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Match thread: Ulster v Munster, Ravenhill 09/05/15 14:40

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    #392
    Wang King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Wang King


    .ak wrote: »
    Unfortunately it is a black mark on irish rugby and as soon as it was ignored it engraved itself into the history books.

    :rolleyes:


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    #393
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Wang King wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Why the roll eyes? Do you not agree?

    I thought we were all pretty unanimously in agreement that it was?

    Unfortunately as such it'll always be the stick used to beat the citing process with.


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    #394
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Anyway, red card aside.

    Henderson for me MOTM, best back row player on show. Thought he comprehensively outplayed his opposite number.

    Jackson is a class act and is miles clear of all the other 10s currently in the country. His passing is just a level above anything the others can serve up, his game management is quality. His only downside is his tactical kicking but that can be improved.

    Munster won the scrum contest and turned over a few lineouts too. Murray played well, thought Keatley was ok but upstaged by Jackson again. Stander Munster's best forward. We have poor depth in the pack, subs cost us. Scrum disintegrated when Herbst went off and got a bit better when Warwick replaced Black.

    Thought we were the only team trying to play rugby and create chances. Munster's tactics were to try and kill the game and turn it into a plodder-fest. It's why I wouldn't want to go to Thomond for a semi as they'd be much more adapt at stopping us playing any rugby down there.

    Shame that Tuohy had a total brainfart with the tryline in sight or that would probably have been a win for us.


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    #395
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    And on the subject of the red card Neil Doak has told the BBC that Ulster will be appealing the red card decision.


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    #396
    Wang King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Wang King


    .ak wrote: »
    Why the roll eyes? Do you not agree?

    I thought we were all pretty unanimously in agreement that it was?

    Unfortunately as such it'll always be the stick used to beat the citing process with.

    Phrases like black mark on Irish rugby and engraving in history are a more than a little ott.
    Hyperbole deserves :rolleyes: imo


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    #397
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    .ak wrote: »
    Why the roll eyes? Do you not agree?

    I thought we were all pretty unanimously in agreement that it was?

    Unfortunately as such it'll always be the stick used to beat the citing process with.

    The agreement definitely wasn't unanimous, somehow


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    #398
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    Wang King wrote: »
    Phrases like black mark on Irish rugby and engraving in history are a more than a little ott.
    Hyperbole deserves :rolleyes: imo

    it is a black mark when you consider one poster on here thinks Henderson should get several months ban for his red card today


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    #399
    Wang King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Wang King


    aimee1 wrote: »
    it is a black mark when you consider one poster on here thinks Henderson should get several months ban for his red card today

    Ah! One poster thinks....that's grand so


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    #400
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Let's avoid going back in time to this again :)


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    #401
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    awec wrote: »
    And on the subject of the red card Neil Doak has told the BBC that Ulster will be appealing the red card decision.

    I'd be delighted if it was overturned, "in the spirit of the law." It was a very technical ruling to give it.

    Henderson is superb, there's no-one else playing like him at the moment, except maybe Stander.

    Bowe has been disappointing for Ireland and made a lot of mistakes. He finished his try really well, but it was Henderson who made it, along with an inexperienced Munster winger. He should have trusted in Stander to make the tackle on Henderson. I was disappointed by Henry. And Peter O'Mahoney. The Munster second rows were great in the line-out, especially with Ulster's line-out being so good all season. Earls made a mistake or two, but also did some amazing work. I think what was most impressive for Munster was how they did with both Zebo and O'Donnell off.

    Henderson has to go to the World Cup. And if Jackson isn't the back up to Sexton, well...


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    #402
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    awec wrote: »
    And on the subject of the red card Neil Doak has told the BBC that Ulster will be appealing the red card decision.

    Poor decision by Doak. The Ulster management need to acknowledge that there is serious issue with discipline within the squad, rather than turning a blind eye and making excuses. You don't want to get a reputation as a dirty side.

    Kiss needs to sort it out when he arrives.


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    #403
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It won't be overturned. The Pro12 committees never have the stones to say a referee and his assistants got a huge call wrong, especially in a game with such big implications.


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    #404
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    awec wrote: »
    It won't be overturned. The Pro12 committees never have the stones to say a referee and his assistants got a huge call wrong, especially in a game with such big implications.

    Or conversely certain fans don't have the stones to say the ref and his assistants got it right. Perspective I guess. If it's overturned I'll post on here that I was wrong, won't mind admitting it.


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    #405
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Or conversely certain fans don't have the stones to say the ref and his assistants got it right. Perspective I guess. If it's overturned I'll post on here that I was wrong, won't mind admitting it.

    We'll see I guess.

    It will be interesting to see how many red cards we see in future for non-bound clearouts.

    Just like all those red cards for tackles in the air and leg lifting clearouts that we have seen.


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    #406
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    The Henderson red card was correct. That other refs have missed similar incidents doesn't change that.

    He'll be banned, I'd be shocked if the Pro12 committee overturned the red.


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    #407
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    awec wrote: »
    We'll see I guess.

    It will be interesting to see how many red cards we see in future for non-bound clearouts.

    Just like all those red cards for tackles in the air and leg lifting clearouts that we have seen.

    There's a huge difference between a non-bound clear out and diving into a ruck and subsequently headbutting and opposition player in the face.


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    #408
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    There's a huge difference between a non-bound clear out and diving into a ruck and subsequently headbutting and opposition player in the face.

    What's the difference? Being unlucky that you make contact with someone?

    All those clear outs carry the exact same risk.

