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Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

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Comments

  • #1142
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    bubblypop wrote: »
    to be fair both the GRA and AGSI have called for an independant Garda Authority to take over promotions in An Garda Siochana, to take away the political appointments that currently goes on.

    John Redmond behaved atrociously over the GSOC bugging affair. He said that Simon O'Brien should "consider his position". He had no business, or authority to make any such statement - but the fact that he did spoke volumes.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-staff-chief-calls-on-obrien-to-resign-258504.html


  • #1143
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    bubblypop wrote: »
    to be fair both the GRA and AGSI have called for an independant Garda Authority to take over promotions in An Garda Siochana, to take away the political appointments that currently goes on.

    They still didn't support the whistleblowers though, even if they disagreed with some of the WB's methods, surely they would have recognised the good they did.


  • #1144
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    infacteh wrote: »
    They were going to pass a motion of no confidence at one of their conferences, but withdrew at last minute. I can only assume they were bullied and/or threatened by the Commissioner into withdrawing it.

    I presume they learned their lesson not to do such disgusting insubordinate acts!

    It suited AGSI and GRA to support Callinan (and even Shatter) recently. They had common enemies in GSOC and the whistleblowers. It's all blown wide open now though and who knows what will happen. I really can't see Shatter surviving this though. Ultimately the real winners will hopefully be the public, the ordinary rank and file members of AGS and GSOC.


  • #1145
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    infacteh wrote: »
    They were going to pass a motion of no confidence at one of their conferences, but withdrew at last minute. I can only assume they were bullied and/or threatened by the Commissioner into withdrawing it.

    I presume they learned their lesson not to do such disgusting insubordinate acts!

    Thinking about a no confidence motion and actually putting it to the vote are two different things, action speaks volumes.


  • #1146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    They still didn't support the whistleblowers though, even if they disagreed with some of the WB's methods, surely they would have recognised the good they did.

    just because they didnt come out publically and say anything doesnt mean they dont agree with the whistleblowers.

    what you have to remember is GRA and AGSI are all Gardai, they HAVE to wait until they have ALL the evidence is produced before coming out on one side or the other.

    they cant just stand up and back someone who alleges something without the evidence to back it up.
    and by evidence, it means waiting for enquiries/independent reports to come in, so they have all the facts in front of them, then they can come out and say something.

    it would be a LOT worse if representative associations were just picking sides without waiting to see all the evidence.
    im sure after they get to read independent reports they will make a statement.

    and you have no idea what supports they are giving to anyone behind the scenes.


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  • #1147
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    bubblypop wrote: »
    just because they didnt come out publically and say anything doesnt mean they dont agree with the whistleblowers.

    what you have to remember is GRA and AGSI are all Gardai, they HAVE to wait until they have ALL the evidence is produced before coming out on one side or the other.

    they cant just stand up and back someone who alleges something without the evidence to back it up.
    and by evidence, it means waiting for enquiries/independent reports to come in, so they have all the facts in front of them, then they can come out and say something.

    it would be a LOT worse if representative associations were just picking sides without waiting to see all the evidence.
    im sure after they get to read independent reports they will make a statement.

    and you have no idea what supports they are giving to anyone behind the scenes.


    hey cant just stand up and back someone who alleges something without the evidence to back it up.
    and by evidence, it means waiting for enquiries/independent reports to come in, so they have all the facts in front of them, then they can come out and say something.

    Eg Claire Daly.


  • #1148
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    hey cant just stand up and back someone who alleges something without the evidence to back it up.
    and by evidence, it means waiting for enquiries/independent reports to come in, so they have all the facts in front of them, then they can come out and say something.

    Eg Claire Daly.


    please explain this?
    when did the GRA or AGSI ever say that Clare Daly was guilty of any offence?


  • #1149
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    bubblypop wrote: »
    just because they didnt come out publically and say anything doesnt mean they dont agree with the whistleblowers.

    what you have to remember is GRA and AGSI are all Gardai, they HAVE to wait until they have ALL the evidence is produced before coming out on one side or the other.

    they cant just stand up and back someone who alleges something without the evidence to back it up.
    and by evidence, it means waiting for enquiries/independent reports to come in, so they have all the facts in front of them, then they can come out and say something.

    it would be a LOT worse if representative associations were just picking sides without waiting to see all the evidence.
    im sure after they get to read independent reports they will make a statement.

    and you have no idea what supports they are giving to anyone behind the scenes.

