Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dvpower · 04-03-2012 2:57pm

goz83 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/landlords-will-pass-on-the-100-household-charge-to-tenants-following-introduction-in-budget-2965638.html

5th and 4th paragraph from the bottom.

This is the journalist conflating two things - the household charge that was to raise €160m and the total amount in tax raises in the budget which was €1.6bn.

The €1.6 bn is also mentioned in the MOU, in the Q4-2011 review and it includes the the Property Tax Household charge, VAT, other indirect taxes, CGT and CAT.

goz83 · 04-03-2012 3:12pm

And there you have where all the confusion is coming from. Either way, the tax is totally wrong as it is supposed to be used for local services, but local services are being cut back. The banks themselves may as well be charging this tax. In a country where you need a license to own a dog, where a 14 year old boy can be imprisoned for having intercourse with a 17 year old girl, where a politician "almost" got a stadium named after himself and where a government is not held to their election promises.....is it really any wonder we are being charged twice and three times over for something we already own?

Groinshot · 04-03-2012 8:01pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

We have been through this "small charge" already. The problem is, its a small charge to get people to register. Then comes the real charge.

But the fact is, by not registering, you don't avoid it. you'll still get stung for it, all in one go though, when you try and move house...

Bruthal · 04-03-2012 8:07pm

Groinshot wrote: »

But the fact is, by not registering, you don't avoid it. you'll still get stung for it, all in one go though, when you try and move house...

There is a difference between avoiding and protesting.

mikom · 04-03-2012 8:11pm

Groinshot wrote: »

But the fact is, by not registering, you don't avoid it. you'll still get stung for it, all in one go though, when you try and move house...

If the charge stands.

Am Chile · 04-03-2012 8:21pm

Out of Interest how many of the anti household tax posters here, have joined and helped out with the local anti household tax campaigns in their local areas?

mikom · 04-03-2012 8:23pm

Am Chile wrote: »

Out of Interest how many of the anti household tax posters here, have joined and helped out with the local anti household tax campaigns in their local areas?

Myself and the brother (Galway region) leafleted and erected public meeting signs so far.

Am Chile · 04-03-2012 8:25pm

mikom wrote: »

Myself and the brother (Galway region) leafleted and erected public meeting signs so far.

So have I in my local area,have you gone out knocking on doors as of yet?

mikom · 04-03-2012 8:30pm

Am Chile wrote: »

So have I in my local area,have you gone out knocking on doors as of yet?

Not since my days on the wren.

Slick50 · 04-03-2012 8:30pm

dvpower wrote: »

You'll be able to quote it so?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0507/1224296378513.html

"The briefing paper for Minister for Finance Michael Noonan had disclosed the EU-IMF programme had committed to a site value tax with a €100 “interim fixed household charge” being introduced in 2012, followed by a “full value-based addition” in 2013.
In the revised draft of the memorandum of understanding (MoU) released last week, a property tax remained as one of the specific tax measures that would be needed in this year’s budget to raise an extra €1.5 billion next year. The MoU stipulates the full site value tax, when introduced in 2013, will raise the charge on each household."

dvpower · 04-03-2012 8:55pm

Slick50 wrote: »

It's in the MOU.

Slick50 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0507/1224296378513.html

"The briefing paper for Minister for Finance Michael Noonan had disclosed the EU-IMF programme had committed to a site value tax with a €100 “interim fixed household charge” being introduced in 2012, followed by a “full value-based addition” in 2013.
In the revised draft of the memorandum of understanding (MoU) released last week, a property tax remained as one of the specific tax measures that would be needed in this year’s budget to raise an extra €1.5 billion next year. The MoU stipulates the full site value tax, when introduced in 2013, will raise the charge on each household."

You said it was in the MOU - can you show me the bit in the MOU please?

goz83 · 04-03-2012 9:11pm

dvpower:

Just so I can get an understanding of where you're coming from, can you confirm your political affiliation and if you are a member of a right wing party?

