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July 16, Stage 14: Saint-Gaudens - Plateau de Beille 168km

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    #122
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    dedon wrote: »
    Explain how he lost 30 mins so? He didn't climb anywhere near as amazing as he is doing now. Stop talking rubbish . He lost 60 mins in 2004 and they can't take a second off him this year. It's absolute madness out there

    You're the one who's talking rubbish, casting aspersions on a rider who is not under suspicion because he's had a few good days? Jeez, GTFO. Remember, he was only 25 in 2004. He's had 7 years of toughening and physical maturing.


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    #123
    mahoo
    Registered Users Posts: 460 ✭✭mahoo


    from article above

    "For comparison's sake, when Lance Armstrong rode up to Luz Ardiden on the way to winning the 2003 Tour (the famous stage with the fall), his time for the final 10km was 27:08, a full 2:02 FASTER than Frank Schleck yesterday (again, thanks to halamala for the numbers). The estimated power output for Armstrong then was 458 W, or 6.4 W/kg

    there is a "limit" to how much power a rider can produce going up a hill. I've given the theoretical argument why this is the case before, and I estimate that around 6 to 6.2W/kg on these long climbs is the ceiling for normal performance."

    interesting stuff


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    #124
    dedon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 761 ✭✭✭dedon


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    You're the one who's talking rubbish, casting aspersions on a rider who is not under suspicion because he's had a few good days? Jeez, GTFO. Remember, he was only 25 in 2004. He's had 7 years of toughening and physical maturing.

    I think you are totally underestimating how tough these climbs are . It is not just the case of having a good day for god sake.

    And the poster above, can you tell me where tommy has been riding with schleks and contador and attacking them in the mountains before over the last two years?? I haven't seen him doing this before. I don't know what you have been watching .


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    #125
    TinyExplosions
    Registered Users Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭TinyExplosions


    dedon wrote: »
    Explain how he lost 30 mins so? He didn't climb anywhere near as amazing as he is doing now. Stop talking rubbish . He lost 60 mins in 2004 and they can't take a second off him this year. It's absolute madness out there

    Hang on a minute here... lets look at 2004 (properly)
    he was the leader after stage 5 by 3min 13 (that had only one climb),
    Stage 6 was flat, so his lead was 3min 1
    Stage 7 had a couple of climbs, and he kept it at 3min 1.
    Stage 8 was lumpy, and he held the lead again at 3min 1.
    Stage 9, his lead was down to 2min 53.
    Stage 10, which had 9 categorised climbs, he was 3 mins up
    Stage 11 had 5 climbs and no change on his 3 mins.
    Stage 12 to La Mongie, he stretched it out to 5min 24,
    Stage 13 to Plateau De Bielle he was down to 22sec.
    Stage 14 that was flat he stuck at 22,
    Stage 15 he cracked and lost 10 minutes after getting dropped

    So he managed to stay with the contenders, and not lose much time over a number of lumpy and high mountain stages, but couldn't keep it up till the end...

    I would think you had somewhat of a point if we were in the Alps and he was still in the lead, but his performance this year is very similar to 2004.

    You can't count any time he lost after he lost the jersey, as people often loose a heap of time either through being shattered, or to enable them to get into breakaways so your daft "He lost 60 mins in 2004" isn't really relavent until we see how it all pans out in Paris.

    I suspect he'll lose a packet come the Alps and will end up with a fairly similar performance to that of 04


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    #126
    dedon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 761 ✭✭✭dedon


    Where did you get those times? He was 30 mins ahead not 3 mins.


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    #127
    AG2R
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭AG2R


    Are you just trying to wum now?


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    #128
    TinyExplosions
    Registered Users Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭TinyExplosions


    dedon wrote: »
    Where did you get those times? He was 30 mins ahead not 3 mins.

    From here. Where are you getting your silly 30mins idea?


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    #129
    dedon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 761 ✭✭✭dedon


    AG2R wrote: »
    Are you just trying to wum now?

    For god sake. We can't have a discussion here without you coming in and accusing me?? Your post is in fact a wum.


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    #130
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Given the sports history people are rightfully entitled to be cynical.

    But if any of the following are doping, then I will castrate myself with a rusty spoon.
    My 1000% clean list is
    Voeckler
    Gilbert
    Chavenel
    Moncoutie

    I have my doubts about almost every other successful cyclist.
    Roche is clean or taking the wrong drugs ;-)


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    #131
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    Well at least a wum knows he's talking rubbish.


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    #132
    mahoo
    Registered Users Posts: 460 ✭✭mahoo


    dedon wrote: »
    I think you are totally underestimating how tough these climbs are . It is not just the case of having a good day for god sake.