    You started a thread in AH casting aspersions on the whistleblowers! They have since been officially vindicated and the bulk of their assertions have been proven - but the public knew this all along. The Whistleblowers were ostracised and bullied by fellow members of AGS and received no support whatsoever from their representative bodies. You are now giving the same line as Redmond and rowing back and trying to say that you support the Whistleblowers!

    The GRA, AGSI, you and a lot of members of AGS do not support the Whistleblowers, and this is a problem that has yet to be addressed.


  • #1150
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bajer101 wrote: »
    You started a thread in AH casting aspersions on the whistleblowers! They have since been officially vindicated and the bulk of their assertions have been proven - but the public knew this all along. The Whistleblowers were ostracised and bullied by fellow members of AGS and received no support whatsoever from their representative bodies. You are now giving the same line as Redmond and rowing back and trying to say that you support the Whistleblowers!

    The GRA, AGSI, you and a lot of members of AGS do not support the Whistleblowers, and this is a problem that has yet to be addressed.

    no, im not saying i support them.
    im not saying that at all, i dont know ALL the details.

    i dont know that they did everything they could before they went to TDs, or if they just couldnt be bothered waiting for the Garda authorities to do something.
    i am not aware whether they actually did things right or not.

    all im saying is that the GRA and AGSI could not come out and support people without having all the full facts themselves.
    and like i said, you have no idea what the GRA and AGSI were doing behind the scenes.

    im not rowing back, not at all. but if they are shown to have fully followed proceedures and had no other option then to go to TDs then ill have no problem saying they were right.
    and ill say fair play to them for doing what they did.
    but ill wait for all the evidence thanks.


  • #1151
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    bubblypop wrote: »
    please explain this?
    when did the GRA or AGSI ever say that Clare Daly was guilty of any offence?

    It was members of those organisations that decided to take her away in handcuffs over a suspected drink drive charge (when she was actually under the limit). You know that handcuffing a suspect for this charge is not normal protocol. It was also members who leaked the info to RTE.

    On another note, I wonder how long it will be before the "missing" file on Shatter's breathalyser/asthma incident suddenly surface? This evening's warning shot from Callinan has probably made Shatter realise that the report is on its way, so I'd say he will resign before it is leaked.


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  • #1152
    kerry4sam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,127 ✭✭✭✭kerry4sam


    bubblypop wrote: »
    just because they didnt come out publically and say anything doesnt mean they dont agree with the whistleblowers.

    what you have to remember is GRA and AGSI are all Gardai, they HAVE to wait until they have ALL the evidence is produced before coming out on one side or the other.

    they cant just stand up and back someone who alleges something without the evidence to back it up.
    and by evidence, it means waiting for enquiries/independent reports to come in, so they have all the facts in front of them, then they can come out and say something.

    it would be a LOT worse if representative associations were just picking sides without waiting to see all the evidence.
    im sure after they get to read independent reports they will make a statement.

    and you have no idea what supports they are giving to anyone behind the scenes.

    Well this is utter tripe! Have a look online for reportings of which their are many on the views of the GRA on the Garda Reserves from day#1. NO way in Gods name did they wait for any evidence to prove their views that the Garda Reserves should not be there. No way!

    Have a lickle lookie right here from 2006 for example and those views were materialised in at least two stations that I know of (can speak of personally) ; here and a tweet from 2011 right here.

    From Oct 2nd 2006
    PJ Stone, the General Secretary of the Garda Representative Association (GRA), went over the top in his statement warning that his organisation would continue to oppose the new reserve, whose members would end up being hated and despised.
    taken from the Examiner linkie above.

    Thanks for reading,
    kerry4sam


  • #1153
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    Enda Kenny was informed of the recording of all phone calls on Sunday but didn't ring Alan Shatter until yesterday ?? Doesn't make sense !!!!

    The letter from the AGs office to the Dept of Justice was hand delivered and was to be given directly to the Minister - supposedly this didn't happen. If Alan Shatter didn't get the letter until yesterday, what way does this man run his department.

    The right to a fair trial which includes among others pre trial rights, including the right to consel and all the principles that this right infers have been breached by these recordings.
    The rights of employees e.g. civil servant office staff, may also have been breached. Personal phone calls which should never have been recorded let alone held is mind boggling.
    Alan Shatter is a legal expert, whats going on here?


