take xmas day and easter for example.
They are however deeply rooted in Christian tradition and are very much a part of the religion. The same goes for the hijab. Even if it's not mentioned specifically in the Koran, there are other sources and it is now an important part of their religion.

later12 · 14-04-2012 1:34pm

Old Tom wrote: »

If I go to Muslim countries I respect their culture. If they come to my place, I expect them to respect mine.

As simple as that.

Hijab free GNIB cards are your "culture"?

Fluorescence · 14-04-2012 1:37pm

Grayson wrote: »

I guess you'd best tell the 1.6 billion adherents of Islam that they got it wrong.

Remember, in Christianity there are many traditions which aren't mentioned it the gospels. It's the same in Islam.Many of the rules that are followed were developed afterwards. One of the biggest sources for Islam are the hadiths. These are stories about the prophet. Some are known to be true some are 4th hand stories that can't be verified. Whereas in Christianity the same can't be said and even the basics facts of Jesus life are in dispute.

But none the less, a lot of christian tradition comes from stuff like the acts of the apostles and the works of saints and scholars later on. take xmas day and easter for example.
They are however deeply rooted in Christian tradition and are very much a part of the religion. The same goes for the hijab. Even if it's not mentioned specifically in the Koran, there are other sources and it is now an important part of their religion.

Fair enough.

irishconvert · 14-04-2012 2:39pm

mishkalucy wrote: »

Muslim women are not forced to wear Hijab, the the Quran states that there is no compulsion within the religion to wear it(2:256).

Incorrect, Muslim women must wear hijab, i.e. cover their hair. I think this article explains it well...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/hijab_1.shtml

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

I have no problem respecting people and their culture/religion, be it what it is. But it's annoying that the rules would not be bent if I was in a muslim country. But it is expected that rules are broken here or else "discrimination and racism" is shouted out.

If you go to many Muslim countries, you are allowed to drink alcohol although it is against Islam. So they are accommodating your culture.

wendell borton wrote: »

When people come to this country to avail of everything this society has to offer it is only fair that they play by the rules of it and make some compromises.

Why do you assume all Muslims are not Irish? I am Irish, my daughter is Irish. What if she wants to wear hijab? Will you bend the rules for her as she is Irish?

irishconvert · 14-04-2012 2:44pm

Old Tom wrote: »

If I go to Muslim countries I respect their culture. If they come to my place, I expect them to respect mine.

As simple as that.

What Muslim countries have you been to?

If you say you respected their culture then you must have:
- Abstained from alcohol for the entire duration of your visit
- Did not take off your t-shirt or wear shorts above your knee in public, this includes your hotel swimming pool
- Did not eat any pork products

Is this the case?

The county you were in most likely made exceptions for you and tourists like you, you would be allowed to do any of the above. But if you respect their culture as you say you do, then you wouldn't have.

old_aussie · 14-04-2012 2:45pm

dlofnep wrote: »

No, we don't live in a fascist state. We also don't allow religion as an excuse to bypass laws and regulations. That has nothing to do with fascism I'm afraid. The law of the land is above all. If you don't respect the law of the land, you're not obliged to live here.

That's exactly right, why should I have to sit a certain way in public due to some religious crap.

Religion has no place in public, where the law prevails.

They can do what the like in the privacy of their own homes or church/moske etc.

Nodin · 14-04-2012 2:49pm

old_aussie wrote: »

That's exactly right, why should I have to sit a certain way in public due to some religious crap.

..............

...sez the man who deliberatly provokes minorities.

sheesh · 14-04-2012 2:55pm

Heres a thought for you all

I could spend months growing a fabulous beard are saying that i would have to shave it off for this id card?

Bullseye1 · 14-04-2012 3:00pm

irishconvert wrote: »

If you go to many Muslim countries, you are allowed to drink alcohol although it is against Islam. So they are accommodating your culture.

Ah now come on they absolutely do not accommodate other cultures. Western women are expected to dress conservatively and cover up.

