Danske bank to close retail customer accounts

kennM · 18-07-2014 10:21am

posiedon_regs wrote: »

For those with no side letters:

It would seem that you still have a strong argument based on the legal doctrine of reasonable expectations. Since you purchased an offset mortgage, you may have had a reasonable expectation that the contract would allow you offset benefits over the term UNLESS clearly stated otherwise. This clearly applies in this case since the very function of the mortgage as sold was to provide such benefits and even a solicitor (much less a customer) may not have reasonably expected such benefits to be prematurely withdrawn AT TIME OF PURCHASE.

A further difficulty for the lender is that they seem unable to produce the original mortgage contract as they do not seem to have copies of the ORIGINAL offset account terms and conditions. In any event, as far as I am aware, these were never furnished to either the borrower or their solicitor when the mortgage contract was being signed.

In my experience, making your case clearly and succinctly will help with your responses.

I'm not sure what versions of contracts people have but I've spotted this in my original mortgage paperwork T&Cs in section 6:

"6. Current Account

6.1 you are not obliged to maintain your general current account with us but, if you do not, you must maintain a separate current account with us to service the Loan on our usual terms or such other terms as may be agreed. This account must be opened before the Loan is drawn and maintained throughout the Period of the Agreement. Where your general current account is operated through any other bank or building society you must, prior to drawdown of the Loan, provide a standing order or direct debiting authority to us in such form as we may require."

That looks pretty clear cut to me....

Thoie · 18-07-2014 10:32am

yop wrote: »

Actually one other thing, the TRS, is everyone getting paid theirs?

Thoie wrote: »

Good question, must go check that.

Checked last night, and nope, not paid. Rang Pepper this morning, and was pleasantly surprised by how easy the whole thing was. She apologised for the fact that it hadn't been transferred, took the details of the account it was to be paid into, and set that up. I'll get the back payments for the last few months within the next 5 days, and after that it will just go through automatically each month.

robbe · 18-07-2014 4:22pm

kennM wrote: »

I'm not sure what versions of contracts people have but I've spotted this in my original mortgage paperwork T&Cs in section 6:
"6. Current Account

6.1 you are not obliged to maintain your general current account with us but, if you do not, you must maintain a separate current account with us to service the Loan on our usual terms or such other terms as may be agreed. This account must be opened before the Loan is drawn and maintained throughout the Period of the Agreement. Where your general current account is operated through any other bank or building society you must, prior to drawdown of the Loan, provide a standing order or direct debiting authority to us in such form as we may require."

That looks pretty clear cut to me....

Thanks - saw that too, I expect people have largely the same facility agreements - mine is a generic one which mentions fixed interest mortgages etc which have no relevance. Actually if you read the facility letter you dont see any mention of offset arrangments at all which makes the 6 years of offsetting benefits that they gave me without any reference to the terms of the facility quite generous........

Twas Not · 18-07-2014 4:26pm

Anyone have any dealings yet with this Pepper crowd?

makeorbrake · 18-07-2014 5:10pm

Twas Not wrote: »

Anyone have any dealings yet with this Pepper crowd?

I've been trying to get a copy of a Homebond cert off them. They insisted that I put my request in writing. That was the end of last month. As of today, no contact. They insist they won't communicate via email. I sent a follow up letter yesterday (by registered post in each case).

robbe · 22-07-2014 8:41am

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone has gotten past or close to the end of the investigation phase yet? Given the potential for this to turn into a prolonged bout of claim and counter claim facilitated by the FSO I wondered if anyone had completed the response phase and progressed onto the determination part?

Thx

yop · 22-07-2014 8:45am

robbe wrote: »

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone has gotten past or close to the end of the investigation phase yet? Given the potential for this to turn into a prolonged bout of claim and counter claim facilitated by the FSO I wondered if anyone had completed the response phase and progressed onto the determination part?