  • #1154
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    bubblypop wrote: »
    just because they didnt come out publically and say anything doesnt mean they dont agree with the whistleblowers.

    what you have to remember is GRA and AGSI are all Gardai, they HAVE to wait until they have ALL the evidence is produced before coming out on one side or the other.

    they cant just stand up and back someone who alleges something without the evidence to back it up.
    and by evidence, it means waiting for enquiries/independent reports to come in, so they have all the facts in front of them, then they can come out and say something.

    it would be a LOT worse if representative associations were just picking sides without waiting to see all the evidence.
    im sure after they get to read independent reports they will make a statement.

    and you have no idea what supports they are giving to anyone behind the scenes.

    The only support from the GRA came from Wilson in his stance with McCabe.
    I believe you when you say the AGSI want senior positions appointed independently of the Govt. but only because it affects the promotion opportunities of it's members.

    The whsitleblowers have been vindicated now so why haven't either come out and said well done lads?


  • #1155
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 15,213 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    bubblypop wrote: »
    just because they didnt come out publically and say anything doesnt mean they dont agree with the whistleblowers.

    what you have to remember is GRA and AGSI are all Gardai, they HAVE to wait until they have ALL the evidence is produced before coming out on one side or the other.

    they cant just stand up and back someone who alleges something without the evidence to back it up.
    and by evidence, it means waiting for enquiries/independent reports to come in, so they have all the facts in front of them, then they can come out and say something.

    it would be a LOT worse if representative associations were just picking sides without waiting to see all the evidence.
    im sure after they get to read independent reports they will make a statement.

    and you have no idea what supports they are giving to anyone behind the scenes.

    So how would you equate all that with john Redmond of AGSI`s statement on natioal T.V. that Simon O Brien of GSOC should consider his position?

    Seems when it comes to protecting themselves from any, even percieved criticism, there`s no problem with making judgements without any facts


  • #1156
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bajer101 wrote: »
    . You know that handcuffing a suspect for this charge is not normal protocol.

    Handcuffing prisoners IS proper protocol. No prisoner, NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE, should be in a patrol car uncuffed.
    Its a matter of safety.

    Do you think Clare Daly should've been treated differently because she is a member of the oireachtas?


  • #1157
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    bubblypop wrote: »
    no, im not saying i support them.
    im not saying that at all, i dont know ALL the details.

    i dont know that they did everything they could before they went to TDs, or if they just couldnt be bothered waiting for the Garda authorities to do something.
    i am not aware whether they actually did things right or not.

    all im saying is that the GRA and AGSI could not come out and support people without having all the full facts themselves.
    and like i said, you have no idea what the GRA and AGSI were doing behind the scenes.

    im not rowing back, not at all. but if they are shown to have fully followed proceedures and had no other option then to go to TDs then ill have no problem saying they were right.
    and ill say fair play to them for doing what they did.
    but ill wait for all the evidence thanks.

    Lest you forget, here's the thread you started in AH:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89123798&postcount=1
    garda whistleblowers. heros or just disgruntled employees??
    lets face it, they seem a bit mad, no?????

    i wasnt allowed out of station because i had a beard, that isnt allowed, so i thought id get my own back on the local chief superintendent.
    i got in trouble in dublin because i shot a gun, from inside a car, straight across the drivers face through a window!!

    the other one, i tape record everyone i speak to!!!!
    paranoid much??????

    and, if im not mistaken, both these guys have accessed peoples private information on the pulse system. against Data Protection no?

    from interviews i've heard, they're a right pair of weirdos!!

    why would the country believe they are great fellows??

    I would say that you are rowing back since that post. It has been shown that they did follow procedures, despite being hampered at every step of the process. While it is somewhat understandable that they didn't receive support from their fellow employees, they should have received support from their representative organisations. "Unions" should defend their members even when they are in the wrong. I think that AGSI and GRA also have cases to answer in all of this.


  • #1158
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 15,213 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Handcuffing prisoners IS proper protocol. No prisoner, NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE, should be in a patrol car uncuffed.
    Its a matter of safety.

    Do you think Clare Daly should've been treated differently because she is a member of the oireachtas?

    Would you have a problem with with NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE having their identity leaked to the media especially when no crime was committed?????


  • #1159
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Handcuffing prisoners IS proper protocol. No prisoner, NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE, should be in a patrol car uncuffed.
    Its a matter of safety.

    Do you think Clare Daly should've been treated differently because she is a member of the oireachtas?

    You are being extremely disingenuous here. A suspect for a minor offence, especially one who is obviously not a threat, is absolutely not handcuffed - and you know it. I am sure that you have had suspects in the back of your car and have not handcuffed them, and I am sure that they were more of a risk than a female TD who had a glass of whiskey. Handcuffing Daly and leaking the info of the arrest was sending a message and it stinks. As an ordinary member of AGS you should not be trying to defend it.