Rather than picking out "quotes", which you are likely to dismiss anyway, can you confirm if you believe that if this charge is not beaten, that it will remain at €100, or is it more likely to be an average of €800 per house to "fall in line" with the rest of europe?

Can you also agree that the annual average charge for water per house will be €500?

Can you then do the sums, based on the number of houses likely to be included in those catchments for the year 2014?

Can you also do this without asking for sources and quotes?

I would also be very interested to hear where you believe the money would be spent if the taxes pass.

Geuze · 04-03-2012 9:16pm

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/2011/draftmoumay2011.pdf

Here is the MOU with the "troika".

Geuze · 04-03-2012 9:17pm

"Are you going to pay the Household Charge?"

This suggests you have a choice, but you don't.

Taxes are not optional.

You can't choose to not pay VAT.

You can't choose to not pay income tax.

Geuze · 04-03-2012 9:22pm

If I bring my faulty car to a mechanic, I take his advice.

If I feel sick, I go to a doctor and take their advice.

Sociologists / economists / etc have spent 100 years trying to develop better, smarter taxes, and most of them agree that property taxes are better than the alternatives.

All taxes are bad in some sense, nobody likes paying them, but property taxes create less negative distortions than other taxes.

Yet people in Ireland seem to ignore or dismiss all this effort to develop better taxes.

The recent rise in VAT will cost us 100s of millions - yet I see no protest.

Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??

Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.

mikom · 04-03-2012 9:23pm

Geuze wrote: »

"Are you going to pay the Household Charge?"

This suggests you have a choice, but you don't.

Taxes are not optional.

Rent and get the same public services for free........ supposedly.

Bruthal · 04-03-2012 9:32pm

Geuze wrote: »

If I bring my faulty car to a mechanic, I take his advice.

If I feel sick, I go to a doctor and take their advice.

Sociologists / economists / etc have spent 100 years trying to develop better, smarter taxes, and most of them agree that property taxes are better than the alternatives.

All taxes are bad in some sense, nobody likes paying them, but property taxes create less negative distortions than other taxes.

Yet people in Ireland seem to ignore or dismiss all this effort to develop better extra taxes.

The recent rise in VAT will cost us 100s of millions - yet I see no protest.

Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??

Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.

Maybe thats what you meant.

dxhound2005 · 04-03-2012 9:35pm

Geuze wrote: »

If I bring my faulty car to a mechanic, I take his advice.

If I feel sick, I go to a doctor and take their advice.

Sociologists / economists / etc have spent 100 years trying to develop better, smarter taxes, and most of them agree that property taxes are better than the alternatives.

All taxes are bad in some sense, nobody likes paying them, but property taxes create less negative distortions than other taxes.

Yet people in Ireland seem to ignore or dismiss all this effort to develop better taxes.

The recent rise in VAT will cost us 100s of millions - yet I see no protest.

Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??

Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.

This is correct. About 8% of overall taxation was raised from domestic rates prior to their abolition. This has caused nothing but trouble since and it has been unwinding gradually which led to the accusation of double taxation which was just necessary taxation. These are some figures for the old regime:

However, up until the mid 1970s at least, Local Authorities commanded greater discretion over their revenue generating capabilities. For instance, in 1976 local authorities generated sixty-two per cent of their revenues locally and were only dependent on government grants for thirty-eight per cent of their overall revenue. The situation changed dramatically following the removal of the onus of paying domestic rates, a liability which was transferred to central government. The subsequent decade witnessed a very high degree of reliance on central funding by local authorities. By 1982 local authorities were dependent on government funding for sixty-seven per cent of their revenue with other sources and rates making up the remaining thirty-three per cent.

But if some party at the next election promises to do away with the property tax people will flock to them (judging by the majority opinion in this thread) and we will be back to square one if they are elected.

dvpower · 04-03-2012 9:39pm

goz83 wrote: »

Just so I can get an understanding of where you're coming from, can you confirm your political affiliation and if you are a member of a right wing party?

