Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Kimmage seeks criminal investigation into Vebruggen/McQuaid - Mod Warning Post #1

Options
1…34689…11

Comments

  • Options
    #152
    Flandria
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭Flandria


    Dick Pound's thoughts on UCI vs Kimmage and the Armstrong saga...

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12997/Richard-Pound-Interview-The-Kimmage-case-Armstrong-the-governance-of-cycling-and-more.aspx

    I like his optimism

    VN: Finally, the Paul Kimmage fund continues to grow. Do you think that for a governing body to see that, that it could also be a catalyst and make them realise they risk losing the public’s faith and support? There seems to be a lot of discontent over this action…

    RP: Well, if somebody intelligent looks at that and says, ‘you realise what this means for our federation? It means that people don’t believe us and they believe that we are acting improperly on this issue. Maybe we’d better rethink what we are doing.’

    Now, whether they are smart enough to pay attention and figure out what that means, I don’t know. I hope they are, but if they don’t, my guess is that they are in for a fairly severe bruising, both in front of the courts and also in front of the public...


  • Options
    #153
    AnnH64
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭AnnH64


    Also , in the interests of a balanced perspective, Landis and Hamilton, who Paul Kimmage and aDavid Walsh portray as heroes, only wrote their books after the UCI, yes that federation that people say brushes drug positives under the carpet, caught them, and banned them, and fought their appeals, which were funded by friends, families and strangers via their respective "Fairness Funds", both cheats, then proven liars!


  • Options
    #154
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,533 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I don't think anyone in this thread is portraying Kimmage as a saint, and indeed a few posters have been quite critical of him in this forum.

    However who is pursuing the vendetta here? Why do McQuaid and the UCI want to sue him? Perhaps if they would back-off a little they could regain a little of the credibility they have lost on this issue and the whole Armstrong saga


  • Options
    #155
    Diarmuid
    Registered Users Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    Paul kimmage has nothing to do with the fact that your brother has presided over some of the most shameful and disgraceful behaviour by an organising body in sport.

    Even at this late stage, he should attempt to salvage some credibility for professional cycling and his own name by admitting his mistakes and resigning.


  • Options
    #156
    el tel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,991 ✭✭✭el tel


    AnnH64 wrote: »
    Has anybody who has followed this story stopped and reflected for a minute that Paul Kimmage might have an agenda and maybe even a 'personal' vendetta against Pat McQuaid? I declare here and now that I have a personal relationship with Pat McQuaid - he is my eldest brother. When we were growing up at home six of my seven brothers were racing cyclists (after their father before them) - cycling is in the blood (not epo!). My brothers, including Pat, were pretty handy on the bike and represented Ireland on many occasions at international level. Discussions during mealtimes were always dominated by cycle racing, invariably about the battles fought out on the road between the Kimmages (including Paul) and the McQuaid boys in that week's races or the strategies to be employed in upcoming races to beat them. Indeed I gather Paul's father Christie and our father Jim were rivals on the bike before them back in the 50s.

    Pat McQuaid and Paul Kimmage both went on to join Professional teams and both were undoubtedly faced with the temptation/pressure to take drugs to enhance their performance. Paul Kimmage raced away for a number of years, as he admitted himself in his infamous book, taking drugs to improve his performance and just stay in the game as a domestique while Pat McQuaid it would seem took the decision after not more than a year as a pro that without taking drugs he would not have what it took to get to the top in bike racing so he retired from racing and pursued another career as a race promoter and then with the Irish Cycling Federation and UCI.

    Only when Paul Kimmage retired from racing, and no longer had a vested financial interest in keeping quiet about it, did he write his book about the sport being rife with drugs!! Where is the integrity in that? Since he bore his soul, he has seemed intent on pinning the responsibility for his poor moral choice on the shoulders of others, be they Pat McQuaid, Hein Verbruggen, the UCI in general or Lance Armstrong to name but a few of his targets. Is Paul Kimmage resentful that Pat McQuaid didn't have the weakness of character Paul demonstrated by taking drugs and turning a blind eye to the immorality of what he was making a living at.