  • #1160
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Handcuffing prisoners IS proper protocol. No prisoner, NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE, should be in a patrol car uncuffed.
    Its a matter of safety.

    Do you think Clare Daly should've been treated differently because she is a member of the oireachtas?

    Nobody is ever handcuffed if taken in over a drink driving offence, only if they are aggressive. Maybe the two heros involved should be brought to book.


  • #1161
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    Nobody is ever handcuffed if taken in over a drink driving offence, only if they are aggressive. Maybe the two heros involved should be brought to book.

    You are wrong.

    No one knows how people will react, they may be quiet to start with and then turn violent.

    Its a question of safety. If you're driving a patrol car, you are responsible, if an uncuffed prisoner kicks off in the back and interferes in your driving, what happens?
    What if the prisoner makes a run for it, opens the door whilst you are driving and falls out on the road?
    Who do you think they will sue over their injuries??
    The tax payer will pay that compensation.

    The best practise is not to discriminate, all prisoners should be cuffed, for safety of everyone.


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  • #1162
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bajer101 wrote: »
    You are being extremely disingenuous here. A suspect for a minor offence, especially one who is obviously not a threat, is absolutely not handcuffed - and you know it. I am sure that you have had suspects in the back of your car and have not handcuffed them, and I am sure that they were more of a risk than a female TD who had a glass of whiskey. Handcuffing Daly and leaking the info of the arrest was sending a message and it stinks. As an ordinary member of AGS you should not be trying to defend it.

    As I said, any prisoner in the back of a car I am driving, will have handcuffs on them, for everyones safety.

    When it comes to leaking information, absolutely not, no ones private into should be leaked. No matter who they are.


  • #1163
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    bubblypop wrote: »
    You are wrong.

    No one knows how people will react, they may be quiet to start with and then turn violent.

    Its a question of safety. If you're driving a patrol car, you are responsible, if an uncuffed prisoner kicks off in the back and interferes in your driving, what happens?
    What if the prisoner makes a run for it, opens the door whilst you are driving and falls out on the road?
    Who do you think they will sue over their injuries??
    The tax payer will pay that compensation.

    The best practise is not to discriminate, all prisoners should be cuffed, for safety of everyone.

    I heard a retired guy on SOR this morning, and listening to the bull$hite he was talking I can understand where you are coming from, the questions he was asked he didn't answer, but instead went off a rant.


  • #1164
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    bubblypop, a bit of advice for you (that M. Callinan should have followed)

    'When you are in a hole...stop digging'.

    If you see A. Shatter, pass it on to him too, he needs it.


  • #1165
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 15,213 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    bubblypop wrote: »
    You are wrong.

    No one knows how people will react, they may be quiet to start with and then turn violent.

    Its a question of safety. If you're driving a patrol car, you are responsible, if an uncuffed prisoner kicks off in the back and interferes in your driving, what happens?
    What if the prisoner makes a run for it, opens the door whilst you are driving and falls out on the road?
    Who do you think they will sue over their injuries??
    The tax payer will pay that compensation.

    The best practise is not to discriminate, all prisoners should be cuffed, for safety of everyone.

    For extra safety maybe leg irons would be an idea. Lol.


  • #1166
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    bubblypop wrote: »
    no, im not saying i support them.
    im not saying that at all, i dont know ALL the details.

    i dont know that they did everything they could before they went to TDs, or if they just couldnt be bothered waiting for the Garda authorities to do something.
    i am not aware whether they actually did things right or not.

    all im saying is that the GRA and AGSI could not come out and support people without having all the full facts themselves.
    and like i said, you have no idea what the GRA and AGSI were doing behind the scenes.

    im not rowing back, not at all. but if they are shown to have fully followed proceedures and had no other option then to go to TDs then ill have no problem saying they were right.
    and ill say fair play to them for doing what they did.
    but ill wait for all the evidence thanks.

    It has been obvious all along to us mere mortals that nothing was going to be done to adequately investigate the WB's claims, Callinan from day one tried to downplay the whole thing while simultaneously vilifying both men.
    O'Mahoney had no interest in interviewing them and his investigation findings were an extremely diluted version of the truth and you still haven't enough evidence.
    You seem so determined to defend the perpetrators of corruption, abuses of power and malpractise using the "they didn't follow procedeure" arguement.They have been vindicated by the inspectorate report does that mean nothing to you?
    The findings of the Morris tribunal were not accepted by Callinan so facts to AGS only seem to be important when it's to do with other people and not themselves.


