Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

robindch wrote: »

Have another read of my post - especially the bit where I describe their representation in the Rada. Stepan (not Stephan) Bandera spent three years in a variety of Nazi concentration camps and was not a Nazi himself - he was a Ukrainian nationalist who tried to co-operate with the Nazi's to oust the Soviets from Ukraine.I said that Svoboda's policies are more in line with UKIP than they are with Hitler and while you may disagree, having read some of their policies and spoken with some members of Svoboda (have you?), I stand by that assessment.

FWIW, I agree with you that they're bonkers, but I also think that UKIP are bonkers and the elected members of Sinn Fein, north and south, have probably committed more crimes than the elected members of Svoboda. But regardless of that, while Svoboda is far-right, it is not Nazi in any real sense and that unhelpful, untrue and unquenchable reach-for-the-godwin is what I'd like to see an end to.

So the argument here that you're representing is that the Ukrainian far right, radical party, Svoboda have no Nazi affiliations and that we should believe that they are approaching the milder side of ultra nationalism, an oxymoron if ever I heard one?

This used to be their flag/logo



It was changed only because ultra nationalism cannot, generally, get ahead in modern politics. You mentioned Sinn Fein there - do you believe them when they say they've changed? Or do you think they, like Svoboda are playing the political game?

Quite how you can make a representation for these people and play down their affiliations and yet remain somehow entrenched in your unfaltering stance against the Russians is a remarkable piece of compartmentalization.
Anything related to the old communists and Putin is unquestionable propaganda yet official doctrine emanating from a far right nationalist group, and a couple of personally conducted roadside interviews, is enough for you to essentially equivocate them as party.

Do you feel that if one was to accept that Svoboda had, ultimately, Nazi leaning ideologies that it would be too difficult to gloss over the fact that the US, met them, shared a platform with them and essentially egged them on during the revolution? Would it make things a little too uncomfortable for those sticking to the western playbook of the events that have happened this year in Ukraine?

recedite wrote: »

I'm not making that claim, the Russian military made it originally, and now this separatist leader has said it too.

And you are repeating this claim, so it's up to you to defend or abandon it.

If you are correct that the non-existent warplane was a Su-25, then yes around 16,000 feet is the service ceiling when fully loaded with fuel and weaponry.

A ground attack aircraft with no external stores isn't much use. Anyway, aerodynamically clean it's still limited to under 23,000 ft

But "service ceiling" is only the max. height at which the plane still operates at full efficiency. The actual height limit of the plane would be its "absolute ceiling" which is much higher, and which also depends on the weight it is carrying at the time.

Taking an aircraft to its absolute ceiling (where it can barely sustain level flight) is crazy, never mind doing this in a military aircraft in disputed airspace. There is no benefit to do so either, it makes one a sitting duck, on the contrary a ground attack mission will fly as low as possible to avoid radar.

Strange that the Ukrainian govt. still have not agreed to release transcripts or recordings from air traffic control conversations with MH17, which would shed more light on what was going on at the time.

They will be released but in accordance with the usual ICAO investigation procedure. The interim report stating the available facts usually takes six months. The full report stating the probable cause usually takes at least two years.

putin is the winner and clearly outset himself to be knowing the western weakness .....