    I am not for a minute saying that cycling does not have to seriously clean its act up - it does. The UCI has a major part to play in that. But I believe that in comparison to other sports the UCI has been aggressive in its fight against doping since Pat took office. It is not an easy task because they are constrained by the Laws of the land.

    I was personally affected by the dishonesty of the peloton when in 1998 I was a publisher of a number of cycling magazines, including the Official Guide of the Tour de France. We had invested heavily in the Guide that year, producing English, French, German and even an Irish language edition to celebrate the Tour's Grand Départ in Ireland. When the Festina affair hit the fan it had a huge impact on our sales and we lost a lot of money that year which eventually put us out of business. So I could easily feel that the greed and dishonesty of the riders played no small part in costing me my livelihood. But ultimately I take responsibility for the decisions I took.

    Paul Kimmage, through the notoriety he gained from the controversy surrounding his book has gone on to write about other sports including football and golf. I don't see him delving into the rights, wrongs and corruption in those sports and there are many issues. Of course not, he is not going to bite off the hand that feeds him....yet again. It's easy for him to pull cycling's house down - he doesn't stand to lose out financially from that any more. Sadly, it seems as if he feels it may purge him of his own feelings of guilt. I fear it won't.

    A lot is said about the fact that Paul Kimmage in currently unemployed. It may just be that he is not a very good writer and publishers may consider him to be more of a liability. He seems to have a strong sense of 'entitlement' both as a former professional bike rider and now as a would be journalist.

    Paul Kimmage has some support of late among journalists, many of them my friends and former colleagues, because the truth is many of them are running for cover. They have written for years about the 'heroic, superhuman' exploits of top cyclists, knowing full well that many of them were using performance enhancing drugs. The journalists were not willing to confront the cyclists with their suspicions because it would probably have meant they would no longer have access to them for interviews etc. Now that the genie is out of the bottle they too are trying to position themselves on the moral high ground. I for one am not convinced!!

    All I'm asking for here is a bit of balance in the discussion. Paul Kimmage is being painted as a saint and Pat McQuaid as a villain. Neither portrayal is true. Paul Kimmage is a former doper. He lied to the fans and no doubt to his family and friends for years while he raced. He says he didn't take any of the hard stuff because he couldn't afford it... Perhaps that's like Lance Armstrong saying he didn't dope. We only have their word for it.

    Can you point out what exactly is the 'personal' aspect of Kimmage's issue with Pat McQuaid?

    The way I see it, is that if the UCI are heading for a kick in the nuts, it's the nuts at the top that are in the firing line.

    It's like when you want to take down a circus - you aim for the juggler.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #157
    AnnH64
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭AnnH64


    This example springs to mind:
    Paul Kimmage ‏@PaulKimmage
    David, good news, found a real pitbull of a lawyer to go after those two ****ers.

    Paul Kimmage ‏@PaulKimmage
    Ooops, sorry that was supposed to be a private message to @DavidWalshST


  • Options
    #158
    Flandria
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭Flandria


    Oh dear... loose cannon goes off


  • Options
    #159
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,055 ✭✭✭buffalo


    AnnH64 wrote: »
    Has anybody who has followed this story stopped and reflected for a minute that Paul Kimmage might have an agenda and maybe even a 'personal' vendetta against Pat McQuaid?

    The term 'personal' might be better applied to a lawsuit concerning a newspaper article that does not target the publication, but the author.


  • Options
    #160
    TheBlaaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭TheBlaaMan


    AnnH, its admirable that you stand up for Pat McQuaid - I'd expect nothing else of a sibling, and you do it well. That said, you are too close to the matter to be able to offer a 'balanced' point of view and your opinions, while undoubtedly heart-felt, are severely coloured by that loyalty.

    That you are bitter about the current situation is clear: to suggest that Kimmage is "not a very good writer" flies in the face of peer opinions of him, and I think his awards speak for themselves, do you not?

    Pat McQuaid, as recently as the World Championships last month, he had the audacity to say that the UCI had no culpability in regard to the problem of drugs in cycling..........I think only his closest acolytes would agree with this stance. The current UCI management have (a bit like our last government) completely lost the confidence of the cycling public (do we matter?). Your brother has a massive vested interest in maintaining the status-quo at the top of cycling. Pat McQuaid and Hein Verbruggen cling to power not in the interest of the betterment of cycling, but simply to ingratiate themselves and ensure that they keep their heads in the trough that provides them with exceedingly well paid, power wielding positions.