    And the poster above, can you tell me where tommy has been riding with schleks and contador and attacking them in the mountains before over the last two years?? I haven't seen him doing this before. I don't know what you have been watching .

    he hasn't had to do this in the last two years.. why would he kill himself in the mountains if he had nothing to gain. he keeps his energy and goes for stage wins normally.. the only time he's been in this situation before was in 2004 and he put in a similar performance as outlined above.. i think you are under estimating the psychological side to sport. all sports have their stories of people overcoming the odds and performing above their norm. its what makes sport interesting. not sure how you can watch cycling if you going to be that cynical about anyone who puts in a big performance.


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    #133
    dedon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 761 ✭✭✭dedon


    TinyExplosions wrote: »
    From here. Where are you getting your silly 30mins idea?

    He won the stage by 30 min was it? My bad. You should be looking at the time between him and Armstrong not to o, Grady


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    #134
    dedon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 761 ✭✭✭dedon


    mahoo wrote: »
    he hasn't had to do this in the last two years.. why would he kill himself in the mountains if he had nothing to gain. he keeps his energy and goes for stage wins normally.. the only time he's been in this situation before was in 2004 and he put in a similar performance as outlined above.. i think you are under estimating the psychological side to sport. all sports have their stories of people overcoming the odds and performing above their norm. its what makes sport interesting. not sure how you can watch cycling if you going to be that cynical about anyone who puts in a big performance.


    Cycling is very differen to other sports as it is just so damn physical. It can hardly be compared to golf. You can't blame me for bring cynical after what we have seen in cycling for years now.

    These mountains are just so hard that thinkin you can keep up just isn't enough. Again you are underestimating them .


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    #135
    kmart6
    Registered Users Posts: 15,172 ✭✭✭✭kmart6


    Nico on twitter:
    Nicholas Roche
    A nightmare! Sorry to all my fans! Had a terrible day


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    #136
    elduggo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    total overreaction here to everything bar the schlecks.

    this race was never going to be decided in the Pyrenees. The contenders have been saying that since the route was announced. Its all about the Alps this year.

    Cadel doesn't have to do anything given the current standings. Contador needs to calculate how much time he thinks he can take back in the TT from both Schlecks (I'd suggest that 2 mins is probably too much - I'd be thinking around 1min 30secs). He can take that in a single mountain stage so needs to time it with how strong hes feeling on any given day.

    Andy could have gone clear today but was clearly holding back for Frank. Lets not forget that Frank crashed out last year. Thats why Andy was a little more minded to go on the attack time and time again. They're seriously setting themselves up for a major fall here, with possibly neither of them even making the podium. It can't be underestimated how bad they are at TTs - Andy looked comparatively well to a seriously below-par Contador in the final TT last year and still came up short.

    Cadel is the man in the driving seat here and I think he knows it. He'll be much wiser for having lost to Sastre when he expected to overhaul him in the TT a few yers back. I can't see him making that mistake again. So long as he stays within a minute or so of the Schlecks I can't see him not overhauling them.

    As for Tommy Voeckler. Is he on drugs? Are the others on drugs? Isn't it the same, age-old question. You can see what you like and believe what you like. Whats to suggest hes taking anything that the others aren't? Or vice-versa? There are people and process who are tasked with that side of the sport. Until and unless they prove otherwise, I think Voeckler deserves the benefit of the doubt. Its not like he rode away from everyone like they were standing still. He merely kept up with some riders. And more power to him for it.


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    #137
    TinyExplosions
    Registered Users Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭TinyExplosions


    dedon wrote: »
    He won the stage by 30 min was it? My bad. You should be looking at the time between him and Armstrong not to o, Grady

    Oh, so now you're changing the goalposts a little.... you never mentioned Armstrong before now, you were talking about his performance in yellow, in which he stayed up with the leaders for a few stages, then faded.

    If you are wondering how he lost 30 minutes to Armstrong, that's the wrong question, it should be "how did Armstrong make up 30mins on the rest of the field", and the answer to that is pretty clear, if still circumstantial.


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    #138
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users Posts: 5,146 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Pity about Nico, but he's not a climber, better to stick to stage wins, give us something to cheer, a bit like Hushovd or Gilbert or Voeckler (in his previous incarnation:p). Speaking of which I was surprised to see him in the lead group today, surprised to see him following all those attacks, surprised to see him still in Yellow, but hey (he's having a great season) he's there and he's a breath of fresh air compared to the seriousness of the leading contenders, I imagine the steeper Alps will sort him out (unfortunately), week 3 is shaping up quite nicely tho.
    Imagine the Alpe dHuez if TV is still in yellow :pac:


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    #139
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,562 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    dedon wrote: »
    He won the stage by 30 min was it? My bad. You should be looking at the time between him and Armstrong not to o, Grady

    This is getting ludicrous, now you are saying losing time to Armstrong in 04 means he must be on drugs now because he hasn't lost time to others? Ffs that is one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard!


