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Who do you consider to be Irish ?
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OP, I'm afraid you'll never be fully Irish, much as I would accept you as such with no problem.
It's because the majority of the "Irish" would look at your skin colour and automatically class you as an Immigrant.
On the other hand, I'm a white Anglo Saxon and very often I've been asked "why did you decide to Come Home?"
The Big R...
Join the club! When I worked in England I was always referred to as a Paddy but here I'm still asked if I'm enjoying my holiday. I was happiest on the Isle of Man.
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I define originally by the term indigenous. Which basically means, first people. Or, to simplify, first inhabitants.
Men with Gaelic surnames coming from the west of Ireland are descendants of the oldest inhabitants of Europe. In a recent study, scientists at Trinity College, Dublin, created a new genetic map of the people of Ireland. By comparing this map to European genetic maps they have shown that the Irish are one of the last remnants of the pre-Neolithic hunters and gatherers who were living throughout Europe over 10,000 years ago, before the invention of agriculture. The Irish really ARE different.
http://www.insideireland.com/sample19.htm
Different just like large portions of Britain, France and Northern Spain?0 -
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The ethnicity issue arose from post#65, hence my reply to her . . .
Interesting about the Fitzpatricks though, I always thought the Normans brought over many names with them when they arrived, Fitzpatrick being one of the biggest of them, (but that's obviously not true according to this thread), which leads me to ask "So what names did arrive with the Normans"? Then there's the subsequent plantations which presumably left a hefty number of Anglo surnames behind. I read that my own surname arrived in the mid 1600s with the plantations, my wife's too, and I presume this also applies to many other Irish surnames which arrived a few hundred years ago from the island next door . . .
Its an interesting topic alright.
If you look at the top 50 most common Irish surnames, the following are definitely Cambro-Norman (cambro= welsh)
4. Walsh/Welsh = Breathnach -- literally "welshman"
29. Burke
36. Fitzgearld
The following are ambiguous, could be either "Gaelic Irish" or later.
5. Smith -- Mac Gabhainn = McGowan -- direct translation, as well as of later english source -- heavy concentration in historic Mac Gabhainn area of Cavan/Monaghan
17. Lynch -- can be either Gaelic or Norman
26. Wilson
31. Campbell -- Scottish
37. Brown -- Norman but also direct translation from irish
50. White -- as above
The thing that is generally forgotten is that the Normans who arrived in the late 12th century/early 13th century were generally "Cambro-Normans" eg they were mixed Norman welsh. They brought with them a large number of Welsh troops in the form of Longbowmen and "Men at arms". This is one of main reasons why Walsh (= Welshman) is in the top 4 surnames in Ireland. It's distrubition is heavily concentrated in the South-East and in Connacht.
Most of the Norman lords in this period ended up marrying Irish women. Within 2 generations nearly all of major lords either had irish wives or Irish mothers. The result is a massive gaelication that occurred.
Great post on the whole topic here from BannasidheBannasidhe wrote: »Don't assume an Irish name means Catholic - many Irish 'converted' when they submitted- the best example being the O'Briens earls of Thomond who were Anglican and one can't get more Irish then the descendants of Boru!
Race is often brought into this when, in fact, the concept of 'race' as we know it was only beginning to develop and didn't really start to be a major issue until much later. The main issues of contention then were religion and culture. In Ireland under the Tudors Culture was the main thing with far more emphasis being placed on the annihilation of Gaelic culture then on religious conversion.
It might be worth discussing the Gaelic Irish conception of 'race' here. To them there were two types of people - An Gael (the 'Irish') and An Gáll (everyone else!). The Scots confused the issue a bit as they were also 'Gaelic' but when living in Ireland were usually referred to as Gálloglaigh (gallowglass - foreign warrior).
When the Gaelic Irish referred to their 'race' they meant their specific Clan and their 'country' was their clan lands. Although they may collectively occasionally refer to themselves as 'Irish' - this was more akin to us calling ourselves 'European' than an assumption of a national identity.
A person's 'race' was defined by their surname - descent was patrilinier [i.e through the male line].