I don't see the relevance Mr. McCarthy.;)

goz83 wrote: »

Rather than picking out "quotes", which you are likely to dismiss anyway, can you confirm if you believe that if this charge is not beaten, that it will remain at €100, or is it more likely to be an average of €800 per house to "fall in line" with the rest of europe?

It won't remain at €100 - that much is somewhere in the MOU. I have no idea how much it will increase by. I suspect that the increase next year will be very small, until the property tax that is due to supersede it is in full operation. I wouldn't be surprised, if over the next 5 years, it was increased 4 fold, but thats just speculation on my part.

goz83 wrote: »

Can you also agree that the annual average charge for water per house will be €500?

I've no idea at all. This thread is about the household charge.

goz83 wrote: »

Can you then do the sums, based on the number of houses likely to be included in those catchments for the year 2014?

Can you also do this without asking for sources and quotes?

I've no idea what the charge will be in 2014. Do I think it will increase? Yes. do I think it will increase 10 fold? No

What's wrong with looking for sources and quotes? Better than wild speculation, misinformation and scaremongering.

goz83 wrote: »

I would also be very interested to hear where you believe the money would be spent if the taxes pass.

It'll go into the general exchequer receipts (either directly, or into the services that the Governement says it will be going into, displacing Government funding for those service). It will be spent on all of the things we spend our other tax receipts on - public services, closing the borrowing requirement and paying debt.

Slick50 · 04-03-2012 9:54pm

dvpower wrote: »

The €1.6 bn is also mentioned in the MOU, in the Q4-2011 review and it includes the the Property Tax Household charge, VAT, other indirect taxes, CGT and CAT.

The household charge is the keystone to the troika driven reforms of our tax system, to broaden the tax base, they dictated the €1.6 bn for next year and a further €3 bn odd in 2014.

How do you think the government are going to achieve this, when we are already being told that they have "picked the low hanging fruit".

Or do you really believe that this household charge is going to remain at €100? answered while I was typing.

(any link for your €1.6 bn quote above)

dvpower · 04-03-2012 10:20pm

Slick50 wrote: »

The household charge is the keystone to the troika driven reforms of our tax system, to broaden the tax base, they dictated the €1.6 bn for next year and a further €3 bn odd in 2014.

How do you think the government are going to achieve this, when we are already being told that they have "picked the low hanging fruit".

Or do you really believe that this household charge is going to remain at €100? answered while I was typing.

(any link for your €1.6 bn quote above)

You were going to provide a link to where, in the MOU there is a reference to the government intention to increase the property tax to 1.6bn by 2014.
Did you manage to find it?

What I can see on the household charge/property tax is:

Actions for the 4th Review-Q4-2011 wrote:

Revenue measures to yield €1,500min a full year will be adopted, including:
- A lowering of personal income tax bands and credits.
- A reduction in private pension tax reliefs.
- A reduction in general tax expenditures.
- A property tax.
- A reform of capital gains tax and acquisitions tax.
- An increase in the carbon tax.

and

Actions for the 8th Review-Q4-2012 wrote:

Revenue measures to raise at least €1,100min the full year will be introduced, including:
- A lowering of personal income tax bands and credits.
- A reduction in private pension tax relief.
- A reduction in general tax expenditures.
- An increase in property tax.

goz83 · 04-03-2012 10:38pm

dvpower wrote: »

I don't see the relevance Mr. McCarthy.;)

To see if you are an independent thinker, or a party peddler.

dvpower wrote: »

It won't remain at €100 - that much is somewhere in the MOU. I have no idea how much it will increase by. I suspect that the increase next year will be very small, until the property tax that is due to supersede it is in full operation. I wouldn't be surprised, if over the next 5 years, it was increased 4 fold, but thats just speculation on my part.

Yes, it is just speculation, but well placed speculation.

dvpower wrote: »

I've no idea at all. This thread is about the household charge.

