Meat is murder, tasty, tasty murder . . .

Cú Giobach · 26-02-2012 5:11pm

grindle wrote: »

I never said anything like that...? There are TONS of AMAAAAAAAAAAZING vegetarian dishes. I've happily eaten three courses in a veggy restaurant without whinging in that stereotypical meat-eater way that you presume I do (the "doesn't-feel-like-a-meal-without-meat-brigade").
Depriving yourself of more deliciousness though... Seems a pity.

Imagining a life without bacon frightens me a bit. What food'd make my mouth and stomach horny?

Sorry

The words fake bacon set me off.

El_Dangeroso · 26-02-2012 6:41pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

What part of that do you have difficulty understanding?

The part where it's anyway grounded in reality. Seriously get a clue.

44leto wrote: »

But compared to the same calories and nutrient value for the world environment the vegetarian option in better in orders of magnitude.

No it would not at all, do you think the farmers who cut down swathes of the amazon will just give up that land and stop growing grain on it? Or do you think it would cause a fall in grain prices and an increase in population followed by more rainforest cutting down to feed diminishing profits, to think otherwise is to not understand basic economics. Seriously, the naivite of these opinions is just worrying.

Also you are thinking that there is one global solution when that was what got us into this mess in the first place, the best way to go about it is local solutions that suit the local economy and climate. In Ireland most there is a lot of land that sheep and cattle can graze on that cannot be used to grow crops. People forget that livestock provide a valuable role in a sustainable farming eco-system, the only way to fertilise crops is through manure or petrochemicals.

Being vegetarian in Ireland for the sake of the environment is an deluded notion if you consume imported crops as a big portion of your diet.

dee. · 26-02-2012 6:49pm

I'm a vegetarian but never really enjoyed meat (red meat, mince especially, used to make me sick as a child) so I don't feel like i'm missing out. its mostly a pain when you go out to eat and the only vegetarian option is something you hate - which seems to be common for me because I despise mushrooms! I don't really care if other people eat meat or not, obviously in an ideal world i'd make everyone vegetarians but its a choice and people have different preferences and interests.

I have to agree with whoever said the fake meat options taste horrible. I eat them sometimes (maybe once every 2-3 weeks) and have gotten used to the taste now, although I prefer to use them in curries, spicy dishes,etc. so the flavour overpowers the taste of cardboard. The quorn fake ham is the only meat alternative I enjoy but have found that eating it too often..it begins to taste how I imagine dog food does!

lividduck · 26-02-2012 7:51pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Meat is only tasty when processed. Non meat products can be processed to taste the same.

Bollix.
a ribeye steak, blue....totally unprocessed ....absolutley delicious

44leto · 26-02-2012 8:24pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

The part where it's anyway grounded in reality. Seriously get a clue.

No it would not at all, do you think the farmers who cut down swathes of the amazon will just give up that land and stop growing grain on it? Or do you think it would cause a fall in grain prices and an increase in population followed by more rainforest cutting down to feed diminishing profits, to think otherwise is to not understand basic economics. Seriously, the naivite of these opinions is just worrying.

Also you are thinking that there is one global solution when that was what got us into this mess in the first place, the best way to go about it is local solutions that suit the local economy and climate. In Ireland most there is a lot of land that sheep and cattle can graze on that cannot be used to grow crops. People forget that livestock provide a valuable role in a sustainable farming eco-system, the only way to fertilise crops is through manure or petrochemicals.

Being vegetarian in Ireland for the sake of the environment is an deluded notion if you consume imported crops as a big portion of your diet.

You don't really know what you are talking about, first to spite the Amazon being a very rich area of vegetation the soil is very poor. They don't cut the forest down they burn it, then they move the cattle in, after a season the range is exhausted and because it rains a lot (a rain forest) so is the soil, so you could never grow grain on that land. Then they burn another section releasing that carbon and move the herds on. And so that will continue till the amazon turns into a desert.

But I will admit Brazilian beef is gorgeous IMO much better then our beef. Brazil are getting rich on the back of it, but among other things.
So if you think this planet is better off without the Amazonian rainforest, then think so. I couldn't be arsed saying why it wouldn't.