To illustrate by way of example:
Gráinne Ní Mháille (Lit - Gráinne daughter of [distant male ancestor] Máille) was An Gael. Her 'country' was Umhall Uí Máille - now Murrisk in Mayo.
Her first husband was Domhnaill Na Chogaidh Ua Flaithbhertaigh (Domhnaill son of [distant male ancestor] Flaithbhertaigh of Iar Chonnacht. Also An Gael.
They had a daughter Máireadh Ni Fhlaithbhertaigh - she was An Gael. She married Risteard Mac Deamon an Chorrán á Búrc of Erris[ descendent of William Concur de Burgh via Eamonn Albanach á Búrc and Sabh Ní Mháille who founded the Mayo Bourkes) - An Gáll as his patrilinier line of descent was not Gaelic. Culturally he was completely Gaelic and fought against Anglicisation his entire life. Máireadh and Mac Deamon had a son - Daithi á Búrc = An Gáll.
Gráinne and Domhnaill's son Muirtaigh Na Moar Ua Flaithbhertaigh - An Gael - married Cáitriona á Búrc -[ also descended from William Concur de Burgh but of the Galway branch) An Gáll. Their children were all 'An Gael'.
When Domhnaill died, Gráinne returned to Umhall Uí Máille - i.e. her 'race' and her 'country' as her husband's death had ended the marriage alliance and as a 'foreigner' she had no business being in Iar Chonnacht. Her 3 children from the marriage stayed as they were of the 'race' of Flaithbhertaigh.
Gráinne later married Risteard In Iarainn á Búrc of Burrishoole (Mayo Bourkes]- (Risteard In Iarainn was the nephew of Gráinne's first husband via the marriage of Daithi á Búrc to Fionnghula Ní Fhlaithbhertaigh) he was An Gáll. They had one son - Tibboid na Long á Búrc - Yup, he was An Gáll. He married Meabh Ni Chonchobhair Sligigh - guess what she was...yes..An Gael! but their children bore the surname á Búrc making them all An Gáll.
The Uí Chonchobhair Sligigh was loyal to the crown of England but Sliocht Ullig - one of the 4 main septs of the Mayo Bourkes (collectively known as the Mac Uilliam Íochtair) [Sliocht Ullig's 'country' was Burrishoole, Erris and Achill] of whom Gáinne's second husband, youngest son and son-in-law were all members (and at some point all sept leaders and holders of the banned title of Mac Uilliam Íochtair) engaged in a 30 year war to try and prevent Anglicisation. Richard Bingham particularly targeted them for harsh reprisals - including the hanging of 3 children under 5 in 1586.
So the main opposition to the Tudors in North Connacht was conducted by people who called themselves 'English' but refused to give up Gaelic Culture while among those aiding the Crown were the (Anglican) O'Briens of Thomond - descendants of Ború and Uí Chonchobhair Sligigh - descendent of the O'Connor kings of Connacht and (occasional) high kings of Ireland. All of them 'Irish' to the core.
When we say Irish fought English - who exactly were the 'Irish' and who were the 'English'? Perhaps this blurring of the racial boundaries is why the powerful, rebellious and utterly committed to Gaelic culture Mac Uilliam Íochtair á Búrcs of Mayo are nearly invisible in Irish historiography - even though they fought longer and harder than anyone else against the Tudors and were the reason Connacht remained the most 'Irish' of the provinces...but they called themselves 'English'....
It's a funny old world when ya have a poke at it!0 -
Different just like large portions of Britain, France and Northern Spain?
The problem with that map is it's specifically of European R1b distrubition among men, this is way up the tree. In context of western Europe nearly all the R1b belongs to R1b-M269 (R1b1a2) -- on order of 110million men.
70% of Irishmen belong to a further branch of this marked by the SNP L21 (S145) -- R1b1a2a1a1b3. Here are two maps that show distrubition of this. All L21+ men are descended from one man who probably lived during the Bronze age on the continent.
The heaviest concentrations of L21 are in areas that were Celtic speaking sometime in the last 2,500-3,000 years.0 -
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