Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

BlaasForRafa · 11-07-2014 4:27pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Oh sure that's grand. Unfortunately though, the settlements are a major part of the issue here and you can't just neatly sideline that with a glib comment. You espouse the narrative that Israel is "defending itself" but seem to ignore completely the significance of the settlement project. The Palestinians are literally having their country stolen away from the piece by piece in front of their very eyes. Do you have any idea how Palestinians feel about that like? To be herded into squalid refugee camp while a load of foreigners live happily on land that was once yours a few short years ago?

Considering Israel is aggressively pursuing a policy of apartheid in East Jerusalem as well as stealing and annexing whatever it wants in the West Bank; then all comments about self-defence become null and void. The fact you might happen to disagree with the settlements on a superficial level doesn't change that.

I'm sure it would be nice for you if everyone had black or white opinions, if everyone was easily painted into a corner it would be nice and easy but life isn't like that. It is possible to have complex opinions and go beyond that "Israel is always right" or "Israel is always wrong" stuff.

Israel made a dreadful choice post 1967, Eshkol knew it was a mistake but ailing as he was he left the hawks take the initiative and governments since then have continually compounded that mistake year after year. The Jordanians didn't cover themselves in glory either by abandoning the West Back and not claiming it back through negotiation.

My disapproval of the settlements is fundamental not superficial but if you choose not to believe that, that's up to you. Disapproving of the settlements and settlers and acknowledging Israel's right to defend itself from attacks out of Gaza are not incompatible no matter how much you'd like them to be.

Nodin · 11-07-2014 4:34pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm sure it would be nice for you if everyone had black or white opinions, if everyone was easily painted into a corner it would be nice and easy but life isn't like that. It is possible to have complex opinions and go beyond that "Israel is always right" or "Israel is always wrong" stuff.

Israel made a dreadful choice post 1967, Eshkol knew it was a mistake but ailing as he was he left the hawks take the initiative and governments since then have continually compounded that mistake year after year. The Jordanians didn't cover themselves in glory either by abandoning the West Back and not claiming it back through negotiation.

.

They ceded negotiating rights to the PLO/Fatah. Having become almost a minority in their own state overnight, the prospect of becoming an outright one would have been a factor in their decision.

WakeUp · 11-07-2014 6:42pm

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist organisation with the same ideology as the Taliban and Isis.
They seek to conquer and destroy Israel and to murder all the Jews in Israel

For all Hamas faults I don't think the above is true . These rockets being fired into Israel ( which I've stated I'm not down with ) their better rockets let's say are being fired in very small salvos - Hamas from their point of view need to respond and be seen to be doing something. Though I think deep down they don't actually want to level a high density population area - and the devastating Israeli response that would bring - and are happy enough for the iron dome system to be intercepting them which is why they only fire a few at a time. If like you say their goal was to kill all Jews or whatever they would be attempting to defeat Israeli air defence. to do that you need to overload it . and that obviously means a sustained and corordinated barrage in one direction so far this hasn't happened which would indicate something to me. Iron dome specs and performance specs are classified it appears capable of standing up to sporadic and small numbered salvos though it's yet to be seen if it could withstand a sustained barrage of better spec rockets. Meanwhile in Iraq Isis have got their hands on some 80 odd pounds of uranium from Mosul university how in gods name that stuff was just laying around there I do not know . I don't see Hamas having the ability nor the intention of lifting something like that and doing something with it. Those crazy Isis jihadis on the other hand.

Conas · 11-07-2014 8:31pm

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist organisation with the same ideology as the Taliban and Isis. They seek to conquer and destroy Israel and to murder all the Jews in Israel and in the entire world. Check out their charter and see for yourself if you don't believe me
They also seek the establishment of a global Islamic Caliphate.
They believe all infidels - Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists etc should convert or die.
There can be no negotiation with these animals.
Israel should kill them all.

That's quiet a conspiracy theory that you have there. It might work on the minds of Americans though. But the rest of the world don't buy into this global Islamic conspiracy stuff. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide, they aren't all terrorists.

