Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

What a spineless nation...

12346»

Comments

  • #252
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    Is that good or bad? How much should it cost to run per year?


    I'm getting the impression in this thread that people can't construct a good argument against reporting social welfare fraud, so are constructing (bad) arguments against other unrelated stuff instead.

    Sounds like a lot to me.
    €3 million on tech support sounds like a lot.
    Point is it was meant to cost between €7-€9 million to set up and depending on who you listen to the figure is between €180-€220 million.

    This thread has turned into something else, It started with the OP pointing out that neighbours and friends were 'ratting' on each other to the state but at the same time allowing corruption from the 'elites' in our society.
    This is the real problem in Ireland, not welfare fraud.....


  • #253
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    Red_Wake wrote: »
    Except the Mahon Tribunal took place over a number of years.

    Presumably the 300m fraud in social welfare is per annum, and thus is more than 3 times larger than the cost of the Mahon Tribunal.

    Ok so, it's not on par so not a fair comparison. The mahon tribunal was due out for release in 2007 but it was defered due to the then election.
    Five years on there were numerous release dates but it keeps getting defered. How much money was spent throughout the past five years just sitting on that? 5 million? 10 million? More? How much longer are they going to hang onto it? Another 5 years? How much more millions will be spent?

    This thread has shown me that fraud is fraud no matter what. Now, correct me if I'm wrong because that tribunal started god knows when probably when I was a teenager with no political interest but isn't the tribunal a tribunal to look into fraudulent expenses by politicians?

    One group of fraudsters is protected, the rest have to abide by the laws of the land.

    People here are all too happy to rat on a neighbour suspected of fraud no matter how small yet sit idly back and allow the mahon tribunal to continue.


  • #254
    jewett
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭jewett


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    One group of fraudsters is protected, the rest have to abide by the laws of the land.

    People here are all too happy to rat on a neighbour suspected of fraud no matter how small yet sit idly back and allow the mahon tribunal to continue.


    Well said ILS.


  • #255
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Spinless irish.
    I'm Irish. Are you calling me spineless?

    I think you'll find he called us "spinless", which probably means that unlike the vested interests and ranters, we don't spin the facts......I'd view that as a compliment if it's what he meant.


  • #256
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    Ok so, it's not on par so not a fair comparison. The mahon tribunal was due out for release in 2007 but it was defered due to the then election.
    Five years on there were numerous release dates but it keeps getting defered. How much money was spent throughout the past five years just sitting on that? 5 million? 10 million? More? How much longer are they going to hang onto it? Another 5 years? How much more millions will be spent?

    This thread has shown me that fraud is fraud no matter what. Now, correct me if I'm wrong because that tribunal started god knows when probably when I was a teenager with no political interest but isn't the tribunal a tribunal to look into fraudulent expenses by politicians?

    One group of fraudsters is protected, the rest have to abide by the laws of the land.

    People here are all too happy to rat on a neighbour suspected of fraud no matter how small yet sit idly back and allow the mahon tribunal to continue.

    In fairness, what's the penalty for getting caught? A tenner a week of the dole if you're entitled to it? Imprisonment is extremely rare, bit like tax fraud really.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #257
    Zen65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    jewett wrote: »
    This is like something of what would of happened in East Germany.

    You have described only that some people have been reported for committing an act of fraud, by those of us who must pay for their fraud. This is a far cry from reporting people who hold political beliefs that are contrary to government policy. It is not even slightly like the situation that existed in East Germany.

    The vast majority of crimes are detected because somebody reports them. Why should social welfare fraud be any different?


    Z


  • #258
    alandublin33
    Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭alandublin33


    Dna evidence proved Maggie did it


  • #259
    Red_Wake
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Red_Wake


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    But if it's 300m per annum than let me ask - how exactly is this in anyway a priority given the state's total deficit? This doesn't matter. Your 'man down the road' gaming the system is not the major issue affecting the fortunes of the country - though it is expedient for politicians to make you believe that he is.

    Look after the pennies, and the pounds will look after themselves.

    Not reporting fraud normalises it, getting rid of it's status as taboo, which can't be a good thing.

    IMO, the public service should always be looking to improve cost efficiency at all times.


  • #260
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    This thread has shown me that fraud is fraud no matter what.
    It has?
    ilovesleep wrote: »
    People here are all too happy to rat on a neighbour suspected of fraud no matter how small yet sit idly back and allow the mahon tribunal to continue.
    Clearly it hasn't.


  • #261
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    woodoo wrote: »
    PPARS works fine now

    :D:D:D:D After they threw €200m at it. Wasn't it supposed to cost NINE million?

