Who do you consider to be Irish ?

indioblack wrote: »

slowburner wrote: »

I miss Marchdub.

Yes - didn't always agree with him - but he was usually right!

Who is marchdub?

gbee wrote: »

Populations, yes.

However, a settlement was found somewhere in Washington State and DNA says they are European and not Indian which they predate. The settlement seemingly died out.

A US court has ruled the remains to be tribal Indian and they have been removed and re-buried in a secret location preventing any further archaeology.

Due to shallow seas and ice dams it is thought that explorations between Europe and Canada were much earlier than previously thought. Trade between Europe and Newfoundland was 'common' by 1050CE or so with some earlier missions as much as a thousand years previously all made possible by the level of the ice fields which have all receded over the millennia.

The Vikings left resettlement traces in Newfoundland from around 1000CE and they are known to have traded with pre existing Indians. The Washington site is right across the county leaving speculation as to weather northern 'USA' was under water or a circumnavigation from Europe has occurred.

No viable ancient-DNA has been extracted from any such remains found in modern US. I know the case though, he's known "Kennewick Man" the idea that it's was "European" is based off physical remains (head shape, anthropology etc.).

Of course I should point out that most modern European men share common ancestry with most modern Native American men alot closer then say either share with Chinese men. To labour my point.

The most common Y-Chromosome Haplogroup among Native American men is Haplogroup Q. Apart from been found in the americas it's also found in Siberia and as west as Scandinavia.



It's "Brother" is Haplogroup R, both haplogroups share a common ancestor in the form of Paragroup P on the order of 30-40,000 years ago.



The other major haplogroup among Native Americans is C, this is prominent among speakers of Ne Dene languages (such as Navajo, apache etc.) it's theorized that it represents a second migrational affect into North American land mass over the Bering "landbridge"

Sindri wrote: »

Different just like large portions of Britain, France and Northern Spain?

Give me your email address or just create a new one and I shall forward you on the study I was alluring to. I have it saved to PDF on my PC.

We have been here longer than the red lads have been native to America. We are a mash of Northern European ethnic groups. But a lot of them, barely made a print on our DNA. As I said, in 2001, 90 per cent of us were directly descendant from the original "first people" of these wee islands. Thats pretty unique. We can be PC and tell a lad who hasnt a drop of Caucasian blood in him, that he is as Irish as Brian Boru. Or we can be honest with ourselves and admit that we are a unique people and one cannot become ethnically Irish. You either are, or you are not. Look up the diseases that are, traditionally, an Irish problem.

Sindri wrote: »

Campbell is also a native Irish name. In parts of east Ulster there was a Gaelic surname that was similar to the name Campbell and because of the proximity to the plantations from Scotland it was anglicized to Campbell.

Indeed well several processes that affect angliscation of names. The same is evident obvious with Mac an Ghabhainn -> Smyth. Even then Campbell of course is a "Gaelic name" anyways, though in this case with origin in the Highlands.

CAIMBÉAL—XII—Cambell, Campbell, etc.; Irish 'cam' and 'béal,' i.e., wry-mouthed, originally an epithet or nickname which in course of time supplanted the real surname; not from Norman 'de Campobello,' as some have imagined. The original surname is said to have been Ó Duibhne. Sir Colin Mór Caimbéal, lord of Lochawe, who was knighted by Alexander III, and from whom the Duke of Argyll derives the title of Mac Cailean Mór by which he is known in the Highlands to the present day, was the seventh in descent from Duibhne, the ancestor from whom the family took their original surname of Ó Duibhne. The Campbells were long the most formidable of the Scottish clans, and the name is now one of the most numerous in Scotland.

Crooked Mouth indeed, especially given some of their carry on over the years.

If you were born in Ireland, you're Irish. If you've lived here since you were a child, then you're half Irish, and half wherever you came from. If you have parents or grandparents and so on who were Irish, you are of Irish descent.

If someone is born on this Island and feel connected to it in some degree, then they can certainly describe themselves as Irish. This is despite perhaps having any sort of Irish heritage, as in the case of the OP.

Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, and James Joyce could not be identified as ethnically Irish, having been descended from landed families. They perhaps would have described their Irishness as being a particular type of Irishness, both similar and distant from what could be termed as the Indigenous Irish.

North of the Border is perhaps the best example of the dissonance which exists in the Irish identity. The Orangeman, whilst he may vehemently deny it, is a particular type of Irishman; ethnically and culturally dissimilar from us, but ultimately a man of this Island. LordSutch, as he pointed out earlier, chooses to identify himself with what he assumes is his British heritage. Whilst he certainly would not deny that he is Irish by consequence of birth, one would assume that he identifies more with what could be described as the "New Irish" than anything else.

The question of identity is incredibly convoluted, and no more so in Ireland. So, to avoid the inevitable pitfalls of diving into questions of heritage and genealogy, I would advise the OP to simply consider himself Irish if he does in fact happen to feel Irish.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Why? Are you suggesting any family that managed to hang on to its property somehow stopped being "ethnically" irish? What if the "landed family" was in a direct line from the old irish kings? What if they caved under the new english rulers and converted?

None of the people I mentioned could be referred to as ethnically Irish (With the exception of Joyce); in the sense that they're not descended from the Indigenous Irish stock and usually wouldn't subscribe to Irish Culture or Traditions. Typically they would be described as being members of the Protestant Ascendancy or the Anglo-Irish contingent; and in some cases as the "New Irish".

I'm sure that this label has lost most of it's meaning in recent years, and most of the Anglo-Irish contingent would now consider themselves to be wholly Irish, but this was not always the case. They were a living example of how vast the spectrum of Irishness is, and still remains.

As I mentioned before, there is nothing limiting the OP from describing himself as Irish.

LordSutch wrote: »

Good posts, you seem to have a good grasp of the nuances of 'Irishness' /Anglo-Irishness old bean.

That's what living in Northern Ireland will do to you

IrishAm wrote: »

We have been here longer than the red lads have been native to America.

That is the second time in this thread that you have use a racist epithet. Are you just doing that for the fun of it, or are you a racist?

IrishAm wrote: »

I was born in Dublin. As were my people as far back as I can go.

The anti treatyites destroyed me doing our family tree. They destroyed the Custom House.

While the burning of the records in the Custom House is certainly very regrettable from a genealogy point of view, there are other records available.

WildSaffron wrote: »

Great map.

Interesting that locally we find DNA that is mostly Spanish - and places like Newgrange seem to have been built by the French.

We don't, the French are considerably closer to the Irish autosomal (Across the entire genome) then we are to the Spanish. Which given the geographical difference is understandable.

R1b is indeed common in Spain, however the varities of Y-Chromosome R1b (male lineage) found in Spain are from a Parallel branch to those found in Ireland. Eg. the Irish ones are not derived generally from what is seen in Spain. If anything most R1b lineages found in Ireland probably derive from the area that is now France.

In reality Tailtiu was probably a goddess who was secularized in the 8th/9th century AD "Book of Invasions" narrative.