I see them as being connected. Local services include water do they not? It is just a way of trying to soften the blow and separate the force of opposition. It is difficult to fight 3 separate taxes (water/house/septic) instead of just one household tax to cover all 3.

dvpower wrote: »

I've no idea what the charge will be in 2014. Do I think it will increase? Yes. do I think it will increase 10 fold? No

True. That i itself is part of the problem. The government not communicating and when they do, it is filled with so much BS. I voted FG, based on their promises. I didn't expect all to be kept, but for almost every one to be broken and then some is just a disgrace.

dvpower wrote: »

What's wrong with looking for sources and quotes? Better than wild speculation, misinformation and scaremongering.

Every other response you ask for the source or line where the MOU report says such a thing, but you have already read it. Would be better to just say "the MOU says no such thing", if that is your interpretation/belief.

dvpower wrote: »

It'll go into the general exchequer receipts (either directly, or into the services that the Governement says it will be going into, displacing Government funding for those service). It will be spent on all of the things we spend our other tax receipts on - public services, closing the borrowing requirement and paying debt.

So the government should maybe tell us this? The truth hurts, but lies and deception when discovered is far harder to forgive. I am right wing, but I find myself being drawn toward the left and it makes me feel sick. At this rate...Sinn Fein will be in government next term. My head is spinning. I have to lie down.

dxhound2005 · 04-03-2012 10:44pm

Anyone interested can let the Government know their ideas about the property tax. One thing which has been decided already is that the NPPR will be abolished so anyone with more than one house will not have to pay any extra over and above the property tax on each of their properties.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentAdministration/LocalGovernmentFinance/Inter-DepartmentalGrouponPropertyTax/

Slick50 · 04-03-2012 11:12pm

dvpower wrote: »

You were going to provide a link to where, in the MOU there is a reference to the government intention to increase the property tax to 1.6bn by 2014.
Did you manage to find it?

What I can see on the household charge/property tax is:

and

No I did not say the troika were specifying the actual tax, they are dictating what extra tax has to be raised, that is 1.6 bn in 2013. The property tax is what they are using to "broaden" the tax base.

Latest memorandum reveals more austerity ahead in Budget 2013

14/02/12

THE LATEST MEMORANDUM of Understanding (MoU) between the Troika and the government has confirmed that “at least €3.5 billion” will be taken out of the economy in the next budget through tax increases and reductions in spending on social welfare and capital projects.
The document,

You didn't mention the ninth review.

"7. Actions for the ninth review (actions to be completed by end Q4-2012)"
specifically states an increase in property tax.

dvpower · 04-03-2012 11:36pm

dvpower wrote: »

I was asking about the specific claim that the government intends to increase this tax to bring in 1.6bn by 2014.

Can you point to evidence of that specific intention either on this thread or elsewhere?

Slick50 wrote: »

It's in the MOU.

Slick50 wrote: »

No I did not say the troika were specifying the actual tax, they are dictating what extra tax has to be raised, that is 1.6 bn in 2013.

OK. Perhaps English isn't your first language.

Slick50 · 04-03-2012 11:50pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Anyone interested can let the Government know their ideas about the property tax. One thing which has been decided already is that the NPPR will be abolished so anyone with more than one house will not have to pay any extra over and above the property tax on each of their properties.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentAdministration/LocalGovernmentFinance/Inter-DepartmentalGrouponPropertyTax/

"The Group is also to consider the appropriate arrangements for:
• a robust audit function; and
• strong enforcement and penalty provisions for non-compliance."

They'd never consider a "lein" I'm sure.

dvpower wrote:

OK. Perhaps English isn't your first language.

You were having your own problems with it not too long ago! A short memory too?

I see you chose to ignore this too...

Slick50 wrote:

You didn't mention the ninth review.

"7. Actions for the ninth review (actions to be completed by end Q4-2012)"
specifically states an increase in property tax.