El_Dangeroso · 26-02-2012 9:13pm

44leto wrote: »

You don't really know what you are talking about, first to spite the Amazon being a very rich area of vegetation the soil is very poor. They don't cut the forest down they burn it, then they move the cattle in, after a season the range is exhausted and because it rains a lot (a rain forest) so is the soil, so you could never grow grain on that land. Then they burn another section releasing that carbon and move the herds on. And so that will continue till the amazon turns into a desert.

I was flippant in my use of the word amazon, I was referring to the 'ZOMG you guyys if everyone turned veggie we could feed the world!!11!' type reasoning, no we couldn't because there is enough food for everyone right now.

And my point stands, even if a huge amount of the western world turned vegetarian, it would not save one single tree in the rainforest.

44leto wrote: »

But I will admit Brazilian beef is gorgeous IMO much better then our beef. Brazil are getting rich on the back of it, but among other things.
So if you think this planet is better off without the Amazonian rainforest, then think so. I couldn't be arsed saying why it wouldn't.

We that's something I take offence at, Irish beef is way better than Brazilian beef and you need your taste-buds examined if you disagree. :pac:

When did I say I didn't care about the rainforest? Quit straw-manning my argument.

Keela11 · 26-02-2012 9:37pm

Personally I believe anybody in the western world who eats meat is selfish and stupid. I have taken information on every side on board and after a year of not eating meat I can't fathom why I ever did (apart from my parents forcing me too).

This is quite a good short film (30 min.) on Veganism, but like all of these sort of things it is should be obvious that it is propaganda of a sort and should be taken with a pinch of salt at times.

http://vimeo.com/15849273

Gummy Panda · 26-02-2012 9:58pm

Keela11 wrote: »

Personally I believe anybody in the western world who eats meat is selfish and stupid.

oh.. fúck off!!

TheZohanS · 26-02-2012 10:18pm

Keela11 wrote: »

This is quite a good short film (30 min.) on Veganism, but like all of these sort of things it is should be obvious that it is propaganda of a sort and should be taken with a pinch of salt at times.

http://vimeo.com/15849273

A bit like a good steak in that regards.

Meat is lovely, if I had the time I'd have steak for breakfast too....moooooo!!

Didn't watch that moovie you linked either, was afraid it might be a virus.

galwayrush · 26-02-2012 10:46pm

I convinced one of my kids friends who was a vegetarian that it was ok to eat beef because cows didn't eat meat themselves. She ate the dinner...Am i evil?:pac:

Paparazzo · 26-02-2012 10:59pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Meat is only tasty when processed. Non meat products can be processed to taste the same.

You're living up to your user name with that post! Processed meat is the nicest???

Maudi · 26-02-2012 11:01pm

Kiera wrote: »

I’d love a bit of meat in me.

funny

Owen_S · 26-02-2012 11:07pm

Can any vegetarians explain why they are vegetarians, but not vegans?

Aodan83 · 26-02-2012 11:18pm

Keela11 wrote: »

Personally I believe anybody in the western world who eats meat is selfish and stupid.

Keela11 · 26-02-2012 11:24pm

Owen_S wrote: »

Can any vegetarians explain why they are vegetarians, but not vegans?

Depends on the person, really. Some people don't know or don't believe the cruelty in the animal agriculture industry, some think it's too extreme of a diet (sort of how I feel but I'm trying to change), some just think that they're doing enough just being vegetarian. Some people aren't vegetarians for animal welfare so may not see the need.

Icepick · 26-02-2012 11:25pm

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Isn't it great being top of the food chain

That's bacteria.

ItsAWindUp · 26-02-2012 11:39pm

I love being vegetarian, best thing I ever did:)

nua domhan · 27-02-2012 12:20am

When i grow up, i'm going to Bovine University!

Mr.Biscuits · 27-02-2012 12:56am

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

The beef industry lobby is NOTHING compared to the soy industry lobby (Monsanto, hello?)

Hello.