    It may be an overused cliche, but if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. PMcQ may not himself be the problem, but he is the figurehead for the UCI and if he is not directly culpable he is at a minimum (my opinion) a sorry puppet for the machinations of Hein Verbruggen who is most definitely at the root of the UCI's problems.

    It is sad to see. Our sport deserves to be better served by its leaders. They have presided over cycling through dark days and have time and again showed that they are simply incapable of delivering the sort of change that is needed. This has NOTHING to do with Paul Kimmage's opinions, or otherwise, and you do no service to the sport by trying to pitch the issue to be simply PK v PMcQ. It has everything to do with cycling's future. THAT is why Pat McQuaid and Hein Verbruggen need to go.


  • Options
    #161
    Ray Burkes Pension
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭Ray Burkes Pension


    AnnH64 wrote: »
    I was personally affected by the dishonesty of the peloton when in 1998 I was a publisher of a number of cycling magazines, including the Official Guide of the Tour de France. We had invested heavily in the Guide that year, producing English, French, German and even an Irish language edition to celebrate the Tour's Grand Départ in Ireland. When the Festina affair hit the fan it had a huge impact on our sales and we lost a lot of money that year which eventually put us out of business. So I could easily feel that the greed and dishonesty of the riders played no small part in costing me my livelihood. But ultimately I take responsibility for the decisions I took.

    Wonder how got what looked like a good earner at the time.
    McQuaid has taken money from the UCI over the years even though he's not supposed to be salaried.

    Tell us about your brother cycling in South Africa during apartheid and being banned from the Olympics for life.

    He has no place running any sporting organisation.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #162
    Berksrider
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭Berksrider


    I've just seen a link to this thread on Twitter. I've got no connection to anyone involved, I'm just an ordinary cycling fan, who goes out at the weekend getting muddy on mountain bikes.

    When I first read Rough Ride, I was left with a picture of Kimmage as a bitter failed pro. But I look back at myself then and see realise I was just a young, idealistic, naive cycling fan in intense denial. Today, I look at the years since I first read it, and I feel incredibly thankful that he, and a few others, have kept up the fight for the integrity of this sport for all these years. It has been a hard lesson: I believed the Armstrong myth, I cheered Tyler and his collarbone to a huge solo win, I roared on Millar in the World Championship, and I sat in astonishment watching Floyd win back a lost Tour. All lies. All such a waste of a beautiful sport.

    As for the UCI's credibility, well just reading the correspondence this year from WADA (http://www.scribd.com/RaceRadio) is enough to show what those at the frontline of the anti-doping fight feel about them. If I sit in my office and ask a room full of non-cycling fans what they think of the sport, I bet 90% or more of them start with doping. The good guys like Ashenden are frozen out, the Omerta still clearly grips the peloton. All on the UCI's watch. They've had their chance, and I'm drawing my own conclusions about their desire to succeed.

    Kimmage is a huge hope to me as a cycling fan. Cantankerous sometimes, unsubtle other times, but a really strong writer and a forceful personality who has dedicated a career to fighting for something I desparately want. For once, there is light at the end of a very dark tunnel. I'm steeled for disappointment but I'm also full of hope.


  • Options
    #163
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    The journalists were not willing to confront the cyclists with their suspicions

    And yet an organisation with your brother as its head initiates a vindictive law suit against an individual, not the publications that publishes the stories, when a journalist does just this.


  • Options
    #164
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    AnnH64 wrote: »
    A lot is said about the fact that Paul Kimmage in currently unemployed. It may just be that he is not a very good writer and publishers may consider him to be more of a liability. He seems to have a strong sense of 'entitlement' both as a former professional bike rider and now as a would be journalist.

    "Would be journalist". LOL. It brings to mind the Chewbacca Defence.


  • Options
    #165
    el tel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,991 ✭✭✭el tel


    AnnH64 wrote: »
    This example springs to mind:
    Paul Kimmage ‏@PaulKimmage
    David, good news, found a real pitbull of a lawyer to go after those two ****ers.