    Ah.......public sector "efficiency" at its best.


  • Advertisement
  • #262
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    dvpower wrote: »
    Are you saying that just because one part of the public service had a failed IT project, no other part of the public service should be trusted to implement other IT projects?:eek:

    Yes.
    dvpower wrote: »
    There are lots of examples of successful IT projects in the public service, for example, the Revenue ROS and CONTAX systems. Naturally enough, nobody ever hears about the successes.

    At what cost? To the taxpayer?


  • #263
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    dvpower wrote: »
    Is that good or bad? How much should it cost to run per year?


    I'm getting the impression in this thread that people can't construct a good argument against reporting social welfare fraud, so are constructing (bad) arguments against other unrelated stuff instead.

    Yeah, I suppose we have it for a song at €120 grand a WEEK!:rolleyes:


  • #264
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I dont condone fraud but by and large most people on welfare wheter they are defrauding it or not are not massivly well off. There are people on welfare who have had their esb cut off and for all anyone knows a lot of the reported fraud is someone doing the odd nixer. These people are often on the breadline and some people see fit to report them. The major cause of irish anger has been directed at the lowest in society. After having our children raped by the church, our future deystroyed by the banks and politicians amongst the highest paid in europe people had the most problem with petty fraud. I dont have a problem with people reporting fraud but I do when they have a problem with this over the majority of crap that this country has stomached.


  • #265
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Yes.
    Well. I wasn't expecting that answer. Bizarre.
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    At what cost? To the taxpayer?
    Why do you ask? You've already decided based on one failure that the PS shouldn't implement any further IT projects.
    Its back to pencil and paper for our public administration I'm afraid:rolleyes:


  • #266
    mongoman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 669 ✭✭✭mongoman


    tayto lover wrote: »
    It is the duty of every citizen to report crime especially when we are all paying for it.

    Indeed and the size of the bill should prioritise the immediacy of our response. Recently quite a few privileged criminals have landed some big bills on our laps. But since they seem beyond punishment, small-fry really don't interest me at all.


  • #267
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    Well. I wasn't expecting that answer. Bizarre.


    Why do you ask? You've already decided based on one failure that the PS shouldn't implement any further IT projects.
    Its back to pencil and paper for our public administration I'm afraid:rolleyes:
    The same way as it was back to pencil and paper to vote after they wasted, and continue to waste countless millions on the e-voting machines!;)


  • #268
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    mongoman wrote: »
    tayto lover wrote: »
    It is the duty of every citizen to report crime especially when we are all paying for it.

    Indeed and the size of the bill should prioritise the immediacy of our response. Recently quite a few privileged criminals have landed some big bills on our laps. But since they seem beyond punishment, small-fry really don't interest me at all.

    You said it better than I ever could.


  • #269
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    The same way as it was back to pencil and paper to vote after they wasted, and continue to waste countless millions on the e-voting machines!;)
    Not quite sure what point you're attempting to make here.
    "We had a failed voting machine project therefore ....."?


  • #270
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    Not quite sure what point you're attempting to make here.
    "We had a failed voting machine project therefore ....."?

    Just another example of wastage of OUR money in public life/services.

    I didn't hear of anyone being held to account for either of these screwup's.

    The same way that no social welfare officer will be held accountable for paying out more money to people than they were entitled to.

    The same way nobody in public life is ever accountable.

    But hey, let's just get the message out there that everyone on welfare is a scrounger/fraudster and encourage people to watch everything their neighbours are doing/spending and report them if we THINK they have it too easy.

    This is Ireland, my country, in 2012.


  • Advertisement
  • #271
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Just another example of wastage of OUR money in public life/services.

    I didn't hear of anyone being held to account for either of these screwup's.

    The same way that no social welfare officer will be held accountable for paying out more money to people than they were entitled to.

    The same way nobody in public life is ever accountable.

    But hey, let's just get the message out there that everyone on welfare is a scrounger/fraudster and encourage people to watch everything their neighbours are doing/spending and report them if we THINK they have it too easy.

    This is Ireland, my country, in 2012.
    I get it now.
    We haven't been good at making the big fish accountable so we should let the little fish go.

    Makes no sense whatsoever.


  • #272
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    I get it now.
    We haven't been good at making the big fish accountable so we should let the little fish go.

    Makes no sense whatsoever.

    Start at the top / lead by example and all that....


  • #273
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    dvpower wrote: »
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Just another example of wastage of OUR money in public life/services.

    I didn't hear of anyone being held to account for either of these screwup's.

    The same way that no social welfare officer will be held accountable for paying out more money to people than they were entitled to.