TheZohanS · 04-03-2012 11:58pm

I've been thinking about this tax a lot lately and

nope, still not paying it.

tayto lover · 05-03-2012 12:05am

Geuze wrote: »

"Are you going to pay the Household Charge?"

This suggests you have a choice, but you don't.

Taxes are not optional.

You can't choose to not pay VAT.

You can't choose to not pay income tax.

I can choose not to pay somebody else's though.
Not paying someone else's gambling debts.

dvpower · 05-03-2012 12:16am

Slick50 wrote: »

You were having your own problems with it not too long ago! A short memory too?

I'm not sure what you're referring to - maybe because of my short term memory problems.

Slick50 wrote: »

I see you chose to ignore this too...

Have a read up the page - I posted the details of the Q4 Review, and I've acknowledged the fact that the tax is going to rise, as specified in the Q4 Review, a couple of times in the last few pages.
My copy of the MOU has the Q4-2012 review as the Eight, not the Ninth review, so this might have thrown you.

Perhaps before you respond to a post, you might read the contents over a couple of times and we might avoid this kind of basic misunderstanding.

Slick50 · 05-03-2012 12:52am

dvpower wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're referring to - maybe because of my short term memory problems.

Let me refresh your memory for you...

Slick50 wrote:

dvpower wrote:

The property tax is in the MOU. This was in place before the election so it isn't something that was cobbled together.

I think you are deliberately miss-understanding me. I said the coalition is something that is cobbled together, not the MOU.

dvpower wrote: »

Perhaps before you respond to a post, you might read the contents over a couple of times and we might avoid this kind of basic misunderstanding.

I'll do that. And if you take your own advice, you can avoid the same basic mistake.(pot meet kettle, ring any bells))

Bullseye1 · 05-03-2012 1:03am

Interesting comments from Leo V. on The Week in Politics when asked to comment on only 10% having paid the €100 Tax. "It doesn't have to be paid by end of month...as long as its paid by end of tax year we will actually make more money on late fees".

bgrizzley · 05-03-2012 1:11am

Just back from the pub.
There was some guy down there crying he had lost E500 on the rugby today. Wanted us to have a whip-round to make up his loss. 39.49% of us told him to fcuk off...........

goz83 · 05-03-2012 2:02am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Interesting comments from Leo V. on The Week in Politics when asked to comment on only 10% having paid the €100 Tax. "It doesn't have to be paid by end of month...as long as its paid by end of tax year we will actually make more money on late fees".

That eijet is going to get himself into a lot of trouble. See how smug he was about it? I bet he will back track on that, just like he back tracked on "not a single RED cent". Wonderful how we can record these things and they still don't admit their mistakes.

Cantona's Collars · 05-03-2012 11:35am

Got my leaflet today.....Yipee! It's now in the bin.The postman didn't deliver it,they are paying a leaflet distribution company to have them delivered,will some of the €100 tax cover that?

Anyhow,they can send me a million leaflets,I'm still not paying.

D_murph · 05-03-2012 12:21pm

zerks wrote: »

Got my leaflet today.....Yipee! It's now in the bin.The postman didn't deliver it,they are paying a leaflet distribution company to have them delivered,will some of the €100 tax cover that?

Anyhow,they can send me a million leaflets,I'm still not paying.

I sent mine back to Phil Hogan when it came. Get it out of the bin (if its not too late) and do the same.

The address is Minister Phil Hogan, Grovine, Co. Kilkenny

. Just make sure to deface it enough so that it cant be used again

.

Teyla Emmagan · 05-03-2012 12:29pm

I've paid. Before they start applying all the late fees and you end up having to pay those as well as the frickin 100 euro.

dvpower · 05-03-2012 12:51pm

D_murph wrote: »

I sent mine back to Phil Hogan when it came. Get it out of the bin (if its not too late) and do the same.