Thx

I can't see answer from them for another 3 or 4 weeks. Its the FSO who will rule on it now. Then it will be either us or the bank who will appeal I am sure.

kennM · 22-07-2014 9:49am

robbe wrote: »

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone has gotten past or close to the end of the investigation phase yet? Given the potential for this to turn into a prolonged bout of claim and counter claim facilitated by the FSO I wondered if anyone had completed the response phase and progressed onto the determination part?

Thx

Only at the "FSO offer to mediate" stage myself. Danske are due to say no/ignore that request this week and then onto the next stage myself. We're prepared to allow FSO to mediate but judging by responses on this thread I have zero expectation that they'll take up that offer.

dolallyoh · 22-07-2014 1:41pm

I am waiting for my investigation to commence. Meanwhile paying interest on my mortgage like a barsteward.

Bumby · 24-07-2014 5:34pm

Our side letter is dated 25th February 2005 and the Section in "Offset Mortgage Home Loans - Terms & Conditions" relating to current accounts is Section 5 and not Section 6 as some previous contributors have referred to.

It states:-
"(5) Current Account - Where your general current account is not maintained with us (you are not obliged to do so) you must maintain a separate current account with us (to service the Loan) on our usual terms or such other terms as may be agreed. This account must be opened before the Loan is drawn and maintained throughout the Period of Agreement. Where your general current account is operated through any other Bank or Building Society you must, prior to drawdown of the Loan provide a standing order or direct debiting authority to us in such form as we may require. We may debit all payments under this Agreement to your current account with us or any of your accounts as they fall due. Where repayments debited to your current account are not provided for, we may debit them to your Loan account."

We maintained 2 operating current accounts both of which were Offset against our mortgage (before being forcibly closed by Danske) and while we believe that "Right" is on our side the potential cost of bringing our case further in the event of FSO sitting on the fence may prove too prohibitive and we've no doubt Danske are aware of this and that this is the card that they will play.

We've still had no indication from FSO as to where our case is at in spite of the "Decision" timescale originally outlined by them having now been exceeded but we're not holding our breath!

mel.b · 31-07-2014 11:13pm

romadidas wrote: »

As others here have speculated, Danske Bank has made some arrangements for those who don't clear their credit card balance in full by the "Termination Date" (in my case March 7). The letter I received today says "If you have not repaid your outstanding balance by the Termination Date, we will assume that you are unable to repay the balance in full. In these circumstances
- Your Credit Card Agreement will not be terminated on the Termination Date, but will be amended so that you switch to an automatic repayment option under your existing Credit Card Agreement (terms set out below).
- But, as above, your Credit Card Account functionality, your Credit Card and any related benefits will be permanently removed and you will continue to owe us the outstanding balance
The move to a repayment option will be automatic and you will not be required to contact us to accept the terms set out below"

They then give details of the "repayment option" - not a personal loan or credit facility but an option under your existing credit card facility, 24 monthly repayments, interest rate 11.5%, you may pay off more if you wish etc.

They also enclose a similar note for those with an overdraft arrangement - similar deal, except interest rate during the 24 month repayment period is 9.75%.

Question - does that "repayment option" then become a blot on your credit record, for example in the Irish Credit Bureau?

Just following this up for others who may have been wondering. I ordered a copy of my credit report and the 'repayment option' is not on the credit report. It still just lists the credit card and that the payments are up to date and it has the correct balance outstanding also.

dolallyoh · 12-08-2014 2:35pm

Anyone had an result yet ?

Jimpopo · 12-08-2014 2:37pm

dolallyoh wrote: »

Anyone had an result yet ?

No

yop · 12-08-2014 2:38pm

dolallyoh wrote: »

Anyone had an result yet ?

Not a word. Not even a communication back

dolallyoh · 12-08-2014 2:40pm

yop wrote: »

Not a word. Not even a communication back

Yeah, ditto.

robbe · 12-08-2014 2:58pm

dolallyoh wrote: »

Anyone had an result yet ?