    The same way nobody in public life is ever accountable.

    But hey, let's just get the message out there that everyone on welfare is a scrounger/fraudster and encourage people to watch everything their neighbours are doing/spending and report them if we THINK they have it too easy.

    This is Ireland, my country, in 2012.
    I get it now.
    We haven't been good at making the big fish accountable so we should let the little fish go.

    Makes no sense whatsoever.

    Not my sentiments at all. My problem is the there has been a mass of irish running to punish the small fish before the big fish. Its disgusting frankly. Some of the irish turn a blind eye to the massive waste in our system yet run en masse to report the small fries when the government puts the spin on things that social welfare is the enemy of our times.


  • #274
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Not my sentiments at all. My problem is the there has been a mass of irish running to punish the small fish before the big fish. Its disgusting frankly. Some of the irish turn a blind eye to the massive waste in our system yet run en masse to report the small fries when the government puts the spin on things that social welfare is the enemy of our times.
    Do you think the people who reported fraud to the DSP don't want an end to corruption and waste?
    Do you think that some of them might have some information about high end corruption but are keeping quite about it?

    This thread is getting stranger and stranger.


  • #275
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    dvpower wrote: »
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Not my sentiments at all. My problem is the there has been a mass of irish running to punish the small fish before the big fish. Its disgusting frankly. Some of the irish turn a blind eye to the massive waste in our system yet run en masse to report the small fries when the government puts the spin on things that social welfare is the enemy of our times.
    Do you think the people who reported fraud to the DSP don't want an end to corruption and waste?
    Do you think that some of them might have some information about high end corruption but are keeping quite about it?

    This thread is getting stranger and stranger.

    I didnt hear about 15,000 letters of complaints to tds no. I didnt see the same response to dodgy building practices either. Nor do I see a big campaign directed public pensions. I havent seen this level of action directed at any but social welfare.


  • #276
    smokedeels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,883 ✭✭✭smokedeels


    mikom wrote: »
    Would you report your neighbor for smoking a spliff on his back porch?

    It's also the duty of every citizen to pick and choose the laws they agree with.


  • Advertisement
  • #277
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    smokedeels wrote: »
    mikom wrote: »
    Would you report your neighbor for smoking a spliff on his back porch?

    It's also the duty of every citizen to pick and choose the laws they agree with.

    Well ireland should get a medal for that because weve been doing it for years.


  • #278
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I didnt hear about 15,000 letters of complaints to tds no. I didnt see the same response to dodgy building practices either. Nor do I see a big campaign directed public pensions. I havent seen this level of action directed at any but social welfare.
    Being a TD is NOT a crime
    Collecting a pension is NOT a crime
    Stealing my tax money by SW fraud IS a crime, no excuse,no justification. I wonder if someone mugged your wife or mother would you happily excuse them because TDs dont get prosecuted for being elected or retired hospital porters dont get jailed for cashing their pension cheques?
    SW fraudsters are thieves, simple as!


  • #279
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    lividduck wrote: »
    Being a TD is NOT a crime
    Collecting a pension is NOT a crime
    Stealing my tax money by SW fraud IS a crime, no excuse,no justification. I wonder if someone mugged your wife or mother would you happily excuse them because TDs dont get prosecuted for being elected or retired hospital porters dont get jailed for cashing their pension cheques?
    SW fraudsters are thieves, simple as!

    Sorry but in my book giving people massive pensions while telling people on the poverty line to take cuts is criminal. Dodgy building practices is criminal, tds recieving backhanders is criminal. Hell if you want to look at the facts of it there seems to be more outrage over this than the sexual abuses of catholic priests in this country. When you get down to it people in this country have a massive problem with social welfare fraud or not. Half these claims were probraly made in spite.


  • #280
    Jake187
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Jake187


    My view is ...

    If someone reports genuine social welfare fraud? fair enough to that.
    But I can't accept someone reporting a fake frauding claim. All because they hate the person.

    But there is often a grey area in between. Some may report because they "suspected" someone is frauding (without doing some sort of basic homework first, which they should)
    Then, there are others who play the "I suspected" card trying to mask they did it out of malice with NO suspicions.


  • #281
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Jake187 wrote: »
    My view is ...

    If someone reports genuine social welfare fraud? fair enough to that.
    But I can't accept someone reporting a fake frauding claim. All because they hate the person.

    But there is often a grey area in between. Some may report because they "suspected" someone is frauding (without doing some sort of basic homework first, which they should)
    Then, there are others who play the "I suspected" card trying to mask they did it out of malice with NO suspicions.

