LPG Conversion

The Pontiac · 03-01-2013 12:00am

Surely €5k for a 2007 (newer model) S80 with only 125k km (77k miles) can't be right? It's on the older tax system, 2.5 litre, but still. http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/4090674

jharr100 · 03-01-2013 12:05am

<Ollie> wrote: »

Surely €5k for a 2007 (newer model) S80 with only 125k km (77k miles) can't be right? It's on the older tax system, 2.5 litre, but still. http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/4090674

Seems cheap but who wants big engined petrols with our crippling tax rates on pre 2008 cars..
How much is the tax on the 2008 2.0T s80 ?

The Pontiac · 03-01-2013 12:11am

jharr100 wrote: »

Seems cheap but who wants big engined petrols with our crippling tax rates on pre 2008 cars..
How much is the tax on the 2008 2.0T s80 ?

I do.

That's the reason they're so cheap though. Although that one seems exceptionally cheap, so I'd have my doubts.

Not sure of the 2008, but that 2007 I linked would be €1,294.

Matt Simis · 03-01-2013 12:31am

jharr100 wrote: »

Seems cheap but who wants big engined petrols with our crippling tax rates on pre 2008 cars..
How much is the tax on the 2008 2.0T s80 ?

Umm... Fuel Costs >>> Tax.
Yeah tax sucks, but when you add up the annual cost of fuel, its the bigger cost and therefore the bigger win in "solving".

mullingar · 03-01-2013 12:38am

Far too many Irish think motor tax is the biggest cost factor in motoring, hence the bargains on high tax cars..

Guess what, Its not, the Fuel and depreciation is and by a big margin too!

Mr Benevolent · 03-01-2013 3:24pm

mullingar wrote: »

Far too many Irish think motor tax is the biggest cost factor in motoring, hence the bargains on high tax cars..

Guess what, Its not, the Fuel and depreciation is and by a big margin too!

Depreciation is a big cost IF you spend a fair bit on a car. For cars of €1500 and under the depreciation is negligible. LPG is a good option if you have a station near you that's cheap enough. An earlier poster mentioned €1.16 per liter, that's very expensive. My nearest LPG garage sells it for €0.85/l for instance. Realistically I could save a fair chunk by converting a 2L to LPG.

sorel · 03-01-2013 9:00pm

Confab wrote: »

Depreciation is a big cost IF you spend a fair bit on a car. For cars of €1500 and under the depreciation is negligible. LPG is a good option if you have a station near you that's cheap enough. An earlier poster mentioned €1.16 per liter, that's very expensive. My nearest LPG garage sells it for €0.85/l for instance. Realistically I could save a fair chunk by converting a 2L to LPG.

Have you seen 1L Toyota Yaris on one of photograph here ?

Merch · 03-01-2013 10:04pm

Stinicker wrote: »

I find the whole thing well worthwhile for the financial savings to be gained. As for comfort the autogas makes little difference to the car and I still have the same boot thanks to the donut tank. I find it a great relief to have the car on gas as it is less of a financial burden now. I have only been running on lpg for the last three months but my annual mileage has increased 12% from 2011. It was the best thing I did with the car and I think I'll drive LPG cars for the rest of my days after this especially if it becomes more readily available around the country.

What kind of mileage do you do? is there a break even for mileage?
And what do you reckon on the L/100km.
It's certainly something I would consider, it seems from reading this thread the variation in power isn't as bad as some say.
If LPG was favoured and they were trying to encourage people that way, lower motor tax might help, but it doesn't seem like either of those are likely.
Are any modifications need to switch LPG usage in vehicles to CNG? I thought they were more or less the same?

mullingar · 03-01-2013 10:12pm

CNG and LPG are 2 very different fuels.

CNG, compressed natural gas, mainly methane. Methane does not liquify too easily and needs to be compressed to extremely high pressure to carry any decent volume around, 100's bars.

LPG, liquified petroleum gas, mainly Butane. Butane is easily compressable and liquifies around 2 bars which makes it a lot easier to carry.

I believe there have been a few explosions of people modifying a LPG tank to take CNG, but the LPG tank will not take the CNG pressures.

Merch · 03-01-2013 11:01pm

mullingar wrote: »

CNG and LPG are 2 very different fuels.

CNG, compressed natural gas, mainly methane. Methane does not liquify too easily and needs to be compressed to extremely high pressure to carry any decent volume around, 100's bars.

LPG, liquified petroleum gas, mainly Butane. Butane is easily compressable and liquifies around 2 bars which makes it a lot easier to carry.