    Paul Kimmage ‏@PaulKimmage
    Ooops, sorry that was supposed to be a private message to @DavidWalshST

    And I don't suppose that Pat McQuaid and Hein V. think Paul Kimmage is a ****er?

    They are suing him. Some might say vexatiously. The sentiment in that tweet is the least I'd expect from someone in his position.


  • Options
    #166
    alfalad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭alfalad


    Firstly, well done on you for posting, and you make your points very well.

    I am not for a minute saying that cycling does not have to seriously clean its act up - it does. The UCI has a major part to play in that.


    It has needed to clean it's act up a long long time ago but it didn't. They have a duty and obligation to protect the clean cyclists (assuming they want a clean sport) and break the omerta so where was the protection for the cyclists who spoke up about doping and were then quickly shown the door? Those are the victims here, and your brother and UCI had a large part to play in ensuring they were victims, and continued to be victims. These riders had a vested interest in the sport but they saw what was going on and wanted it to stop. I'm sure there are plenty of quotes that can show how the UCI felt about these riders?

    Given the UCI's actions do you not think it right that it be held accountable for it's failures?

    On another note, why did the UCI feel the need to try take control of the investigation into Lance? Should they not be doing everything they can to expose the cheaters and be encouraging WADA, USADA etc to continue the good fight?

    As for Paul being unemployed, I have no idea of the circumstance, but all newspapers are suffering at present due to the move to online news sites, I'm sure there are many good journalist that are currently not getting as much work as they would like. You mention that other journalists are now running for the high ground after staying quiet to get access to cyclists before, well does that not show that by speaking out as Paul and David have for so long, that they were willing to take a financial hit and not get the stories because they were trying to tell the truth?

    Clearly at this point we don't just have Lance's word for it, there is evidence and plenty of it, it seems!


  • Options
    #167
    Sundy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭Sundy


    Q
    Originally Posted by AnnH64

    Only when Paul Kimmage retired from racing, and no longer had a vested financial interest in keeping quiet about it, did he write his book about the sport being rife with drugs!! Where is the integrity in that? Since he bore his soul, he has seemed intent on pinning the responsibility for his poor moral choice on the shoulders of others, be they Pat McQuaid, Hein Verbruggen, the UCI in general or Lance Armstrong to name but a few of his targets. Is Paul Kimmage resentful that Pat McQuaid didn't have the weakness of character Paul demonstrated by taking drugs and turning a blind eye to the immorality of what he was making a living at.

    It's easy for him to pull cycling's house down - he doesn't stand to lose out financially from that any more.

    Its ironic that you point out the main reason that people fell that the UCI dont want the truth to come out. The stand to lose out financially.

    Its usually people with nothing to lose tell the truth rather than the opposite. Pretty poor way to try smear Kimmage.


  • Options
    #168
    Slo_Rida
    Registered Users Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Slo_Rida


    Paul isn't suing Pat...


  • Options
    #169
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Berksrider wrote: »
    I cheered Tyler and his collarbone to a huge solo win
    TBH I still would in this case, unless he tested positive for huge quantities of morphine. Blood doping or no, that took balls to fight through that level of pain to finish, never mind win. Afterwards he required nearly 20 grand in dental work to repair the back teeth he ground down to the roots fighting the pain.

    I recently bought his ebook "The Secret Race". Well worth a read IMHO. Very believable too. If he is to be believed and personally I do, the drug issue was so well known within the sport from the bottom all the way to the top. You'd have needed gargantuan blinkers on to miss it. Hell fans, even passers by could see it especially in the late 90's. When you saw riders built for the flats driving up mountains at near the speed of previous tours on the flat it was beyond obvious. The European scene was running at speeds 10% more than say the US scene, as many Americans noted when they signed up to European teams.

    Do I blame the riders? Yes and no. Yes they took the decision to dope(more it seems did than didn'), but I also consider that many of these guys were barely in their 20's living on little enough money and the promise of a future, even a bright one so the temptation was/is huge. Would I have said yes to the red pill? At 21, yea TBH, I probably would.