The address is Minister Phil Hogan, Grovine, Co. Kilkenny . Just make sure to deface it enough so that it cant be used again .

So you're advocating sending defaced documents to Phil Hogan's private home address?

Why is that you want to target his home address rather than his Department address or constituency office? Intimidation?

Deus Ex Machina · 05-03-2012 12:55pm

So little money, so many posts. This thread depresses me. There are so many joyless people in this country. Was it always this way?

Cantona's Collars · 05-03-2012 1:02pm

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I've paid. Before they start applying all the late fees and you end up having to pay those as well as the frickin 100 euro.

You must scare easily,you're the type of person this shower in government love.Wait 'til next year when they want 3 or 4 times the amount you just payed.

Crann na Beatha · 05-03-2012 1:04pm

This post has been deleted.

Teyla Emmagan · 05-03-2012 1:18pm

zerks wrote: »

You must scare easily,you're the type of person this shower in government love.Wait 'til next year when they want 3 or 4 times the amount you just payed.

And they will. And you'll still have to pay it then too. This isn't going away, all the hot air in the world won't stop this from becoming a reality.

Ghandee · 05-03-2012 1:26pm

dvpower wrote: »

So you're advocating sending defaced documents to Phil Hogan's private home address?

Why is that you want to target his home address rather than his Department address or constituency office? Intimidation?

Well, in fairness, he's sending them to our home addresses isnt he?

Good for the goose and all that lark.

mikom · 05-03-2012 1:30pm

dvpower wrote: »

Why is that you want to target his home address rather than his Department address or constituency office? Intimidation?

Nah, exaggeration.

Cantona's Collars · 05-03-2012 1:30pm

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

And they will. And you'll still have to pay it then too. This isn't going away, all the hot air in the world won't stop this from becoming a reality.

But the huge majority that won't pay it will stop it from becoming a reality.I'd say many wouldn't mind paying it if it was capped at €100 and the money was actually going to be reinvested in the community instead of being siphoned off to pay bondholders and pensions.

Don't let the leaflets and promises from the government fool you,not one cent of this will be used to improve our lives & communities.

05-03-2012 2:20pm

Aquila wrote: »

I wonder will this eventually morph into an Irish version of council tax?

As far as I understand it, that is the plan!

Tourism · 05-03-2012 2:22pm

Yes, this is going to be paid.

goz83 · 05-03-2012 2:27pm

dvpower wrote: »

So you're advocating sending defaced documents to Phil Hogan's private home address?

Why is that you want to target his home address rather than his Department address or constituency office? Intimidation?

Well. The leaflets are coming to our homes, so they should be sent to his. Returning junk to the source.

monkeypants · 05-03-2012 2:28pm

Household charge? I've received no bill for it, first I've heard of it, how can I be penalised for not paying it?

Ogham · 05-03-2012 2:36pm

Aquila wrote: »

I wonder will this eventually morph into an Irish version of council tax?

Definitely - it is being planned at the moment and will be in place by 2014 at the latest. The annual property tax is expected to be at least €560 for a house worth €150k - €300k - and it could be as much as €1125 for house worth 300k to 450k.

More details http://www.moneyguideireland.com/property-tax-how-much-will-it-be.html

Teyla Emmagan · 05-03-2012 2:39pm

zerks wrote: »

But the huge majority that won't pay it will stop it from becoming a reality.I'd say many wouldn't mind paying it if it was capped at €100 and the money was actually going to be reinvested in the community instead of being siphoned off to pay bondholders and pensions.

Don't let the leaflets and promises from the government fool you,not one cent of this will be used to improve our lives & communities.

Sure I know all of that. It's a tax, plain and simple. They won't be funneling one cent of it back into local services. It will be going towards the shortfall to keep the country running on a daily basis/pay off our massive debts.

And I really doubt that a 'huge majority' won't pay it. All the TDs etc who were making noise have gone very quiet about this lately, do you not think they are slowly giving up any pretence of protest?

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Comments