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Accident in Phoenix Park this morning

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135

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    #62
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    diarmuid79 wrote: »
    He told me to fock off and that you can cycle any direction on a cycle lane.
    What do ya think ???

    I think you can in the phoenix park but etiquette would be to stick to the left hand side. I always cycle in the direction I'd be in if I were on the road in the park. Apart from it being good manners for other cyclists, if you have to join the road for any reason there's no problem.
    BostonB wrote: »
    I don't think the cycle lanes in the park have any legal status. As such there isn't any compulsory direction implied.

    [QUOTE=Tombo2000;76488343
    Have never once seen a dog owner told to put a lead on a dog.[/QUOTE]
    Tombo2000 wrote: »
    All dogs that have not been formally trained are supposed to be on a lead at all times in public places.

    Bye laws for the phoenix park and for my city council areas are that dogs must be under control. There are no laws saying dogs must be kept on a lead in the phoenix park. Why would you bring your dog to the park just to keep it on a lead? The whole point is that it gets a bit of freedom.


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    #63
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Tombo2000 wrote: »
    I did check with my local Garda station, maybe you know better though.

    actually, it means you have control over your dog. that if you tell your dog to come to heel straight away then the dog does it. to my mind that means formally trained.

    Ah, that's a big difference. Dogs just need to be under control, there's no requirement they should be on a lead, nor is there any that they need to be formally trained, which as you admitted is just your opinion, not the law. A well controlled dog does not need to have been formally trained. As RacoonQueen says, why bring your dog to a fantastic place like the park to keep them on a lead and not allow them off the footpath.


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    #64
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Ah, that's a big difference. Dogs just need to be under control, there's no requirement they should be on a lead, nor is there any that they need to be formally trained, which as you admitted is just your opinion, not the law. A well controlled dog does not need to have been formally trained.

    Only dogs classed as restricted breeds are required to be on a lead in a public place (and muzzled). Under control is how you interpret it above, under control not necessarily on a lead.


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    #65
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    To be fair, in the vast majority of parks in Dublin, dogs must be kept on a lead, and in the Phoenix Park they must be kept on a lead in the gardens.

    Not that most dog owners take any notice.


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    #66
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    FENTON!!!


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    #67
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Tombo2000 wrote: »
    How do you mean? That they are basically not cycle lanes....that pedestrians are perfectly entitled to be there?

    Pretty much, yes.


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    #68
    Bunnyhopper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Bunnyhopper


    BostonB wrote: »
    If being used for that purpose or transport to and from. I think.

    I was going by this:
    S.I. No. 190/1963:
    ROAD TRAFFIC (CONSTRUCTION, EQUIPMENT AND USE OF VEHICLES) REGULATIONS, 1963.

    PART VIII. MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS.
    Pedal cycles.
    93. (1) Every pedal cycle (other than a cycle constructed or adapted for use as a racing cycle) while used in a public place shall be fitted with an audible warning device consisting of a bell capable of being heard at a reasonable distance, and no other type of audible warning instrument shall be fitted to a pedal cycle while used in a public place.

    It doesn't mention anything about being used for that purpose or transport to and from. IANAL, but I'd read it to mean that a bike's being constructed for use as a racing cycle suffices, regardless of whether it's actually ever used for that. Of course, there may be subsequent amendments or case law saying otherwise. (Anyone?)
    BostonB wrote: »
    Not that it matters, many have headphones on, using a mobile, or talking to friends. Some just can't walk straight. So you have slow down and take care passing them.

    True - there's no accounting for eejits, right? :) I guess it matters if a guard tells you off for having no bell on your Dogma. Besides it's un-Euro and that would take precedence.


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    #69
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BostonB wrote: »
    The park isn't a normal public road. its in effect a private park. So we had this discussion before and the conclusion was they aren't really cycle lanes in the legal sense. They may not even be exclusive to cyclists.

    There's questions over the cycle lanes, but re status of the roads...

    http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/Phoenix%20Park%20Conservation%20Management%20Plan%20Final%208%209%2011.pdf

    "The Phoenix Park is also a public place within the meaning of the Road Traffic Acts. As such, An Garda Siochána has a key role in enforcing traffic regulations and in the preservation of order within the Park."


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    #70
    Tombo2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Tombo2000


    BostonB wrote: »


    So you nearly cycled into something that you could see clearly in front of you. Pedestrians are unpredictable. You give them a wide berth and slow down around them.

    Yep.....thats pretty much what happened.....if I hadnt slowed down in advance of her jumping out in front of me, there would have been a dangerous collision for both of us.