    Most of all I blame the environment, the sponsors, the team directors and trainers and doctors and yes I blame the management of the UCI. They are largely responsible for the environment. After all that's their job

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Options
    #170
    MrCreosote
    Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    Tyler's book is awesome! It's like the twist at the end of the film where things don't seem quite right, and everything is suddenly made clear. 20 years of results suddenly have to be reinterpreted. Transfusions on buses, watchmen posted in hotel corridors, toilets taped up in case of hidden cameras. Fabulous stuff altogether.

    I agree with Wibbs- it's hard to blame the athletes themselves. The UCI are the most culpable- they knew what was happening, at best were too inept to do something constructive to stop it, and at worst actively colluded in covering up positive tests. They are an utter disgrace, and instead of getting their house in order they try to keep the fantasy going by suing the people who tell the truth.


  • Options
    #171
    jinkypolly
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭jinkypolly


    Has AnnH64's original post been deleted, or is my browser acting up?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #172
    Captain Havoc
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Captain Havoc


    jinkypolly wrote: »
    Has AnnH64's original post been deleted, or is my browser acting up?

    Yes it was deleted.

    https://ormondelanguagetours.com

    Walking Tours of Kilkenny in English, French or German.



  • Options
    #173
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    jinkypolly wrote: »
    Has AnnH64's original post been deleted, or is my browser acting up?

    It's still available here.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Options
    #174
    jinkypolly
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭jinkypolly


    Thanks guys, was having trouble logging on last night to read the post.


  • Options
    #175
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Hermy wrote: »
    It's still available here.

    And here on cyclingnews.com


  • Options
    #176
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    I feel sorry for her. Posting your identify in not always a good idea and she's getting a lot of personal attacks here and elsewhere.
    Attack the post and not the poster does seem the right way to approach this.


  • Options
    #177
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Most of all I blame the environment, the sponsors, the team directors and trainers and doctors and yes I blame the management of the UCI. They are largely responsible for the environment. After all that's their job

    Couldn't agree with you more. I've a vested interest but think doctors behaved disgracefully over the last few years.
    Effectively pushed drugs and transfusions as a money making racket with substantial risk to the cyclists.
    I think the likes of Ferrari, Fuentes et al should have been struck off the registers or warned at the very least. Not just the UCI but medical regulation in EU especially does not come out of this well.


  • Options
    #178
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    RobFowl wrote: »
    I feel sorry for her. Posting your identify in not always a good idea and she's getting a lot of personal attacks here and elsewhere. Attack the post and not the poster does seem the right way to approach this.

    It's a nice sentiment, but (a) you're defending the poster and not the post (b) the post you're not defending is full of personal attacks on Kimmage, rather than just the views he's expressed in his writing* (c) your pity makes her look weak.

    * Not to mention the massive irony in "defending" the pursuit of a defamation case using personal attacks.


  • Options
    #179
    fran oconnor
    Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭fran oconnor


    Sundy wrote: »
    Its ironic that you point out the main reason that people fell that the UCI dont want the truth to come out. The stand to lose out financially.

    Its usually people with nothing to lose tell the truth rather than the opposite. Pretty poor way to try smear Kimmage.
    I agree with this, sounds like someone is ranting on behalf of their under presure brother.


  • Options
    #180
    2 Wheels Good
    Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭2 Wheels Good


    At the end of the day, does it matter or affect most of us what happens in Pro cycling, not really. But, it will make us stop watching cycling on TV, going to watch races if they're on, and encouraging the next generation to take up cycling as anything other than a method of getting from A to B. Sponsorship will dry up, people won't buy AnnHs cycling magazines and the world will move on.
    This piece of diving from Liverpools Suarez over the weekend is a good example of another sport that I love that I'm fast losing interest in if this kind of thing isn't stamped out.
    This is more important that the Paul Kimmages and Pat McQuaids of the world, Paul Kimmage is aware of this, I don't think the UCI is, and they need to wake up to that!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #181
    el tel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,991 ✭✭✭el tel


    Anyone reckon Paul Kimmage has ever had a read boards.ie or this thread?
    Better still, does anyone know him (I assume he lives in Ireland still)?

    <snip>


Advertisement