Seems to me, it's the other way around, Israel are looking for any excuse possible to conquer all of the Holy Land. The Israeli goverment were worried that Palestinian unity would bring peace, and now they've had their excuse to smash it into a thousand pieces, and boy god they have taken it. Israel doesn't want peace. All of the conflict across the Middle East plays right into their hands. But like i said earlier in this thread, all the damage that they do will be paid for by the American taxpayer.

Manic Moran · 11-07-2014 9:59pm

WakeUp wrote: »

For all Hamas faults I don't think the above is true . These rockets being fired into Israel ( which I've stated I'm not down with ) their better rockets let's say are being fired in very small salvos - Hamas from their point of view need to respond and be seen to be doing something.

It's gone beyond that stage, though. If 'response' was their goal, then their point is already made. Continued rocketeering at this point, unless out of sheer bloody-mindedness, only has two possible realistic goals. One is to actually kill Israelis (I suspect that the mass barrage you mention isn't tried simply for logistical, not objective reasons), and the other is to goad a response which will garner the sympathy of the international community. Neither will bode well for the other Palestinians.

Brown Bomber · 12-07-2014 1:19am

Conas wrote: »

. But like i said earlier in this thread, all the damage that they do will be paid for by the American taxpayer.

Here it is in action. It's a lesson in how to commit mass-murder indiscriminately.

https://vine.co/v/MPUbqH5ehAZ

Here is list of the dead so far: http://palestinefrommyeyes.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/gazaunderattack-stop-the-palestinian-bloodshed-names-and-ages-of-palestinians-who-fell-victim-to-israel-s-ongoing-attack-on-gaza-palestine/

Brown Bomber · 12-07-2014 1:24am

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's gone beyond that stage, though. If 'response' was their goal, then their point is already made. Continued rocketeering at this point, unless out of sheer bloody-mindedness, only has two possible realistic goals. One is to actually kill Israelis (I suspect that the mass barrage you mention isn't tried simply for logistical, not objective reasons), and the other is to goad a response which will garner the sympathy of the international community. Neither will bode well for the other Palestinians.

You are based in the US. I'm guessing you have or had some military involvement. How would you react personally if Danville, California was occupied and placed under siege by terrorists who were killing your fellow Danvillians indiscriminately? How would you want your local government/militia members to react?

Harry Angstrom · 12-07-2014 2:16am

It's about time the world woke up to what's happening. Hamas fire rockets into Israel, knowing the Israelis will retaliate ten-fold. Cue Israeli rockets fired into Gaza. Cue the pictures of mutilated bodies. Cue the anti-Israeli sentiment. Cue the sympathy towards the Palestinians. It's like a fcuking broken record at this stage.

Conas · 12-07-2014 3:44am

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

It's about time the world woke up to what's happening. Hamas fire rockets into Israel, knowing the Israelis will retaliate ten-fold. Cue Israeli rockets fired into Gaza. Cue the pictures of mutilated bodies. Cue the anti-Israeli sentiment. Cue the sympathy towards the Palestinians. It's like a fcuking broken record at this stage.

If those picture were of mutilated Israel's the whole world would be outraged the media would run with it non-stop. But since it's the inferior Palestinians, ah what the hell, they deserved it, isn't that right Harry? We lose one, we'll kill a thousand of their women and children as revenge.

The world is waking up to the fact that the Americans, and Israeli's have a superiority complex, in which they think of themselves as special, and look upon everyone else as a piece of dirt.

Harry Angstrom · 12-07-2014 4:07am

Conas wrote: »

If those picture were of mutilated Israel's the whole world would be outraged the media would run with it non-stop. But since it's the inferior Palestinians, ah what the hell, they deserved it, isn't that right Harry? We lose one, we'll kill a thousand of their women and children as revenge.

The world is waking up to the fact that the Americans, and Israeli's have a superiority complex, in which they think of themselves as special, and look upon everyone else as a piece of dirt.