    Cycle lanes are not wide enough to give a pedestrin a wide berth, the widest berth you could give is a foot and a half.


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    #71
    Tombo2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Tombo2000


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Ah, that's a big difference. Dogs just need to be under control, there's no requirement they should be on a lead, nor is there any that they need to be formally trained, which as you admitted is just your opinion, not the law. A well controlled dog does not need to have been formally trained. As RacoonQueen says, why bring your dog to a fantastic place like the park to keep them on a lead and not allow them off the footpath.


    The law states that a dog must be either under control, or on a lead. Under control means that the dog immediately obeys the commands of its owner.

    In my view, a dog needs proper training for this. obviously in theory this is open to interpretation. but in practice, many dog owners do not have this level of control on their dogs.


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    #72
    MajorMax
    Registered Users Posts: 865 ✭✭✭MajorMax


    And don't start with the dogs on leads nonsense, there's no requirement that they need to be.

    Phoenix park bye-laws
    http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/

    13. Any person that enters the Park with a dog shall have the dog under control;


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    #73
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Tombo2000 wrote: »
    Yep.....thats pretty much what happened.....if I hadnt slowed down in advance of her jumping out in front of me, there would have been a dangerous collision for both of us.

    Cycle lanes are not wide enough to give a pedestrin a wide berth, the widest berth you could give is a foot and a half.


    If you are going slow enough its a non issue.


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    #74
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    monument wrote: »
    There's questions over the cycle lanes, but re status of the roads...

    http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/Phoenix%20Park%20Conservation%20Management%20Plan%20Final%208%209%2011.pdf

    "The Phoenix Park is also a public place within the meaning of the Road Traffic Acts. As such, An Garda Siochána has a key role in enforcing traffic regulations and in the preservation of order within the Park."

    We talked about this before in 2007. Best answer for the cycle lanes in the park I found was this..,

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54230117&postcount=51

    and

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54348850&postcount=83


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    #75
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,746 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Bunnyhopper wrote: »
    It doesn't mention anything about being used for that purpose or transport to and from. IANAL, but I'd read it to mean that a bike's being constructed for use as a racing cycle suffices, regardless of whether it's actually ever used for that. Of course, there may be subsequent amendments or case law saying otherwise. (Anyone?)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76222722&postcount=61
    93. (1) Every pedal cycle (other than a cycle constructed or adapted for use as a racing cycle) while used in a public place shall be fitted with an audible warning device consisting of a bell capable of being heard at a reasonable distance, and no other type of audible warning instrument shall be fitted to a pedal cycle while used in a public place.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/si/0190.html

    The "travelling to or from" bit is in the lights section. I don't know whether by implication it applies also to the bell rule.
    Defence in case of racing vehicles.

    53. Where a person is charged with a contravention in the day time of articles 9, 22, 29 and 33 of these Regulations, it shall be a good defence to show that the vehicle was primarily constructed or adapted for the purpose of racing or trials and was either being used for such purpose or was travelling to or from the venue of a race or trial in which the vehicle had taken part or was intended to take part.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/si/0189.html#zzsi189y1963a9

    I really think this is essentially a dead letter law, but I suppose you might get done for it if they really want to get you and can't find anything else.


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    #76
    Tombo2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Tombo2000


    BostonB wrote: »
    If you are going slow enough its a non issue.


    well I dont know how slow you mean here.

    I am cycling on the RHS of cycle path.

    Girl is walk in same direction as me, on LHS of cycle path.

    Girl is wearing IPOD with headphone one.

    Girl drops her ipod, it drops on to RHS of cycle path.

    Girl steps over to pick it up about 5 feet in front of me (that was the distance, not exaggerating).

    How slow do I need to be going, for this to be a non-issue? How slow do I need to be going, such that if someone steps out five feet in front of me I can still have time to gracefully cycle around them......

    At that pace there is no point being on the cycle path, given the amount of pedestrians.