If your a Christian you can not have a crucifix visible.

Drinking is done in the home and not public houses.

Nodin · 14-04-2012 3:01pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Ah now come on they absolutely do not accommodate other cultures. Western women are expected to dress conservatively and cover up.

If your a Christian you can not have a crucifix visible.

Drinking is done in the home and not public houses.

...where?

PhoenixParker · 14-04-2012 3:31pm

It's quite simple.

There is a rule - your head should be clearly visible in the photograph and unobstructed by glasses, headbands, hats. etc.
Leaving aside any religious beliefs, the rule is either necessary or unnecessary.

To make a good visual ID from a photograph, what is the best system?
I would argue that the best system is for everybody to provide a photo that clearly shows their face and head, unobstructed by any adornments.

Since we've worked out the goal of the photo, and the requirements for it to meet that goal, religious beliefs are utterly irrelevant. You don't get to provide a substandard photo simply because you have a religious belief about head coverings. The photo needs to provide a clear unobstructed view of the face and head, and should do that without regard to religious beliefs.

On the other hand, you might decide that photos don't need to be of such high standards. A visual ID is perfectly possible when the photographed faces and heads are masked by certain levels of adornments, e.g. glasses, hats, hoodies or hijabs.

If that is the case then anyone who wishes to provide a photo within the requisite guidelines should be allowed to do so, whatever their reason. If the goal of providing a photo is met when you're wearing a hijab, then it's also met when I'm wearing a hoodie. There is no need to allow for a religious differentiation.

The rule should be for everyone, or no one. Religion shouldn't be brought into it.

Mickeroo · 14-04-2012 3:42pm

Chances are they'll be wearing the Hijab in public at all times, so it makes more sense for them to wear it in the photo.

Grayson · 14-04-2012 3:52pm

PhoenixParker wrote: »

The rule should be for everyone, or no one. Religion shouldn't be brought into it.

I can see you've thought that out. So by your thinking, all women in saudi should wear a burka and do exactly whatever a man tells them. Because it's the law. The rule is there for everyone. And it really doesn't even matter what religion/culture they're from.

PhoenixParker · 14-04-2012 4:04pm

No. Saudi has a very different system for making laws to us. Their legal system is based on islamic religious law. Our legal system is based on democracy, individual freedom and individual rights.

What they do is completely irrelevant to what we do. Tit for tat law making or comparison's are simply ridiculous.

We make rules for our citizens based on our needs as a society. Generally speaking we try to make them as few, as unrestrictive and as equal as possible. The rules we make are to achieve a specific outcome be it big (don't kill people) or small (provide a photo that meets these guidelines so we can identify you).

The rule either is necessary or it isn't. If it's necessary, it should apply to everyone, we're equal citizens of a democracy. If it's not then it needs to be revisited. Allowing little loopholes here and there for religion is to my mind lazy practice. Get to the heart of the rule and the problem that's arising and if it's appropriate fix that.

BornToKill · 14-04-2012 4:07pm

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

This is supposed to be a secular state, and personally I think anyone's religious perferences/dictates should take second place to that.

When did that happen? I totally didn't get that memo. Ever looked through the constitution?

Old Tom · 14-04-2012 4:12pm

later12 wrote: »

Hijab free GNIB cards are your "culture"?

Where did I say that? Does obsessive "tolerance" completely blind you?
My culture is NOT to cover the face, as it is reserved mostly for criminals.

End of story in this thread, first of all - it's not gonna end well. Second of all - it's pointless.

irishconvert · 15-04-2012 12:23am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

irishconvert wrote: »

If you go to many Muslim countries, you are allowed to drink alcohol although it is against Islam. So they are accommodating your culture.

Ah now come on they absolutely do not accommodate other cultures. Western women are expected to dress conservatively and cover up.

If your a Christian you can not have a crucifix visible.

Drinking is done in the home and not public houses.