Nothing here but I am at the stage prior to the final outcome (but post the first response from Danske to the complaint). I expect that the holiday period will slow everything up - I had 10 days (working) to respond to Danske's submission in relation to the complaint and I assume they have 10 days to respond to my additional information....could go on a while!

posiedon_regs · 18-08-2014 9:29am

Thanks to customer feedback (presumably they mean legal action) and engagement of the Central Bank, the Bank has directly written out to offset customers offering 2 options:
1) Open a new offset account with limited functionality and return to April's interest rate (i.e. present rate + 1%). Only one withdrawal is allowed every 30 days;
or
2) Continue with the status quo (i.e. present rate and no offset).
Customers are given 30 days from the date of offer to reply otherwise option 2) is considered the default!

My thoughts are:
- The Bank offer does NOT offer compensation for the loss of offset over the last 3 months;
- The Bank offers no compensation for all of the work required in forcing them to act within the Law;
- The new offset account offers limited liquidity in comparison to the original contract with only one withdrawal permitted per month;
- Even though the FSO adjudication is ongoing, the Bank has decided to circumvent the FSO and impose an arbitrary, effectively three week window in which to decide to take up their offer despite their refusal to offset accounts in their FINAL response letter to FSO complainants.

On the positive side, it means that the Bank realise that they have no case. If a complainant to the FSO now does nothing, it may be the case that this offer will have no bearing on the adjudication which is likely to be at least as favorable as the Bank's latest offer. The Bank's latest offer seems to be to following the classic strategy of splitting your opposition.

It would be interesting to know who received this offer. Is it just the first tranche of FSO complainants (Robbe et al), all FSO complainants or all offset mortgage holders?

yop · 18-08-2014 9:39am

posiedon_regs wrote: »

Thanks to customer feedback (presumably they mean legal action) and engagement of the Central Bank, the Bank has directly written out to offset customers offering 2 options:
1) Open a new offset account with limited functionality and return to April's interest rate (i.e. present rate + 1%). Only one withdrawal is allowed every 30 days;
or
2) Continue with the status quo (i.e. present rate and no offset).
Customers are given 30 days from the date of offer to reply otherwise option 2) is considered the default!

My thoughts are:
- The Bank offer does NOT offer compensation for the loss of offset over the last 3 months;
- The Bank offers no compensation for all of the work required in forcing them to act within the Law;
- The new offset account offers limited liquidity in comparison to the original contract with only one withdrawal permitted per month;
- Even though the FSO adjudication is ongoing, the Bank has decided to circumvent the FSO and impose an arbitrary, effectively three week window in which to decide to take up their offer despite their refusal to offset accounts in their FINAL response letter to FSO complainants.

On the positive side, it means that the Bank realise that they have no case. If a complainant to the FSO now does nothing, it may be the case that this offer will have no bearing on the adjudication which is likely to be at least as favorable as the Bank's latest offer. The Bank's latest offer seems to be to following the classic strategy of splitting your opposition.

It would be interesting to know who received this offer. Is it just the first tranche of FSO complainants (Robbe et al), all FSO complainants or all offset mortgage holders?

Where did this come from? Did you get a letter from FSO or Danske?
Presume you were an offset holder and engaged with FSO?

nicky5mx · 18-08-2014 9:56am

Interesting letter..........Bank obviously now realise that they are unlikely to win with the FSO and are doing a damage limitation exercise.

Did you receive this letter this morning ? I have not received any letter up to last Friday. I am still awaiting the adjudication from the FSO having sent my reply about 3 weeks ago to the DB response to my complaint. I wonder if this offer is only going to the people who have the side letter or to all offset customers ?

If we are all getting this offer the question is do we accept or hope for a better outcome with the FSO. I hope the FSO will get the finger out and start informing us of their decision. I think it is time this matter was finally put to bed. It has to be said though that if this DB offer is correct then it is a positive outcome for us all.

clint_silver · 18-08-2014 10:08am

posiedon_regs wrote: »

Thanks to customer feedback (presumably they mean legal action) and engagement of the Central Bank, the Bank has directly written out to offset customers offering 2 options:
1) Open a new offset account with limited functionality and return to April's interest rate (i.e. present rate + 1%). Only one withdrawal is allowed every 30 days;
or
2) Continue with the status quo (i.e. present rate and no offset).
Customers are given 30 days from the date of offer to reply otherwise option 2) is considered the default!