  • #1167
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    bubblypop wrote: »
    You are wrong.

    No one knows how people will react, they may be quiet to start with and then turn violent.

    Its a question of safety. If you're driving a patrol car, you are responsible, if an uncuffed prisoner kicks off in the back and interferes in your driving, what happens?
    What if the prisoner makes a run for it, opens the door whilst you are driving and falls out on the road?
    Who do you think they will sue over their injuries??
    The tax payer will pay that compensation.

    The best practise is not to discriminate, all prisoners should be cuffed, for safety of everyone.
    bubblypop wrote: »
    As I said, any prisoner in the back of a car I am driving, will have handcuffs on them, for everyones safety.

    When it comes to leaking information, absolutely not, no ones private into should be leaked. No matter who they are.

    No, you are wrong. All suspects absolutely do not get cuffed - and you know it. Discretion of the member comes into play here, and if ever there was a case where a suspect should not be cuffed, it was Daly. A female TD who had consumed a very small amount of alcohol. In fact, most people who are picked up for non-violent crimes are not cuffed. The AGS member uses his expert judgement and will know that the suspect poses no threat. They know that cuffing a suspect when it is unnecessary will only serve to exacerbate the situation and make the suspect less likely to co-operate.

    I think I know what is going on here. You are trying to make out that cuffing a suspect is at the discretion of the arresting officer and therefore there was no malpractice involved. I call bullsh1t and suspect your motives. If you were an ordinary member of AGS you wouldn't defend this. You seem to be a bit too politically astute to be a rank and filer.


  • #1168
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    bubblypop wrote: »
    As I said, any prisoner in the back of a car I am driving, will have handcuffs on them, for everyones safety.

    Then, according a recent Supreme Court decision, your arrests are unlawful - you must individually assess each situation and you cannot have a policy of cuffing everyone:

    The Supreme Court has ruled in a majority decision that a man’s arrest for drink driving was unlawful because he was unjustifiably handcuffed after arrest on foot of a Garda sergeant’s own routine policy of handcuffing drink-driving suspects.

    The decision means a certificate showing the man had failed breath tests cannot be used as evidence and he must be acquitted.

    A District Court judge had asked the Supreme Court to rule if he was entitled to find the man’s handcuffing following arrest was unjustified where the arresting garda did not believe the man was likely to resist arrest but was rather implementing his standard personal policy of handcuffing all drink-driving suspects.


  • #1169
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    bubblypop wrote: »
    What if the prisoner makes a run for it, opens the door whilst you are driving and falls out on the road?

    The best practise is not to discriminate, all prisoners should be cuffed, for safety of everyone.
    Handcuffs will not stop someone from opening a car door. Do you shackle them to a fixed point in the car? Aren't there 'child locks' on garda cars?


  • #1170
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Who do you think they will sue over their injuries??
    The tax payer will pay that compensation.


    It's a good job we don't have to pay for all these retired judges being given new roles as a result of garda misconduct!


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  • #1171
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bajer101 wrote: »
    No, you are wrong. All suspects absolutely do not get cuffed - and you know it. Discretion of the member comes into play here, and if ever there was a case where a suspect should not be cuffed, it was Daly. A female TD who had consumed a very small amount of alcohol. In fact, most people who are picked up for non-violent crimes are not cuffed. The AGS member uses his expert judgement and will know that the suspect poses no threat. They know that cuffing a suspect when it is unnecessary will only serve to exacerbate the situation and make the suspect less likely to co-operate.

    I think I know what is going on here. You are trying to make out that cuffing a suspect is at the discretion of the arresting officer and therefore there was no malpractice involved. I call bullsh1t and suspect your motives. If you were an ordinary member of AGS you wouldn't defend this. You seem to be a bit too politically astute to be a rank and filer.

    If you were a driver of patrol cars you would be aware of that fact that you ARE NOT INSURED and if an accident occurred because you were driving with a prisoner not correctly restrained, if there was an accident, you can personally be sued.

    Apart from the fact that I wouldn't want to be responsible for causing injury to any other person or myself, I would not want to be sued and lose my house/ money I have, .
    Its all about safety and as far as I'm concerned if a prisoner is in my car then they will be correctly restrained.
    NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE.

    your post at the beginning says people are cuffed at the discretion of the guard, then you try to imply at the end if your post that its a bad thing for the guard to use discretion. Make up your mind!
    I'm far from political!


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