You have not been to Egypt. Malaysia or Turkey then.

wendell borton · 15-04-2012 8:37am

irishconvert wrote: »

Why do you assume all Muslims are not Irish? I am Irish, my daughter is Irish. What if she wants to wear hijab? Will you bend the rules for her as she is Irish?

The law should be blind irrespective of nationality, faith or ethnicisity.

DonQuay1 · 15-04-2012 9:57am

hondasam wrote: »

Is wearing a balaclava part of non Muslim culture ?

Wearing Balaclava: In certain parts of Ireland and under certain conditions it is part of non-muslim culture.

Wearing headscarf: In certain parts of the World and under certain conditions it is part of muslim culture.

Is that ok?

As already stated - no use taking a photo for an ID card if you can only see the eyes. (And yes - I'd be of the opinion that hair should be exposed too. It's a very distinguishing feature after all - as are the ears.) For example, say if you were a ginger (I love Gingers!) - wouldn't it be relavent?

Nodin · 15-04-2012 10:27am

DonQuay1 wrote: »

Wearing Balaclava: In certain parts of Ireland and under certain conditions it is part of non-muslim culture.

Wearing headscarf: In certain parts of the World and under certain conditions it is part of muslim culture.

Is that ok?

As already stated - no use taking a photo for an ID card if you can only see the eyes. (And yes - I'd be of the opinion that hair should be exposed too. It's a very distinguishing feature after all - as are the ears.) For example, say if you were a ginger (I love Gingers!) - wouldn't it be relavent?

Nobody has suggested that only the eyes be visible.

Bullseye1 · 15-04-2012 10:28am

irishconvert wrote: »

You have not been to Egypt. Malaysia or Turkey then.

I have actually. How about Iran, Iraq, Syari, SA, Dubai, Pakistan etc.

Cork24 · 15-04-2012 10:30am

Dont Take it Fully off for this picture you can go back to where you come from..

One less person sucking this Country Dry with benefits !

It about time this Government Stood up and start placing people on planes and sending them home or do what the UK does give them Butter Vouchers

were giving them money only for them to send it home and get their family over here and claim..

I remember up in the Airport Hotel, All the Muslims staying in their wanted their meals after sunset but the Kitchen was Closed they Riot the hole place and stood out in the Middle of the Road blocking traffic Staff Members where attacked I would have Shipped every person in that Hotel out of this Country no matter if they were in the Riot or not !

You come into our home land and take our opened arms with welcome and do this !

Some Africans wouldnt stay in a House in Cork before as they said why should they live in a 3 bed room house they would live in better back home "Yeah Right" they should have being f**ked out aswell

Nodin · 15-04-2012 10:36am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I have actually. How about Iran, Iraq, Syari, SA, Dubai, Pakistan etc.

There are bars and drink available in Syria, Dubai, Iraq......

Is there some point you're trying to make?

Nodin · 15-04-2012 10:40am

Cork24 wrote: »

Dont Take it Fully off for this picture you can go back to where you come from..

One less person sucking this Country Dry with benefits !

It about time this Government Stood up and start placing people on planes and sending them home or do what the UK does give them Butter Vouchers

were giving them money only for them to send it home and get their family over here and claim..

I remember up in the Airport Hotel, All the Muslims staying in their wanted their meals after sunset but the Kitchen was Closed they Riot the hole place and stood out in the Middle of the Road blocking traffic Staff Members where attacked I would have Shipped every person in that Hotel out of this Country no matter if they were in the Riot or not !

You come into our home land and take our opened arms with welcome and do this !

Some Africans wouldnt stay in a House in Cork before as they said why should they live in a 3 bed room house they would live in better back home "Yeah Right" they should have being f**ked out aswell

You left out 'free cars' and a rant about single mothers.

Don't suppose you have a source for the story about the Africans and the one about the Airport hotel?

dr.bollocko · 15-04-2012 10:48am

Cork24 wrote: »

Dont Take it Fully off for this picture you can go back to where you come from..

One less person sucking this Country Dry with benefits !