I believe there have been a few explosions of people modifying a LPG tank to take CNG, but the LPG tank will not take the CNG pressures.

I guess I should have said I thought they were similar, I was not aware of the compressibility differences, I guess I didnt really think that out before I said it as I knew propane was heavier than air due to use I've seen in boats and elsewhere, where the bottle is stored outside and has a drain to allow an leaks to spill overboard instead of to where people or ignition sources such as electrics might be, so I'm suprised that methane which i thought is lighter than air (and just checked and it is lighter) is more difficult to compress??
Im sure there is some quality of its chemical structure that accounts for that but it doesnt seem intuitive, guess I need to look over the basics.
I just looked it up and it seems LPG is either butane or propane or a mix.

Matt Simis · 04-01-2013 12:44am

Merch wrote: »

I guess I should have said I thought they were similar, I was not aware of the compressibility differences, I guess I didnt really think that out before I said it as I knew propane was heavier than air due to use I've seen in boats and elsewhere, where the bottle is stored outside and has a drain to allow an leaks to spill overboard instead of to where people or ignition sources such as electrics might be, so I'm suprised that methane which i thought is lighter than air (and just checked and it is lighter) is more difficult to compress??
Im sure there is some quality of its chemical structure that accounts for that but it doesnt seem intuitive, guess I need to look over the basics.
I just looked it up and it seems LPG is either butane or propane or a mix.

It being lighter than air is nothing to do with it, it needs to be compressed far more to be stored and transported. Hydrogen is also (much) lighter than air (LTA) and famously requires upto 10,000psi compression to be stored due to density.

-CNG = 3600psi compression, ultra thick walled cylinders, heavy and not as transportable. Far higher danger if ruptured due to pressure and therefore requires that diamond warning sticker.
-LPG - upto 360psi compression, lighter smaller tanks (picture the small BBQ tanks etc).

Also CNG has less than half the calorific value of LPG, meaning far less range and apparently doesnt ignite as well as LPG (or obviously petrol). Reading only it also appears the energy requirements to pressurise and store CNG to 3600psi is off the wall, which means it has a pricing disadvantage built into its very makeup. Overall, not an attractive auto fuel, but a good fuel for heating or CHP.

PS: LPG in Ireland is Propane only, no butane (so Calor tell me). There are slight differences in combustion in cars between Butane and Propane.
PPS: Check out Hydrogen enriched CNG, sounds interesting, 8times faster flame speed with just 4% hydrogen! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HCNG

mullingar · 04-01-2013 1:11am

Ah yes matt. My typo error, It is propane here, not butane as i mentioned above.

Butane freezes at -2C, Propane -42C, so even a partial butane mix wont work in this country.

Matt Simis · 04-01-2013 1:14am

mullingar wrote: »

Ah yes matt. My typo error, It is propane here, not butane as i mentioned above.

Butane freezes at -2C, Propane -42C, so even a partial butane mix wont work in this country.

Well if LPG took off we could have Summer and Winter mixes, like diesel, that should be ok if the timing of the mixes was conservative (as our weather is all over the place, +12c January 3rd Im looking at you).

Merch · 04-01-2013 1:34am

It does seem that CNG is used in some places, but not as practical for smaller vehicles, such as cars, tank size being the issue.
I did notice the difference in energy density between CNG and LPG
HCNG looks interesting, I believe there was some research done on fueling aircraft soley with hydrogen by the Soviets at least (I think a tupelov design). Im not sure how they fueled the aircraft in use, but it was a tri engined aircraft which had one engine fueled by Hydrogen, Id have to confirm. I think they came across issues of embrittlement in aircraft engines due to the hydrogen interaction with metals, it was on titanium and high strength steels found in aircraft engines, but I wonder would the same issues affect vehicle piston engines, even older ones would likely have some components of steels similar to aircraft (I dont mean titanium).

I dont know if the percentages added to HCNG would have the same effect on metal components.

It'd be interesting to be able to compare the mileage L/100km of a car, compared to the energy density of LPG to petrol.
ie if LPG is X percent cheaper than petrol and X percent less energy per unit of fuel, is it still more efficient cost wise, people seem to be saying it is and quite soon in mileage terms after modifying.

How do the NCT do the emission checks, based on what, I assume the CO2 is lower than the same car burning petrol?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas#CNG_compared_to_LNG

green fuel for europe · 05-01-2013 7:12pm

sorel wrote: »

Have you seen 1L Toyota Yaris on one of photograph here ?