Wow. We must be living in a parallel universe, because all I can see and hear at the moment is anti-Israeli sentiment which is bordering on the anti-Semitic. Hamas know full well that if they launch rocket attacks against the Israelis, that the Israelis will fire back, and kill many times more than Hamas are killing, simply because they have far more firepower. Hamas are not stupid and they know they will garner plenty of sympathy throughout the world.

Put it this way, if a bunch of Loyalist paramilitaries were constantly launching rocket attacks on the people of Louth, Cavan, Monaghan or Donegal, would it not be reasonable to expect the Irish government to hit them back??

Nodin · 12-07-2014 5:18am

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

It's about time the world woke up to what's happening. ............

40 years of a brutal occupation?

Harry Angstrom · 12-07-2014 5:19am

Nodin wrote: »

40 years of a brutal occupation?

40 years of Arab terrorism?

Black Swan · 12-07-2014 5:22am

Conas wrote: »

The world is waking up to the fact that the Americans, and Israeli's have a superiority complex, in which they think of themselves as special, and look upon everyone else as a piece of dirt.

MOD REMINDER found earlier in the OP of this thread and in post #120:

Dr Galen wrote: »

This is a Politics forum, not Liveline.

Certain standards of debate are expected, and will be enforced. Your posts must contribute to debate, not derail it or drag it into mob chanting. There's been a serious decrease in the signal to noise ratio in the forum recently, and that trend requires reversal.

If your posts consists of little more than a statement that some group of people or other are bad people... think long and hard before pressing "submit", because we'll be treating that as trolling from here on in.

Nodin · 12-07-2014 5:42am

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

40 years of Arab terrorism?

Palestinian resistance to a program of colonisation internationally recognised as illegal. Denied recourse to the usual non-violent methods, it's hard to see what else they might do. Perhaps you have some suggestions?

Harry Angstrom · 12-07-2014 5:51am

Nodin wrote: »

Palestinian resistance to a program of colonisation internationally recognised as illegal. Denied recourse to the usual non-violent methods, it's hard to see what else they might do. Perhaps you have some suggestions?

Ceasefire from Hamas would be a start.

Manic Moran · 12-07-2014 6:35am

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You are based in the US. I'm guessing you have or had some military involvement. How would you react personally if Danville, California was occupied and placed under siege by terrorists who were killing your fellow Danvillians indiscriminately? How would you want your local government/militia members to react?

I'm not not entirely sure who you're referring to here as who in this analogy.

For all the issues with the settlements, if that's what you're alluding to, they appear not to have been the triggering factor in the current round of unpleasantness. What broke the dam was the issue of the four killed youths. It is unlikely that whoever killed the three Israeli ones will be brought to justice, the killers of the Palestinian kid apparently were caught. There is nothing more to be gained by continued rocket attacks on this matter, the only practical thing they are doing is attracting Israeli military attention, the sort of attention which is hazardous both to your health and those around you.

If Hamas want to take military action in response to the settlement issue, it occurs that they might be best served responding in a manner which makes the obvious association, such as launching rockets at the construction crews and otherwise making life unpleasant for the settlers.

Harry Angstrom · 12-07-2014 7:09am

Manic Moran wrote: »

If Hamas want to take military action in response to the settlement issue, it occurs that they might be best served responding in a manner which makes the obvious association, such as launching rockets at the construction crews and otherwise making life unpleasant for the settlers.

Spot on. I would consider myself to have generally left-leaning beliefs, but I am absolutely sick and tired of the way that the Left latch on to Hamas/Palestine as if it's the default way they should be pre-programmed to think.
The fact is that Hamas know exactly what will happen when they launch rocket attacks on Israel. They are just as culpable as the Israelis when it comes to the deaths of innocent Palestinians. I can't believe that so-called "intelligent" people can't grasp this reality, but it's far too easy to paint the Israelis as the "baddies" and the Palestinians as the "goodies". Wake the fcuk up and think for yourselves for a change.