My thoughts are:
- The Bank offer does NOT offer compensation for the loss of offset over the last 3 months;
- The Bank offers no compensation for all of the work required in forcing them to act within the Law;
- The new offset account offers limited liquidity in comparison to the original contract with only one withdrawal permitted per month;
- Even though the FSO adjudication is ongoing, the Bank has decided to circumvent the FSO and impose an arbitrary, effectively three week window in which to decide to take up their offer despite their refusal to offset accounts in their FINAL response letter to FSO complainants.

On the positive side, it means that the Bank realise that they have no case. If a complainant to the FSO now does nothing, it may be the case that this offer will have no bearing on the adjudication which is likely to be at least as favorable as the Bank's latest offer. The Bank's latest offer seems to be to following the classic strategy of splitting your opposition.

It would be interesting to know who received this offer. Is it just the first tranche of FSO complainants (Robbe et al), all FSO complainants or all offset mortgage holders?

havent received it but I didnt have an FSO complaint. Interesting take on a split theory, Ive said from the start this will come down to what peoples bank balances are, if its small, which Id suspect most peoples are, then the 1% reduction is far more attractive.

nicky5mx · 18-08-2014 10:13am

As much as I hate DB it would seem a fair offer to me. The 1% reduction in the rate is a much better benefit to some people who do not have much in terms of savings. Personally I want my offset arrangement back. The one withdrawal per month is not ideal but I think we could live with it.

posiedon_regs · 18-08-2014 10:33am

nicky5mx wrote: »

Interesting letter..........Bank obviously now realise that they are unlikely to win with the FSO and are doing a damage limitation exercise.

Did you receive this letter this morning ? I have not received any letter up to last Friday. I am still awaiting the adjudication from the FSO having sent my reply about 3 weeks ago to the DB response to my complaint. I wonder if this offer is only going to the people who have the side letter or to all offset customers ?

If we are all getting this offer the question is do we accept or hope for a better outcome with the FSO. I hope the FSO will get the finger out and start informing us of their decision. I think it is time this matter was finally put to bed. It has to be said though that if this DB offer is correct then it is a positive outcome for us all.

This "offer" was received this morning by the holder of a side letter who is in the first tranche of FSO complainants. Initial thoughts are that the Bank seems to have no respect whatsoever for the FSO and for its customers. In this instance, the customers appear to have been illegally denied offset benefits and forced to engage in a lengthy battle to assert their legal rights. Under pressure from the Central Bank, the Bank may be:

- imposing a new deadline on the wronged customers;
- not compensating them for all of their interest and time costs to date;
- ignoring the FSO adjudication procedure;
- preparing to ride away into the sunset without paying any penalty for its actions, aided by their customers.

Is the splitting strategy working already?

ABC101 · 18-08-2014 10:51am

A most interesting development. Well done to the community here.

It would appear that 1% of 4% is in effect 25% reduction in the rate.

Which would mean... you would want to have more than 25% of the principle amount in the "new limited offset current account" to better the 3.15% on offer..

So for example... if your mortgage is 300K, you would want to have at least 75K in the current account as savings, just sitting there offsetting the mortgage.

This may suit people given their particular circumstances.

I always thought it a bit fishy that Danske gave a 1% reduction on the rate when they closed the offset.

I mean.... if they were legally within their rights to close the offset arrangement at any time they should chose.... then why offer the 1% reduction? Why offer something they don't have to offer at all?

They must have thought Paddy is dumb, and they could pull a fast one over the Irish.

On the other hand.... I wonder are the CEo's /managers in the Danish Head office wondering if pulling out of Ireland was the smart thing to do? They locked in their losses at the low point.