That's cool;) Some people may not believe but even bikes getting lpg conversions, basically it is about the mileage you do than engine size! Or you can calculate other way driving 2.7 petrol engine and price difference for fuel, will cover annual road tax...:D

sorel · 06-01-2013 6:35pm

Originally Posted by sorel
Have you seen 1L Toyota Yaris on one of photograph here ?

green fuel for europe wrote: »

That's cool;) Some people may not believe but even bikes getting lpg conversions, basically it is about the mileage you do than engine size! Or you can calculate other way driving 2.7 petrol engine and price difference for fuel, will cover annual road tax...:D

I saw Chevrolet Matiz 0.8L converted to LPG in UK. funny? dont now...

TheChizler · 06-01-2013 6:50pm

Got the Multipla back from Autogas in Cork yesterday at lunch having dropped it in at 9 the day before. Very impressed, tidy job and no noticeable difference in the power. Price on the pump has gone up to 84.9 c but he's locked it at 79.9 c for us for the year as we signed up before the change. Left with a full tank as well!

On the insurance side he's got a deal with an assessor from Kanturk to do the assessments for €100. Must enquire about when that can be done, think with Zurich we're lacking fire insurance until that assessment's complete. Overall very happy though!

jharr100 · 06-01-2013 6:53pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Got the Multipla back from Autogas in Cork yesterday at lunch having dropped it in at 9 the day before. Very impressed, tidy job and no noticeable difference in the power. Price on the pump has gone up to 84.9 c but he's locked it at 79.9 c for us for the year as we signed up before the change. Left with a full tank as well!

On the insurance side he's got a deal with an assessor from Kanturk to do the assessments for €100. Must enquire about when that can be done, think with Zurich we're lacking fire insurance until that assessment's complete. Overall very happy though!

Excellent,
what year is the Multipla?
How much was the conversion in total?

The Pontiac · 06-01-2013 6:57pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Got the Multipla back from Autogas in Cork yesterday at lunch having dropped it in at 9 the day before. Very impressed, tidy job and no noticeable difference in the power. Price on the pump has gone up to 84.9 c but he's locked it at 79.9 c for us for the year as we signed up before the change. Left with a full tank as well!

On the insurance side he's got a deal with an assessor from Kanturk to do the assessments for €100. Must enquire about when that can be done, think with Zurich we're lacking fire insurance until that assessment's complete. Overall very happy though!

Good to hear. What type of setup did you get, the doughnut in the spare wheel department, or the tank and what size?

Do you mind me asking how much it cost?

TheChizler · 06-01-2013 7:13pm

jharr100 wrote: »

Excellent,
what year is the Multipla?
How much was the conversion in total?

Car's an 07 1.4 L mutipla. We've a bit of awkward setup as the car is converted for drive-in wheelchair use, so the spare wheel type wouldn't work. Ended up with a 30 L cylindrical tank mounted in a frame they built themselves in the rear. Fills from next to the petrol inlet, fiat must have built these with conversion in mind as there was a perfect space for the nozzle.

Yer man charges a flat rate of €1000, includes a fill of gas and whatever size tank or custom mountings. Took a bit longer than normal for us as the tank had to be custom built, but normally 2 weeks from first contact to completion he says.

The Pontiac · 06-01-2013 7:20pm

Sounds like a very fair price.

Merch · 06-01-2013 7:43pm

so, I assume a pre 08 vehicle will stay on a motor tax per engine cc.
Is there a reduction in CO2 in an LPG converted engine?
Is that reflected in any cert from the installers?

If the vehicle is an 08 or newer, then is a reduction (or increase) in CO2 reflected in the motor tax, or does it still stay on the tax it was born with?

If there a reduction in CO2 produced from an LPG converted engine? which I suspect is the case.

Mr Benevolent · 06-01-2013 8:17pm

Merch wrote: »

so, I assume a pre 08 vehicle will stay on a motor tax per engine cc.
Is there a reduction in CO2 in an LPG converted engine?
Is that reflected in any cert from the installers?

If the vehicle is an 08 or newer, then is a reduction (or increase) in CO2 reflected in the motor tax, or does it still stay on the tax it was born with?

If there a reduction in CO2 produced from an LPG converted engine? which I suspect is the case.

Motor tax is unchanged, pre and post 08 for LPG. Pity.

Merch · 06-01-2013 8:35pm

Confab wrote: »

Motor tax is unchanged, pre and post 08 for LPG. Pity.

So LPG converted do produce less CO2?
It undermines the motor tax based on emissions if reductions in emissions aren't accounted for, its not like much revenue is lost as the amount of vehicles being converted is a tiny amount out of the total vehicles on the road really.

TheChizler · 06-01-2013 8:49pm

We were told ours was probably 25-30% less CO2 but there's no mechanism for tax reduction in the ROI unlike the UK.