It about time this Government Stood up and start placing people on planes and sending them home or do what the UK does give them Butter Vouchers

were giving them money only for them to send it home and get their family over here and claim..

I remember up in the Airport Hotel, All the Muslims staying in their wanted their meals after sunset but the Kitchen was Closed they Riot the hole place and stood out in the Middle of the Road blocking traffic Staff Members where attacked I would have Shipped every person in that Hotel out of this Country no matter if they were in the Riot or not !

You come into our home land and take our opened arms with welcome and do this !

Some Africans wouldnt stay in a House in Cork before as they said why should they live in a 3 bed room house they would live in better back home "Yeah Right" they should have being f**ked out aswell

Seeing as your rant is not in any way on topic and you're simply using this thread to bash minorities and spout bull**** I have gone ahead and banned you.

senordingdong · 15-04-2012 10:55am

I think the pasta strainer is definitely the way forward.

later12 · 15-04-2012 1:11pm

Old Tom wrote: »

Where did I say that? Does obsessive "tolerance" completely blind you?
My culture is NOT to cover the face, as it is reserved mostly for criminals.

But these objections did not centre around covering the face as far as I am aware - the Irish Times article expressly says the objection is not to the niqaab, but to the regular hijab which amounts to a headscarf, in the vernacular.

Pretty much as the same thing my Irish mother wears when she's tending to poultry. Are you opposed to that too?

DonQuay1 wrote: »

As already stated - no use taking a photo for an ID card if you can only see the eyes.

The GNIB card is not an ID card.

It contains biometric information (fingerprints) and the individual's immigration history for Ireland. The individual is required to present a passport, with relevant Visa stamp, to prove his or her identity and eligibility for leave to study, work, or take up residence in the state.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 15-04-2012 1:20pm

My religion requires that I always wear this.

http://www.electricavenueonline.net/Images/Web%20Site%20Pics/Accessories/green_bodysuit.jpg

It's my culture. Therefore I get my way and I'm above the law.

Show Time · 15-04-2012 2:05pm

Cork24 wrote: »

Dont Take it Fully off for this picture you can go back to where you come from..

One less person sucking this Country Dry with benefits !

It about time this Government Stood up and start placing people on planes and sending them home or do what the UK does give them Butter Vouchers

were giving them money only for them to send it home and get their family over here and claim..

I remember up in the Airport Hotel, All the Muslims staying in their wanted their meals after sunset but the Kitchen was Closed they Riot the hole place and stood out in the Middle of the Road blocking traffic Staff Members where attacked I would have Shipped every person in that Hotel out of this Country no matter if they were in the Riot or not !

You come into our home land and take our opened arms with welcome and do this !

Some Africans wouldnt stay in a House in Cork before as they said why should they live in a 3 bed room house they would live in better back home "Yeah Right" they should have being f**ked out aswell

if you want to blame anyone look no further than Mary Robinson as she opened the door first day to let them in.

Freddie59 · 15-04-2012 2:07pm

Cork24 wrote: »

Dont Take it Fully off for this picture you can go back to where you come from..

One less person sucking this Country Dry with benefits !

It about time this Government Stood up and start placing people on planes and sending them home or do what the UK does give them Butter Vouchers

were giving them money only for them to send it home and get their family over here and claim..

I remember up in the Airport Hotel, All the Muslims staying in their wanted their meals after sunset but the Kitchen was Closed they Riot the hole place and stood out in the Middle of the Road blocking traffic Staff Members where attacked I would have Shipped every person in that Hotel out of this Country no matter if they were in the Riot or not !

You come into our home land and take our opened arms with welcome and do this !

Some Africans wouldnt stay in a House in Cork before as they said why should they live in a 3 bed room house they would live in better back home "Yeah Right" they should have being f**ked out aswell

Ah but sure the protectors of "cultures" will try to convince you that's an urban myth.....

lividduck · 15-04-2012 2:08pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

Ah but sure the do-gooders and protectors of "cultures" will try to convince you that's an urban myth.....

It is an urban myth!

Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

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