Ireland (whilst having numerous problems) is now one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, everything is heading in the right direction.... including employment (thankfully). Population is up, demand for housing is up etc etc etc

yop · 18-08-2014 11:02am

posiedon_regs wrote: »

This "offer" was received this morning by the holder of a side letter who is in the first tranche of FSO complainants. Initial thoughts are that the Bank seems to have no respect whatsoever for the FSO and for its customers. In this instance, the customers appear to have been illegally denied offset benefits and forced to engage in a lengthy battle to assert their legal rights. Under pressure from the Central Bank, the Bank may be:

- imposing a new deadline on the wronged customers;
- not compensating them for all of their interest and time costs to date;
- ignoring the FSO adjudication procedure;
- preparing to ride away into the sunset without paying any penalty for its actions, aided by their customers.

Is the splitting strategy working already?

They now realize that they are not dealing with a bunch of muppets, that people are well clued into their rights and have plenty of ability to stand their ground, figure out their losses and follow them and show them up for that they are really doing.
I am surprised they have taken this approach but it must be a sign that they have a heads up from the FSO that they are going to be hit hard.

While the offer of a reinstatement of the offset is progress, the 1 withdrawl a month is very limited and also the fact that they still have now over 700 euro in extra interest payments of my money, the time we invested and stress and hassle we all went through, then they still in our case have a lot to do.
We will be 50 or 60k out of pocket, I ain't going to give this up easy.

Keep the pressure on guys, we will show them up.

makeorbrake · 18-08-2014 11:20am

yop wrote: »

They now realize that they are not dealing with a bunch of muppets, that people are well clued into their rights and have plenty of ability to stand their ground, figure out their losses and follow them and show them up for that they are really doing.

It's still a clever move - to set their preference as the 'default'. All of you guys may have been well clued in - but you can be sure that there are many others that are not OR they have not been (...or would not be..) prepared to invest the time in going the route you have all taken.

yop wrote: »

I am surprised they have taken this approach

They have form in this area in the past - so don't be surprised. They obviously feel they have nothing to lose in Ireland and don't really care of how this type of thing plays.

yop wrote: »

While the offer of a reinstatement of the offset is progress, the 1 withdrawl a month is very limited and also the fact that they still have now over 700 euro in extra interest payments of my money, the time we invested and stress and hassle we all went through, then they still in our case have a lot to do.
We will be 50 or 60k out of pocket, I ain't going to give this up easy.

Keep the pressure on guys, we will show them up.

You're quite right - you shouldn't give up - this is a clear indication that you are going to get a favourable result.

yop wrote: »

..but it must be a sign that they have a heads up from the FSO that they are going to be hit hard.

Given the way things work in IRL, I think that's very likely to be the case. Additionally, I'd imagine they might feel that they have enough added workload unnecessarily - given all of these complaints are dealt with separately. It's nonsensical in any event that - when they get a number of such complaints in - that they don't simply make a blanket ruling - rather than force people to go to the trouble. But of course, you can be sure that's by design. Inertia will account for many people falling by the wayside.

robbe · 18-08-2014 11:43am

Certainly a positive development and not one that I expect was easily earned.....it does suggest that they believe, at least for some of the former offset account holders perhaps the side letter holders, that they are likely to be unsuccessful at defending the FSO complaint.

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out over the coming weeks, I expect everyone's circumstances are different (differing mortgage amounts/ratio of savings balance to mortgage etc) - well done to all who didn't just take this lying down!

yop · 18-08-2014 12:08pm

Should this letter be forwarded ASAP to the FSO. Those who get a letter, I suspect only those with side letters will get this, and since they have a time limit on this "offer", then the FSO should be made aware of this.

dolallyoh · 18-08-2014 12:41pm

Apparently my letter from Danske has arrived at home

Edit : Am a side letter "we won't close the account" holder.

Fair play to the FSO.

Will update later.

stiofanD · 18-08-2014 12:49pm

I received this letter this morning and I had made no complaint at all, so I expect all offset mortgage holders will receive the same offer

dolallyoh · 18-08-2014 12:51pm

stiofanD wrote: »

I received this letter this morning and I had made no complaint at all, so I expect all offset mortgage holders will receive the same offer

Do you know did you have the side letter as part of your contract ?

Danske bank to close retail customer accounts

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