SeaBreezes · 12-07-2014 10:08am

So, let me get this straight. 3 teenagers disappeared in the west bank. These kids were illegally farming land which had been bulldozed in the last 5 years and the original farmers kicked off, with the farms given to these 3 kids. These three kids dressed and wore clothes that easily identified them as orthodox jew, and to get to their illegal settlement, had to hitchhike through 3 local towns in gaza. Past all those people who have been dispossed and whos farms they now farm. And these stupid kids hitchhiked through these towns regularly. Im actually surprised the kids were not harmed long before. Its akin to 3 orange marchers, in full regalia, marching down the most nationalist streets at the height of the troubles on their own. Dont get me wrong, I disagree with ANY violence, and feel so sorry that their lives ended as they did. But when reading the articles I read that 400 'suspects' were rounded up and 'interrogated'. Seriously? Thats an entire town and not an investigation. Also what I read in one tiny article, is THEN Israel fired at known rocket launcher sites. The palestinian boy was burned alive and suddenly we have a massacre. Anyone who can condone the killing of children for ANY reason should be deeply ashamed of themselves. Im trying to see a peaceful way forward here, but I cannot. Israel should be ashamed. America also. There is no excuse for the continued carnage and suffering of these kids. The blockades, the genocide. I just dont get it. Chain and starve and beat an animal, and you will just get a more dangerous, angrier animal. From what I can see of Israels policies, that is what they are doing to palestinians. How can they ever expect mutual respect and peace when they never give it a chance? And I believe the average Israeli is not comfortable with what is happening now too. Its so awfully sad, and we stand by and let it happen

FTA69 · 12-07-2014 10:31am

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Spot on. I would consider myself to have generally left-leaning beliefs, but I am absolutely sick and tired of the way that the Left latch on to Hamas/Palestine as if it's the default way they should be pre-programmed to think.
The fact is that Hamas know exactly what will happen when they launch rocket attacks on Israel. They are just as culpable as the Israelis when it comes to the deaths of innocent Palestinians. I can't believe that so-called "intelligent" people can't grasp this reality, but it's far too easy to paint the Israelis as the "baddies" and the Palestinians as the "goodies". Wake the fcuk up and think for yourselves for a change.

Hamas could stop firing rockets tomorrow and the Israeli program of dispossession would continue unabated. Land in the West Bank would continue to be seized and colonised, they'd still preside over an apartheid system in East Jerusalem, they'd still encircle the West Bank with an illegal barrier and Gaza would remain blockaded. What Israel is pursuing is a policy of Greater Israel wherein they are trying to strangle the Palestinian people out of existence. This is the plain fact of the matter. I don't see how anyone can side with a process of colonisation or justify pounding an unarmed and poor people with F16s. You might think you're being ferociously independent minded for justifying Israel's policies but in reality you're just siding with things that are plain wrong.

Some people on this thread are trying to portray Gaza as a belligerent nation-state on Israel's doorstep attacking it relentlessly and without provocation; in reality it's an open air prison-camp that is being slowly suffocated and left to fester. Similarly Gaza is part of wider Palestine, it is yet another example of what the Palestinians as a people must put up with. Trying to portray the settlement issue and the colonisation of Jerusalem as being irrelevant to the conflict at the moment is like telling someone in Tipperary that what goes on politically in Dublin has nothing at all to do with them.

Nodin · 12-07-2014 12:39pm

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Ceasefire from Hamas would be a start.

Why would it be? Fatah have been on ceasefire for years now and all they have for their trouble are more settlers and more settlements.

Gringo180 · 12-07-2014 1:32pm

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

40 years of Arab terrorism?

Israel was founded on Zionist and Jewish terrorism, they have killed indiscriminately which includes British soldiers and United Nation representatives. There former prime ministers have blood on there hands, Yitsak Shamir later Israeli prime minister personally assassinated the U.N envoy to Palestine Count Bernadotte of Sweden in 1948. Menachem Begin later Israeli prime minister killed 100 civilians in the Deir Yassin massacre also in 1948. The Jewish terror gangs also hung 2 British Soldiers in the orange groves. I wonder have you ever heard of the King David hotel bombing where 93 British civil servants perished, an act that was carried out by the Irgun gang.