Matt Simis · 06-01-2013 9:23pm

Merch wrote: »

So LPG converted do produce less CO2?
It undermines the motor tax based on emissions if reductions in emissions aren't accounted for, its not like much revenue is lost as the amount of vehicles being converted is a tiny amount out of the total vehicles on the road really.

Yes but you are aware our motor tax system (both VRT and annual) is routed in commercial interests and generally poorly thought out assumptions mixed with lack of ongoing oversight... this shouldnt be a surprise.

ESB and other commericals want to increase revenue of 10year period, Revenue reduces tax on EVs.
There is no strong LPG lobby here, so we are SOL much like Bio diesel users which is nearly 100% renewable so have better than EV carbon footprint.

Merch · 06-01-2013 11:55pm

TheChizler wrote: »

We were told ours was probably 25-30% less CO2 but there's no mechanism for tax reduction in the ROI unlike the UK.

probably? do they not measure it?
It would be interesting to know for comparison purposes.

Definitely an interesting middle cost effective road between most current vehivles and their emissions and any future improvements on emission reductions on petrol engines.

I suppose its moot given there is no benefit in motor tax for a post 08, but do the NCT measure it?
It would be an interesting green-en-ing of luxo barges and larger engined vehicles, keep viable vehicles on the road, even if it was just for existing vehicles rather than anything new? but I guess they dont want to encourage that

Matt Simis · 07-01-2013 12:26am

Merch wrote: »

probably? do they not measure it?
It would be interesting to know for comparison purposes.
I suppose its moot given there is no benefit in motor tax for a post 08, but do the NCT measure it?

NCT dont measure CO2, just CO levels.

See this slightly pro but slightly conservative (and incorrect) hippy analysis http://www.nextgreencar.com/lpg-cng.php

Are LPG and natural gas cars better for the environment?
In principle, carbon emissions from LPG and natural gas are reduced due to their low carbon content and high octane level. Methane is the main constituent of natural gas, which is also an important greenhouse gas and so must be taken into account when assessing the impact on global warming. Taking both carbon dioxide and methane into account, as well as the fact that using LPG increases fuel consumption by around 30%, bi-fuel gas cars show an improvement of around 10-15% as compared to those using petrol, and are therefore comparable with diesel greenhouse gas emissions.

Regulated emissions are reduced for LPG and natural cars compared to conventional fuels. Even compared to petrol, which itself is low in NOx, the best quality bi-fuel gas engines produce fewer NOx emissions and virtually eliminate emissions of particulates. For natural gas vehicles, the unburned hydrocarbons (such as methane) also contribute less to tropospheric-ozone formation than do the volatile organic compounds present in petrol exhaust emissions.Larger emission reductions are provided by mono-fuelled (dedicated gas) engines – however, bi-fuel vehicles are the most common LPG car type available in the UK.
However, the greenhouse gas emission benefits of using gas vehicles is changing over time, as the fuel economy of conventional petrol improves. Before to long, the benefits of the 'road gases' will be confined to regulated emissions and noise reduction.

My views on the above, noting its not from an LPG installer (who go the other extreme):

I would debate the 30% fuel consumption increase (thats like 20years ago tech), at 10% increase it puts LPG at better than Diesel CO2 levels while better than Petrol particulate and NOX. Its easily the cleanest of the 3 viable mineral fuels.

Not sure what the last line refers to as the improvements in Petrol engines indirectly benefit LPG too as they move toward forced induction, high compression and FSI type injection, all of which work better with 130octane LPG right out of the box. LPG is simply a cleaner baseline fuel and therefore always will trump petrol and diesel.

"Bi-Fueled" vehicles not being as clean as mono-fuel LPG vehicles is a futile and misleading differentiation as "bi-fuel" vehicles only start on petrol, they dont use petrol when running at all (unless poorly installed or poorly maintained with inadequate LPG supply rate). The 5min of running on petrol would output truly insignificant amounts of harmful emissions when viewed over the lifetime of service. We are not even close to the point where everything else is so squeaky clean that mere minutes of emissions should be included as a factor.

TheChizler · 07-01-2013 4:05am

Merch wrote: »

probably? do they not measure it?
It would be interesting to know for comparison purposes.

They mentioned they had the equipment for it as we were leaving, said just call in for 15 minutes any day and they'd hook it up. We have to go back for a 1000 km check-up so we said we'd do it then.

sorel · 07-01-2013 9:33pm

is there any chance or way to pay lower TAX in IRL when converted to autogas?.

LPG Conversion

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