I never said that Beef Industry councils were not as bad Monsanto (I believe they are) but I merely pointing out that your: 'omnivores have no advocacy, lobby groups and propaganda machines' statement was a bogus and nonsensical one.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

.. and again the beef industry lobby is not an advocacy group for omnivores, just beef processors.

No, they are worse - as they act purely from a commercial point of view but at the end of the day they are a powerful force and voice for those that consume animal based products.

They have so much influence of Governments around the world and pretty much creaeted what we have come to know as the Food Pyramid.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

These two posts display the ignorance propagated by vegetarian groups that all people are either vegetarians or they eat nothing but industrial junk-food.

Look, I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion from my post but I think based on the content of your own posts, you should ease up with throwing around worlds like 'ignorance'.

By they way, I eat meat - lots of it.

ScumLord · 27-02-2012 1:27am

TheZohan wrote: »

Didn't watch that moovie you linked either, was afraid it might be a virus.

I watched a bit of it, it was like watching Tom Cruise talk about Scientology. Vegan cooks are better because they care more and vegans are in general better than mere mortals in every conceivable way.

RussellTuring · 27-02-2012 3:49am

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I'm not interested in 'neccesary'. Humans are an adaptable species and can survive on a wide variety of foods, but I'm not interested in just surviving either. I'm interested in eating the optimal diet for the human animal, i.e. as close as possible to what we've been eating for 100,000 + years, not evolutionarily novel diets like western diet (with lots of grains) or veganism or vegetarianism. It's not possible to get it exactly like what a 'caveman' would have eaten, but you can get close (BTW we've been cooking food for around 150,000 years).

I'm still waiting for you to show how an optimal diet can only be achieved by eating meat as you stated. The only reason I can see for you holding this belief is your foregone conclusion that meat is necessary for optimal health, and that's just circular logic. I also couldn't help but notice your implication that because we've been eating meat for so long then it must therefore be a good thing. I hope I don't have to list off the various things humans do that are harmful to ourselves, each other and the world.

(I don't think anthropogenic climate change is far-fetched, I just don't think it has been proven.)

As El Dangeroso said, we could go back and forth with studies refuting each others statements but I don't think there is a point. I have never been as fit, healthy or energetic since I started eating a paleo diet and that is a good enough reason for me.

Well since yours is probably the most "evolutionarily novel" diet mentioned in the thread and you admit it isn't really possible to eat exactly as you may have in another age, maybe you feel so good because you pay more attention to what you eat than most people do, just as you said of vegetarians. In other words, you assume you feel good because of the meat without being able to state exactly why, whereas it's most likely the same feeling people get when they become more mindful of what they eat.

It reminds me of my friend who became more interested in what he was eating after we became housemates. My love of food and cooking influenced him to stop eating as much rubbish as he had before and to cook more, with better-quality food. He didn't stop eating meat but he said that he felt far healthier thanks to me.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

The fact that certain nutrient deficiencies are more common in vegetarians leads me to think that on average, most vegetarians are not meeting those needs.
.

Would certain other deficiencies being more common in meat-eaters, along with the obesity, heart disease etc likewise convince you that most of them aren't meeting their needs?

grindle wrote: »

True. I am one of those carnivores. I've saved two friends from vegetarianism. That makes it all worth it.
And it's logically impossible to either understand or respect the choice of vegetarianism. It's an irrational choice, and I respect their right to make the choice, but you don't have to respect the choice itself.
Same if somebody ate everything but rice. They can choose that, but it's an irrational choice, which you'd hardly look at, stand back, and go "That guy's really stickin' to his guns about rice. I respect his distaste for the grain."

Do you think the animals you eat are no more conscious than rice?

grindle · 27-02-2012 9:16am

RussellTuring wrote: »

Do you think the animals you eat are no more conscious than rice?

I wouldn't eat one that raw. Squirming'd put me off. Dead though...

El_Dangeroso · 27-02-2012 6:35pm

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

I never said that Beef Industry councils were not as bad Monsanto (I believe they are) but I merely pointing out that your: 'omnivores have no advocacy, lobby groups and propaganda machines' statement was a bogus and nonsensical one.