    Henderson was a non-bound clearout. Enough this this "diving in and headbutting" crap.


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    #409
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    What rankles me the most is that nobody else gets dinged for these things. We've already said these clearouts happen multiple times every game. Are we saying that it's ok to do this, but if you're unlucky enough to make contact with someone you'll be red carded?

    Take the McCloskey red too. A few weeks before that I sat in the RDS and saw Shane Jennings do the same thing. The referee went and looked at it and didn't even give a penalty! A few weeks later McCloskey does it and he's sent off. How is that not supposed to fcuk people off?

    How many tackles in the air have we had since Payne? How many red cards?

    If the referees want to start clamping down on dangerous play then they had better start clamping down on it. Sending off one player and then forgetting about it subsequently is a cop out. Inconsistently refereeing incidents is a cop out.


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    #410
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    awec wrote: »
    It will be interesting to see how many red cards we see in future for non-bound clearouts.

    WIthout commenting on the correctness of the call, I thought the red was for leading with the head into another players head?


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    #411
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    awec wrote: »
    We'll see I guess.

    It will be interesting to see how many red cards we see in future for non-bound clearouts.

    Just like all those red cards for tackles in the air and leg lifting clearouts that we have seen.

    Henderson is turning into a fantastic footballer, and it's a pity it fell on him.

    However, I think concussion is possibly the biggest issue facing rugby, and World Rugby will be taking a very tough line on anything that can cause it. He's not the first to be red carded this season by the way for such an offence. I know you don't follow super rugby, but Hika Elliott of the Cheifs got a red card for pretty much the same thing, and a one week ban. I doubt Henderson gets more than 1 or 2 weeks.


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    #412
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »
    WIthout commenting on the correctness of the call, I thought the red was for leading with the head into another players head?

    Correct.


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    #413
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    What rankles me the most is that nobody else gets dinged for these things. We've already said these clearouts happen multiple times every game. Are we saying that it's ok to do this, but if you're unlucky enough to make contact with someone you'll be red carded?

    Look, he didn't get carded for a non-bound clearout. He got carded because he (inadventantly) headbutted someone.

    You're making it sound like this is random back luck but it quite simply is not. Henderson's technique in this case is what caused the problem.

    I thought the card was harsh but I can understand it.


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    #414
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Look, he didn't get carded for a non-bound clearout. He got carded because he (inadventantly) headbutted someone.

    You're making it sound like this is random back luck but it quite simply is not. Henderson's technique in this case is what caused the problem.

    I thought the card was harsh but I can understand it.

    He headbutted someone accidentally because he didn't bind properly in the clearout. As you said it's his technique that caused the problem.

    The same technique is used LOADS of times in every game by loads of players. The only difference between those and today was that Henderson was unfortunate enough to make head contact during his illegal clearout.

    If referees want to start clamping down on this maybe they should start dinging teams for clearing out like this? As I said, it'll be interesting to see how this is referee'd going forward. If the past is anything to go by I expect it'll be conveniently glossed over and forgotten about, and clearouts like that will continue.


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    #415
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    awec wrote: »
    The only difference between those and today was that Henderson was unfortunate enough to make head contact during his illegal clearout.

    He was reckless and that's what he got the red for.

    One of the Glasgow players did something similar against Ospreys a few months back. The ref missed it but was cited and banned after the game.


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    #416
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    He was reckless and that's what he got the red for.

    One of the Glasgow players did something similar against Ospreys a few months back. The ref missed it but was cited and banned after the game.

    He was reckless but so is any player who attempts such a clearout without binding (which again, happens often).


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    #417
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    He headbutted someone accidentally because he didn't bind properly in the clearout. As you said it's his technique that caused the problem.

    The same technique is used LOADS of times in every game by loads of players. The only difference between those and today was that Henderson was unfortunate enough to make head contact during his illegal clearout.

    If referees want to start clamping down on this maybe they should start dinging teams for clearing out like this?

    Yes you're exactly right. The only difference is that he headbutted somebody, and in nearly all the other instances, nobody gets headbutted. If you don't headbutt anyone you are most likely not going to get sent off. This is perfectly reasonable.

    This line that it's just bad luck does not wash. He's in control of his actions He can see where he's lining himself up, he can control how he enters the ruck.


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    #418
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Yes you're exactly right. The only difference is that he headbutted somebody, and in nearly all the other instances, nobody gets headbutted. If you don't headbutt anyone you are most likely not going to get sent off. This is perfectly reasonable.

    This line that it's just bad luck does not wash. He's in control of his actions He can see where he's lining himself up, he can control how he enters the ruck.

    We'll agree to disagree I guess.


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    #419
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    We'll agree to disagree I guess.

    I just can't see where you're coming from tbh. A similar argument came up in the whole tackle in the air debate, people were trying to say the outcome of the tackle should have no bearing (i.e. doesn't matter if the guy lands safely or breaks his neck) but of course it should have a bearing and that's the way it's reffed. But fair enough.


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    #420
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    I just can't see where you're coming from tbh. A similar argument came up in the whole tackle in the air debate, people were trying to say the outcome of the tackle should have no bearing (i.e. doesn't matter if the guy lands safely or breaks his neck) but of course it should have a bearing and that's the way it's reffed. But fair enough.

    I'm just an angry man right now. :D


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    #421
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    I'm just an angry man right now. :D

    I genuinely didn't care who won or lost today so I guess it's easier to look at it for me, I can imagine I wouldn't be very happy if the red went against Leinster.


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