    I'd be like that. If a guy gets a few days a month doing odd jobs, which is common with so many Construction workers on the dole, I don't think it is worth the administrative hassle to report.

    Some guy claiming away and working full time, worth reporting. He is costing the dole payment, lost taxes and PRSI, claiming Medical cards and the employer is also gaining by not paying PRSI and probably under declaring turnover to compensate, so less Income Tax, PRSI and VAT.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Advertisement
  • #282
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Jake187 wrote: »
    My view is ...

    If someone reports genuine social welfare fraud? fair enough to that.
    But I can't accept someone reporting a fake frauding claim. All because they hate the person.

    But there is often a grey area in between. Some may report because they "suspected" someone is frauding (without doing some sort of basic homework first, which they should)
    Then, there are others who play the "I suspected" card trying to mask they did it out of malice with NO suspicions.

    Thats my view but I dont agree with people reporting a guy for a few nixers ect.


  • #283
    Jake187
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Jake187


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Thats my view but I dont agree with people reporting a guy for a few nixers ect.

    I agree 100%.
    Nothing wrong with nixers. That can apply to someone on the social or someone working. Its only random extra income. For someone to report that, it makes them a very sad, bitter and jealous individual.


  • #284
    Jake187
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Jake187


    To be perfectly honest, Although I am sure I will get a backlash on here for this...
    I couldnt report someone for actual social welfare fraud. Unless they personally did something against me. Something that warrents a reaction. I guess that can be classed as a "fu*k me?, well fu*k you!" attitude. So be it if it is.

    As for why? ...
    Because quite frankly life aint fair. Sadly the state of the world is get what you can. Right and wrong take a backseat.
    But i have seen so much hypocrisy in my life. Many a person going against with what they once said was wrong. I don't know people in this thread. But a person with life experience can know 'people' ... and that is many who are against 'sw fraud' would do the same themselves if they could.

    So I honestly believe this thread is hot air.


  • #285
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Jake187 wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest, Although I am sure I will get a backlash on here for this...
    I couldnt report someone for actual social welfare fraud. Unless they personally did something against me. Something that warrents a reaction. I guess that can be classed as a "fu*k me?, well fu*k you!" attitude. So be it if it is.

    As for why? ...
    Because quite frankly life aint fair. Sadly the state of the world is get what you can. Right and wrong take a backseat.
    But i have seen so much hypocrisy in my life. Many a person going against with what they once said was wrong. I don't know people in this thread. But a person with life experience can know 'people' ... and that is many who are against 'sw fraud' would do the same themselves if they could.

    So I honestly believe this thread is hot air.
    If you saw someone shoplifting or snatching a handbag, would you report that? Or someone bribing a planning official with a few hundred quid to get approval for their attic extension?

    These things don't effect you directly either.


  • #286
    jimaneejeebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭jimaneejeebus


    I think there is a ridiculous amount of people on this thread who missed the OP's point...

    "Meanwhile, when it comes to corrupt politicians, bankers and senior civil servants. These spineless people won't take to the streets. Instead, they hide behind the anonymity of email or text messaging. They will tolerate corruption as long as its done by people in suits. Sickening."


    Some observations....
    We are as a nation incredibly quick to inflict schadenfreude. Perhaps something to do with a wariness and distrust of 'outsiders' or 'foreign interests'? That is probably why we tell everyone who airs any grievance whatsoever to just leave. Get out ye black n tans ....la la la

    We are also a nation incredibly devoid of independent thought. We seem to adore the status quo and paying these very same 'foreign interest' lots of money.

    We are also a nation incredibly enamored by spelling and grammar mistakes and seem to enjoy using these as the crux of all our arguments.


  • #287
    cloptrop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭cloptrop


    lividduck wrote: »
    Me and the OH are up at 6 every morning to go to work, seldom home before 6 in the evening, I dont work and pay tax to benifit Social Welfare fraudsters, I dont care who they are if I know someone is cheating the system, I report them, simple as!
    Its the employers offering black market work that should be getting strung up . I get offered the odd day here and there where I get a half hour lunch break in sometimes a ten or twelve hour day for 80 euro. Its in the hand if I complin he will give it to someone else. If I get caught he will have nothing done to him I will be hung out to dry. If I fell off a ladder Id probably get told to say it happened in a mates house. Iv no tax no insurance , no prsi nothing . I detest the ****e bag that gives me this work but what can I do only take it. Id love for him to put me on the books , he is saving a fortune in prsi , holiday wages etc. But Im the scumbag apparantly because Im forced into this situation .
    If I get caught there will be no investigation into this fella.


Advertisement