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    #77
    biomed32
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭biomed32


    I will start off by saying that for a long time I cycled in the cycle lane in the phoenix park due to the state of the road, particularly after the snow of last year. What can I say, it takes an American president and an English queen to make the council to lay a new road that has been desperately needed for some time. I have not been in Dublin for a while let alone down by the park which was a frequent haunt for me on the bike either for a cycle down by the magazine fort of coffee and cake at the zoo on a training cycle from the Galway Cycle. The last training cycle I ended up cycling on the road while the cyclists made it to the cycle lane due to bad timing on my part. In the couple hundred meters that I cycled on the road, I was beeped at and hollered at by a driver even though I was perfectly in my right to cycle where I was and I had left plenty of room ( I tend to cycle fairly close to the kerb or line of cars as was the case here).
    As a result I understand the desire of a cyclist to cycle on a cycle lane, a designated one (we can argue this all day to be honest) but for all intents and purposes, the path is clearly labeled as a cycle lane and should be used as such. I think it is up to the County Council to clearly label it better if necessary ( I think its fairly well labeled at present) and if necessary have the park rangers enforce it, it is their area to patrol either way, particularly if the guards cannot police it satisfactorily.
    It doesn't surprise me that the incident occurred and pretty sure it isn't the first or the last, it will happen again. It boils down to the same old issue. respect for each other. Pedestrians, drivers and of course cyclists. Until this happens, the same issue of who blames who will continue in the endless cyclical pattern that it does and the woes will end up on boards in some form or other.


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    #78
    Tombo2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Tombo2000


    Re the legal status of cycle lanes in the PP...

    Next time Leo Varadkar claims there are XX kilometres of cycle lane in the phoenix park....can one say, no Leo, there is no cycle lane in the phoenix park......only a footpath with pictures of bikes on it.


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    #79
    Tombo2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Tombo2000


    biomed32 wrote: »
    I will start off by saying that for a long time I cycled in the cycle lane in the phoenix park due to the state of the road, particularly after the snow of last year. What can I say, it takes an American president and an English queen to make the council to lay a new road that has been desperately needed for some time. I have not been in Dublin for a while let alone down by the park which was a frequent haunt for me on the bike either for a cycle down by the magazine fort of coffee and cake at the zoo on a training cycle from the Galway Cycle. The last training cycle I ended up cycling on the road while the cyclists made it to the cycle lane due to bad timing on my part. In the couple hundred meters that I cycled on the road, I was beeped at and hollered at by a driver even though I was perfectly in my right to cycle where I was and I had left plenty of room ( I tend to cycle fairly close to the kerb or line of cars as was the case here).
    As a result I understand the desire of a cyclist to cycle on a cycle lane, a designated one (we can argue this all day to be honest) but for all intents and purposes, the path is clearly labeled as a cycle lane and should be used as such. I think it is up to the County Council to clearly label it better if necessary ( I think its fairly well labeled at present) and if necessary have the park rangers enforce it, it is their area to patrol either way, particularly if the guards cannot police it satisfactorily.
    It doesn't surprise me that the incident occurred and pretty sure it isn't the first or the last, it will happen again. It boils down to the same old issue. respect for each other. Pedestrians, drivers and of course cyclists. Until this happens, the same issue of who blames who will continue in the endless cyclical pattern that it does and the woes will end up on boards in some form or other.

    I agree with you.

    Their seems to be a circular argument on boards and other sites....

    the drivers saying bloody cyclists doing XYZ

    pedestrians saying bloody drivers doing XYZ...

    Cylclist giving out about pedestrians....

    If we dont respect the law in all walks of life then it leads others to do the same, and then everyone's a loser.


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    #80
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,746 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Tombo2000 wrote: »
    At that pace there is no point being on the cycle path, given the amount of pedestrians.

    Rem acu tetigisti, as Jeeves used to say. There is largely no point being on the cycle paths in the Phoenix Park.


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    #81
    Tombo2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Tombo2000


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Rem acu tetigisti, as Jeeves used to say. There is largely no point being on the cycle paths in the Phoenix Park.


    what ho jeeves.

    only point being that its seems there are no cycle paths in the phoenix park; strictly speaking.


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    #82
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Now you're getting it.

    If you want to get full whack, go on the road. TBH you'd be doing that anyway, as getting on off the path's is fairly clunky. That applies pretty much everywhere.


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    #83
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    MajorMax wrote: »
    And don't start with the dogs on leads nonsense, there's no requirement that they need to be.

    Phoenix park bye-laws
    http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/

    13. Any person that enters the Park with a dog shall have the dog under control;

    Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with the bolded statement ?


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    #84
    Consey
    Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭Consey


    You said you don't know what they do ? Well I can answer. Last Summer I was cycling home from work to Castleknock up through the park as usual. It was a nice Summers evening, still bright, and I had just gone past the first roundabout at the Parkgate Street roundabout and was heading up the newer cyle lane adjacent to the road.

    In the middle of the cycle lane was parked a car as per usual (on the double yellow lines). Especially in the evenings cars park there for training.