Conas · 12-07-2014 2:32pm

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Wow. We must be living in a parallel universe, because all I can see and hear at the moment is anti-Israeli sentiment which is bordering on the anti-Semitic. Hamas know full well that if they launch rocket attacks against the Israelis, that the Israelis will fire back, and kill many times more than Hamas are killing, simply because they have far more firepower. Hamas are not stupid and they know they will garner plenty of sympathy throughout the world.

Put it this way, if a bunch of Loyalist paramilitaries were constantly launching rocket attacks on the people of Louth, Cavan, Monaghan or Donegal, would it not be reasonable to expect the Irish government to hit them back??

You see you are using keywords, you are too influenced by the likes of the Anti-Defamation League, and Jewish film directors like Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay, who have filled your mind with a lot of powerful imagery, which is built around keywords antisemitism, hate, bigtory, terrorists etc Those are keywords. Just remember the Arabs are semites aswell.

If Israel wasn't violating International Law by building settlements on land that doesn't belong to them, denying these people their basic human rights. Warmongering against nearly every nation in the Middle East. Trying to start wars and getting another country to do the fighting for them, maybe all this wouldn't be happening.

But as JFK said in 1939, the Jewish mentality of 'total domination' as he put it, means this is never going to end.

BlaasForRafa · 12-07-2014 2:47pm

Nodin wrote: »

Why would it be? Fatah have been on ceasefire for years now and all they have for their trouble are more settlers and more settlements.

How is launching rockets at Israel a viable strategy to advance their goals?

brimal · 12-07-2014 3:28pm

Conas wrote: »

But as JFK said in 1939, the Jewish mentality of 'total domination' as he put it, means this is never going to end.

Source please.

Nodin · 12-07-2014 4:27pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

How is launching rockets in Israel a viable strategy to advance their goals?

They think it is, and as they are in the territory not being colonised simply because its too much trouble, you can see why they think that.

Manic Moran · 12-07-2014 5:40pm

Nodin wrote: »

They think it is, and as they are in the territory not being colonised simply because its too much trouble, you can see why they think that.

They probably could take a leaf from Hezbullah's book. Two of the 13 "principles of war" which Hezbullah developed were "The population is a treasure-nurture it" and "Hurt the enemy and then stop before he abandons restraint." The latter is part of the reason that the 2006 incursion was a shock to Hezbullah. They honestly were trying to stay on the other side of the "provoke significant Israeli action" line. The other difference is that Hezbullah were also somewhat in a position to defend against said Israeli action if it happened.

Hamas seems to have a little less care for its own population, and seems to be actively goading the Israelis into larger action at this point. Which of the two organizations has proven the more successful in attaining their goals?

Nodin · 12-07-2014 6:13pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

They probably could take a leaf from Hezbullah's book. Two of the 13 "principles of war" which Hezbullah developed were "The population is a treasure-nurture it" and "Hurt the enemy and then stop before he abandons restraint." The latter is part of the reason that the 2006 incursion was a shock to Hezbullah. They honestly were trying to stay on the other side of the "provoke significant Israeli action" line. The other difference is that Hezbullah were also somewhat in a position to defend against said Israeli action if it happened.

Hamas seems to have a little less care for its own population, and seems to be actively goading the Israelis into larger action at this point. Which of the two organizations has proven the more successful in attaining their goals?

I never said it was a good idea, merely that they believe what they do based on a certain interpretation of the facts. Given the inability of Hamas rockets to inflict any serious damage or consequences on the Israeli state or forces save annoyance and a cause for massive retaliation, I think they're on a hiding to nothing by using them.

BlaasForRafa · 12-07-2014 6:27pm

Nodin wrote: »

They think it is, and as they are in the territory not being colonised simply because its too much trouble, you can see why they think that.

Just saw the reply to MM after I originally posted this message, fair enough.