What you are saying is totally nonsensical. You really need to go and look up the definition of advocacy group and then tell me why a beef industry lobby group is an advocate for omnivores but a soy industry lobby group is not an advocate for vegetarians.

Mr.Biscuits · 27-02-2012 7:53pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

What you are saying is totally nonsensical. You really need to go and look up the definition of advocacy group and then tell me why a beef industry lobby group is an advocate for omnivores but a soy industry lobby group is not an advocate for vegetarians.

Will you quit putting words in my mouth please.

When and where did I say anything about a soy industry lobby group not being an advocate for vegetarians??

I actually said I agreed with your point in that regard.

El_Dangeroso · 27-02-2012 7:55pm

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

Will you quit putting words in my mouth please.

When and where did I say anything about a soy industry lobby group not being an advocate for vegetarians?? I actually said I agreed with that point.

It's the same thing as saying the beef industry lobby is a omnivore advocacy group.

Mr.Biscuits · 28-02-2012 2:56am

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

It's the same thing as saying the beef industry lobby is a omnivore advocacy group.

No it's NOT the "same thing" - how could it be?

I never said (nor implied) that Monsanto were not an advocacy group for vegetarians, nor anything close to it - so quit implying that I did.

My point, which you seeme to have missed in your determination to put words in my mouth is that meat eaters do have "propaganda machines" and "advocacy groups" on "their side".

If you want to agrue about Monsanto and Soy industry lobby groups - grand, just go and do it with people that have stuck up for them, I didn't.

blatantrereg · 28-02-2012 2:36pm

I've never heard anyone defend Monsanto. Most tofu I see in the shops is organic. Maybe GM soy milk is more popular, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was no significant market for Monsanto soy here at all.

The majority of vegetarians think PETA does more to undermine their beliefs than to propagate them too.

There are many compelling reasons not to eat meat. There's no reason to eat meat other than indulgence. Not eating meat is the rational and ethical choice.

I dont think that eating meat means someone is stupid or bad or anything like that. It is a stupid and bad thing to do, but it's also the societal norm. There's an awful lot of misinformation and prejudices out there. Even George Orwell was hostile towards vegetarians, suggesting they're passive and namby-pamby. [Redirected self-loathing for being a closet homosexual from a privileged class himself I reckon...but I'm going on a tangent now]... I would tend to think well of someone who doesn't eat it though.

Rabidlamb · 28-02-2012 4:09pm

Had a homemade burger last night ..... homer droooooool
Even knowing that most of it was probably cartilage & grizzle didn't take from the enjoyment.
What hope do the vegetarian lobby have when even the bad bits taste so good.
Probably too weak to lift their skinny fingers & type.

blatantrereg · 28-02-2012 4:16pm

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Had a homemade burger last night ..... homer droooooool
Even knowing that most of it was probably cartilage & grizzle didn't take from the enjoyment.
What hope do the vegetarian lobby have when even the bad bits taste so good.
Probably too weak to lift their skinny fingers & type.

I'm aware of the tongue-in-cheek nature of that post, but you've touched on a common misconception there. Strength training is very viable on a vegetarian diet. Christian Bale was a vegetarian when he appeared in American Psycho, to give a fairly well known example.

El_Dangeroso · 28-02-2012 6:44pm

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

No it's NOT the "same thing" - how could it be?

I never said (nor implied) that Monsanto were not an advocacy group for vegetarians, nor anything close to it - so quit implying that I did.

My point, which you seeme to have missed in your determination to put words in my mouth is that meat eaters do have "propaganda machines" and "advocacy groups" on "their side".

If you want to agrue about Monsanto and Soy industry lobby groups - grand, just go and do it with people that have stuck up for them, I didn't.

Jeez, you really don't get it. I am saying that the beef lobby industry is no more a 'propaganda machine' as you call it for meat eaters than Monsanto is a 'propaganda machine' for vegans, it's an analogy like.