    I checked and went around the car, keeping well left and went about my way, crossing up onto the cycle lane further in as directed.

    I felt this 'kerb crawler' type driving alon beside me and I looked over and I see a Park Ranger in one of those Prius things. He had his window down and was leaning across the passenger seat (hard not to notice he was rather rotund). He started shouting at me 'You didn't hand-signal when you went around that car there', it took a minute for what he said to sink in then, I said 'sorry, I didn't hear you' and then more aggressively he repeated it.

    When it clicked what he was saying, I replied by going 'are you joking ?' and he repeated again. By then I was starting to get quite irritated by his aggressive attitude so I replied, 'well if you had been doing your job and stopped the car from parking in the middle of the cycle lane I wouldn't have had to go round it'. We argued for a bit, and I re-emphasised ' Why aren't you back putting a notice on the car instead of having a go at me' ? and I must admit it decended into 'do your job, do your job' and him shouting back at me. I'm not proud of that !

    By the time our little altercation finished, I had continued cycling and we were nearly at the Phoenix !!!!!!

    So there, my friends, is an example of what our fine Park Rangers (or at least on of them) get up to !!!!!!


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    #85
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    God I miss the Tuesday nights racing in the Phoenix Park. shocking that they are gone. fast,furious but great racing....


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    #86
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Consey wrote: »
    ...
    In the middle of the cycle lane was parked a car as per usual (on the double yellow lines)....

    I checked and went around the car, keeping well left and went about my way, crossing up onto the cycle lane further in as directed....

    Its debatable if its is legally a cycle lane, and therefore cars maybe allowed to park in it. Obviously the ranger was behind you when you went around the car, and you didn't see them there. Personally I make a point of looking back and glaring at the cars behind when I go around things like that.


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    #87
    rich.d.berry
    Registered Users Posts: 517 ✭✭✭rich.d.berry


    BostonB wrote: »
    Its debatable if its is legally a cycle lane, and therefore cars maybe allowed to park in it.

    Since when is it legal to park on double yellow lines?


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    #88
    Doctor Bob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Doctor Bob


    rich.d.berry wrote: »
    Since when is it legal to park on double yellow lines?

    When loading/unloading, it seems.

    The prohibition:
    Prohibitions on Parking

    36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5, a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose referred to in this article
    (2) A vehicle shall not be parked—
     ( a ) on that side of a section of roadway along the edge of which traffic sign number RRM 008 [double yellow lines] has been provided;
    ...

    The exception:
    Non-application of certain Prohibitions and Restrictions

    5. (1) These Regulations shall apply save where compliance is not possible as a result of an obstruction to traffic or pedestrians or because of an emergency situation confronting a road user which could not reasonably have been expected or anticipated.

     (2) Save where otherwise expressly provided in these Regulations, a prohibition on the entry of a vehicle to a road or an area or the prohibition on the stopping or parking of a vehicle imposed by these Regulations shall not apply to—

     ( a ) a vehicle used in connection with the removal of an obstruction to traffic;
     ( b ) a vehicle being used in connection with the carrying out of roadworks;
     ( c ) a fire brigade, an ambulance, or a vehicle being used by a member of the Garda Síochána in performance of the duties of that member;
     ( d ) a vehicle which has been damaged or has broken down, during the period necessary to effect repairs to the vehicle or remove it from the location;
     ( e ) a prohibition on the parking of a vehicle imposed by article 36(2)(a) shall not apply to a vehicle parked while goods are being loaded in or on to it or unloaded from it, for a period not exceeding thirty minutes from the commencement of the parking.


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html


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    #89
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    rich.d.berry wrote: »
    Since when is it legal to park on double yellow lines?

    Good point. Has anyone ever got a parking ticket in the park? Maybe the double yellow lines are as meaningless as the cycle markings. Though I seem to remember some fuss about people getting tickets for parking outside Garda HQ a few years back. Maybe thats not correct though.


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    #90
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Bar a very few, and a few others at events, you can't load anything in the park given the lack of businesses and ban on commercial vehicles.

    BostonB wrote: »
    Good point. Has anyone ever got a parking ticket in the park? Maybe the double yellow lines are as meaningless as the cycle markings. Though I seem to remember some fuss about people getting tickets for parking outside Garda HQ a few years back. Maybe thats not correct though.

    As I posted already the OPW's official position seems to be that the park is a public place within the meaning of the road traffic acts.


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    #91
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Be that as it may enforcement seems to be non existent. For example I see comercials in it almost daily.


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