In any case it seems like less people are falling for the "martyr complex" that Hamas espouse and they're getting less sympathy because a lot of people are starting to realise that continually putting your own people in danger for a patently unachievable goal is just reckless.

Add to that is the fact that Hamas have less allies than in previous escalations, the Iranians are busy with keeping their clients in Iraq in power, the Syrians are embroiled in civil war, Hezbollah are too involved in Syria and the Egyptians are trying to keep a lid on their domestic problems. Hamas's position looks much weaker this time around.

Brown Bomber · 12-07-2014 6:47pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm not not entirely sure who you're referring to here as who in this analogy.

I am referring to you.

I am asking you how you would react and what reaction you would demand of your civic leaders if Danville was surrounded on all sides and placed under siege by ethno-supremacist terrorists. Would you stand by and expect your community leaders to do nothing; even if you were heavily outgunned as these terrorists rounding up hundreds of your neighbours and torturing them, bulldozing their homes, the old women of your neigbourhood being literally frightened to death and slaughtering them from the air?

In other words would you rather die on you feet or live on your knees?

Manic Moran wrote: »

What broke the dam was the issue of the four killed youths..

Nobody deserves to die the way the did but they weren't completely innocent either seeing as they were illegal settlers living off stolen property in their Jews only colony.

That aside, it is apparent to me at least that this is/was a manufactured crisis cynically stage-managed by the right-wing, bloodthirsty lunatics the people of Israel thought fit to govern.. As Obama's original choice for Chief-of-Staff and son of an Irgun terrorist Rahm Emanuel said "never let a good crisis go to waste".

In the first place Shin Bet would/should have been made aware of this incident in virtual real time. The apparent killings of the Israelis were recorded in a phone call made to Israeli police. The scene of the crime could be established with mobile phone tracking.

Second, The PA informed the Israelis of the disappearance of the two suspects within 24 hours of the murders. Within 24 hours of this their homes were raided. I find it hard to believe the shallow graves took so long to find as the Israelis were buried on land belonging to one of the suspects family.

During this time the Israeli public were whipped up into an ultra-nationalistic frenzy by their ultra-nationalist state through racist rhetoric and an imposed a gag order on the media which prevented the details being released confirming the near certainty that the young Israeli men were already dead which would have helped the Israeli mob's bloodlust to subside.

IDF soliders were posting masked pictures of themselves promising genocide or "death to Arabs" in revenge.

T1.jpg?zoom=1.5&resize=436%2C442

While Israelis were kidnapping Arab children and burning them alive in racist attacks and the racial hatred was reaching a crescendo the head of state announces the death of the teenagers and promises more bloodshed and followed in the long line of Israeli leaders in making veiled racist slurs against the Palestinian people.

They were abducted and murdered in cold blood by human animals...Vengeance for the blood of a small child, Satan has not yet created

And it's not just the racist leaders of old he is mimicking. Bibi is also following in his own fathers footsteps.

Q: Operation Cast Lead was one of the worst beatings we ever handed on a civilian population.
A: That’s not enough. It’s possible that we should have hit harder.

Q: You don’t like the Arabs, to say the least.
A: The Bible finds no worse image than that of the man from the desert. And why? Because he has no respect for any law. Because in the desert he can do as he pleases. The tendency toward conflict is in the essence of the Arab. He is an enemy by essence. His personality won’t allow him any compromise or agreement. It doesn’t matter what kind of resistance he will meet, what price he will pay. His existence is one of perpetual war.

More of his disgusting views can found here: http://972mag.com/the-late-benzion-netanyahus-appalling-views-on-arabs/44215/

Including a mentality that perfectly describes the racist mob violence currently occuring in Israel,

On Arab citizens of Israel

I think we should speak to the Israeli Arabs in the language they understand and admire – the language of force. If we act with strength against any crime they commit, they will understand we show no forgiveness. Had we used this language from the start, they would have been more careful.

Brown Bomber · 12-07-2014 6:56pm

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Ceasefire from Hamas would be a start.

You know the suspects were from a rogue element within Hamas right?

Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

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