Just because you eat something a company makes does not make them an advocate for your beliefs, how hard is that to understand?

blatantrereg · 28-02-2012 7:09pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Jeez, you really don't get it. I am saying that the beef lobby industry is no more a 'propaganda machine' as you call it for meat eaters than Monsanto is a 'propaganda machine' for vegans, it's an analogy like.

Just because you eat something a company makes does not make them an advocate for your beliefs, how hard is that to understand?

You didn't say that though. Not until this very post. In fact you suggested that vegans benefit from organisations such as Monsanto, PETA and the ALF [which I dont think is the case at all].

If that really was what you meant to say - that the beef industry is no more a propaganda machine for meat eaters than Monsanto is for vegans - well you should look at your own ways of expressing things. Because it really didnt come across from any of your previous posts.

Sonic the Large Cock · 28-02-2012 7:12pm

man this thread is making me hungry, i could murder a murdered burger right about now

El_Dangeroso · 28-02-2012 7:21pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

You didn't say that though. Not until this very post. In fact you suggested that vegans benefit from organisations such as Monsanto, PETA and the ALF [which I dont think is the case at all].

If that really was what you meant to say - that the beef industry is no more a propaganda machine for meat eaters than Monsanto is for vegans - well you should look at your own ways of expressing things. Because it really didnt come across from any of your previous posts.

Really what can I say, I don't think there's a face-palm big enough to respond to this.

blatantrereg · 28-02-2012 7:25pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Really what can I say, I don't think there's a face-palm big enough to respond to this.

Why?

ItsAWindUp · 28-02-2012 7:33pm

Fantastic piece of film http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthlings_(film)

I'd like to, if I may, quote the poster Stressica who discussed it in the Vegan & Vegetarian forum : "It changed my and my families life for good, now vegans we refuse to take part in the attrocities that go on in front of our eye yet many people chose to ignore. Its one of the best films ever made and if you really care about animals and want to make a difference and understand what really goes on, I'd recommend viewing.

it is however very graphic but its the truth and its what happens everyday, to billions of animals kept in filthy conditions for human greed.

Don't just bury your head in the sand and ignore it because you don't like it."

Would reccomend that everyone watch it

Gummy Panda · 28-02-2012 7:43pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

it is however very graphic but its the truth and its what happens everyday, to billions of animals kept in filthy conditions for human greed.

Yeah factory farming in US.

ItsAWindUp · 28-02-2012 7:45pm

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Yeah factory farming in US.

So what, you think its massively different over here?

Gummy Panda · 28-02-2012 7:46pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Yeah factory farming in US.

So what, you think its massively different over here?

Yeah I do.

ItsAWindUp · 28-02-2012 7:48pm

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Yeah I do.

You keep your head in the sand then pal

Rabidlamb · 28-02-2012 8:15pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

So what, you think its massively different over here?

Of course it is, Daisy has long days looking at Irish Sunsets, gets to have loads of kids which are taken away before they annoy her, gets her udders emptied twice a day & all the grass she can eat, where do I sign up.

ItsAWindUp · 29-02-2012 10:39am

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Of course it is, Daisy has long days looking at Irish Sunsets, gets to have loads of kids which are taken away before they annoy her, gets her udders emptied twice a day & all the grass she can eat, where do I sign up.

Do you actually believe this?

rich.d.berry · 29-02-2012 11:12am

Veganism and vegetarianism appear to be moving in a religious direction:

The same fervour to reform and convert.
The same intolerance to other beliefs and lifestyles.
The same air of superiority.

You should all get together and start a church. I'm lead to believe that there is a lot of money to be made that way.

Rabidlamb · 29-02-2012 11:20am

rich.d.berry wrote: »

Veganism and vegetarianism appear to be moving in a religious direction:
The same fervour to reform and convert.

The same intolerance to other beliefs and lifestyles.

The same air of superiority.

You should all get together and start a church. I'm lead to believe that there is a lot of money to be made that way.

The greens are at it aswell, all competing for that Jesus void.
I've filled mine with couch time & golf.

ItsAWindUp · 29-02-2012 11:23am

rich.d.berry wrote: »

Veganism and vegetarianism appear to be moving in a religious direction:
The same fervour to reform and convert.

The same intolerance to other beliefs and lifestyles.

The same air of superiority.

You should all get together and start a church. I'm lead to believe that there is a lot of money to be made that way.

If you truly believe that you clearly know nothing about it

blatantrereg · 29-02-2012 11:48am

rich.d.berry wrote: »

Veganism and vegetarianism appear to be moving in a religious direction:
The same fervour to reform and convert.

The same intolerance to other beliefs and lifestyles.

The same air of superiority.

You should all get together and start a church. I'm lead to believe that there is a lot of money to be made that way.

You're describing the attitude of a lot of meat eaters towards vegetarians. This thread is a good example of it. In fact, your post conveys contempt for vegetarians and vegetarianism - exactly the attitude you are accusing them of.

Most of the time when vegetarians describe their views to meat eaters, it's in a discussion initiated by the meat eaters - like in this thread. It's more common for meat eaters to vocalise some weird issue with vegetarians than it is for vegetarians to push their beliefs on others.

rich.d.berry · 29-02-2012 11:59am

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

If you truly believe that you clearly know nothing about it

blatantrereg wrote: »

You're describing the attitude of a lot of meat eaters towards vegetarians. This thread is a good example of it. In fact, your post conveys contempt for vegetarians and vegetarianism - exactly the attitude you are accusing them of.

Most of the time when vegetarians describe their views to meat eaters, it's in a discussion initiated by the meat eaters - like in this thread. It's more common for meat eaters to vocalise some weird issue with vegetarians than it is for vegetarians to push their beliefs on others.

What about people like DurianRider then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KondNJGLE10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3r2HzcYus

ItsAWindUp · 29-02-2012 12:01pm

rich.d.berry wrote: »

What about people like DurianRider then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KondNJGLE10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3r2HzcYus

What about it?

blatantrereg · 29-02-2012 12:16pm

rich.d.berry wrote: »

What about people like DurianRider then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KondNJGLE10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3r2HzcYus

Never heard of him before. Watched the first vid you linked. I see no evidence of any of the traits you listed (which you ascribed to all vegetarians).

He comes across really well. He's not telling people off for eating meat. He's addressing a common preconception by demonstrating how physically fit he is after having been on a vegan diet for ten years. He's taking the opportunity to provide other information, regarding the link between animal foods and cancer.

That link with cancer is proven incidentally [outside the EU it is even more significant - the EU places restrictions on treating animals with growth hormones]. Have a look at the the rates of certain cancers between countries with high consumption of meat and dairy, and countries with low consumption of meat and dairy. There is a huge difference.

Anyway, really if you think he comes across in some sort of objectionable way in that video, then it's you demonstrating an intolerant attitude tbh.

rich.d.berry · 29-02-2012 12:18pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

What about it?

You should appoint him Pope, Primate, Chief Evangelist, or some such title, for the vegan cause.

PS. Why did you have to quote the links to the videos as well? Was watching that crap once not enough for you?

rich.d.berry · 29-02-2012 12:21pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

Never heard of him before. Watched the first vid you linked. I see no evidence of any of the traits you listed (which you ascribed to all vegetarians).

He comes across really well. He's not telling people off for eating meat. He's addressing a common preconception by demonstrating how physically fit he is after having been on a vegan diet for ten years. He's taking the opportunity to provide other information, regarding the link between animal foods and cancer.

That link with cancer is proven incidentally [outside the EU it is even more significant - the EU places restrictions on treating animals with growth hormones]. Have a look at the the rates of certain cancers between countries with high consumption of meat and dairy, and countries with low consumption of meat and dairy. There is a huge difference.

Anyway, really if you think he comes across in some sort of objectionable way in that video, then it's you demonstrating an intolerant attitude tbh.

What's the point of re-posting the videos when you quote someone FFS?

He is admitting to preaching to the unconverted in the first one and then in the second he is spouting crap about sebaceous cysts being caused by diet and posting the most disgusting footage he could find.

Feel free to search his YouTube channel for loads more of the same.

Meat is murder, tasty, tasty murder . . .

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