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    #140
    thereturn
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭thereturn


    Sensational stuff from Voeckler. I'm pretty convinced this turn is cleanest in years. Vaughters alluded to this too. Few quotes from him below
    Voeckler has lost a few kilo's in last year too. Makes a huge difference. One needs only to think of Wiggins to see another example losing weight can make.



    Vaughters: ‘Cheaters will be caught’

    “If you’re going to make the sport cleaner, so you have to catch people. It’s part of it,” Garmin-Cervélo manager Jonathan Vaughters told VeloNews. “I would be more concerned if no one was testing positive. That would show that the testing is ineffective. There are always going to be a few percentage of out-right liars and people who try to do things. If you want to make a sporting event fair, you have to catch those people. Inevitably, there will be positive tests.”

    Kolobnev has since left the race and claims he has no idea how the banned substance entered his system. A second, B-sample is expected to be carried out in the coming days. The Russian, who was awarded the bronze medal in the 2008 Olympic road race after silver medalist Davide Rebellin failed a doping test, could face a two-year racing ban.

    Vaughters said that fans and media should take the news as confirmation that the anti-doping system is working.

    “It’s not that I think (the majority of riders in Tour are clean), it’s that the broad scientific data points to exactly that,” Vaughters continued. “I know that the media doesn’t always have access to that. I know the general body of data has changed from the mid-1990s, it’s been incredible. The mean data in cycling, blood data, is not any different now than the general population. The scientific evidence shows that the majority of riders in this Tour de France are clean.”


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    #141
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,522 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    dedon wrote: »
    Voeckler! This has another scandal written all over it. How can he totally turn around his performances?

    He would usually loose 3 or 4 mins at least in these stages. I cannot understand it. Does not make any sense that he could totally change the way he rides.

    I think it is pretty disgraceful to be honest.

    Rasmussen all over again.
    No doping speculation - make sure you read the Charter (and TdF sticky) before posting


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    #142
    Gipo3
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Gipo3


    Roche going in attacks from now on.

    "Had lots of support today from crowds! Irish fans! And team mates! Will keep fighting! Go in the attacks from now on! Thanks everyone"


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    #143
    bcmf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭bcmf


    In fairness the schlecks dont have to do too much. Frank is second so (working on the presumption that 'Little' Tommy cracks) the rest have to do something. If Frank holds Evans and IMO Basso's wheel then he will be in Yellow. In Schleck world it doesnt matter which one gets yellow.
    Dont see where Contador is gonna get 3+ mins and if he does more dispersions will be cast on him.
    Saying that I would love to TV hold on all the way to Paris.


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    #144
    jiffybag
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭jiffybag


    ROK ON wrote: »
    Given the sports history people are rightfully entitled to be cynical.

    But if any of the following are doping, then I will castrate myself with a rusty spoon.
    My 1000% clean list is
    Voeckler
    Gilbert
    Chavenel
    Moncoutie

    I have my doubts about almost every other successful cyclist.
    Roche is clean or taking the wrong drugs ;-)

    Those are the riders you 'want' to be clean . We have no way of knowing 100% never mind 1000% . Gilbert is another revelation , Sean Kelly himself was shocked to see him racing every day so far in this tour . Natural talent will only take you so far.
    Voeckler is riding out of his skin ATM , so to is his team mate Rolland . But they are French and all French rider are too proud to cheat!


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    #145
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,015 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    jiffybag wrote: »
    But they are French and all French rider are too proud to cheat!

    (cough) Fabien Taillefer (cough)


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    #146
    TheBlaaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭TheBlaaMan


    That was a hugely disappointing day in front of the TV. I really wanted to see fireworks and - while that might be a bit naive given that there is still a hard week left in the tour - Frank and Andy Schleck said in start line interviews that they would be up for it today - what a joke !

    I was shouting at the TV in the last 2km willing one of them - or anyone else - to make a race of it. Granted Andy made a few weak efforts and so too did Evans and Voeckler, but they all looked nervous of doing something that might be overhauled and leave them in a greater deficit for Wk3, and so choose to do nothing !

    I'm really beginning to dislike Fr/Andy at this stage.... I hope they both go home empty-handed, they seem all piss-and-wind and if they are not careful, Contador will turn them both over in the next week, he didn't look great today, but neither was he reluctant to counter their moves, and if theres no real change before the ITT, there's every chance he'll recover and annihilate them both. Maybe I'm wrong and Andy will go all out in the Alps and win it on merit - unlikely if he doesnt stop looking behind him all the time; I surprised he doesn't fit some mirrors.:p

    Still hope Evans does it !!


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    #147
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    jiffybag wrote: »
    But they are French and all French riders are too proud to cheat!

    That's made my night !!

    Virenque, Moreau, Cofidis team, Hinault (admitted to hormonal "rebalancing"), Fignon, Anquetil and I could go on...


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    #148
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    On the subject of Voeckler's climbing this article is linked to in the science of sport article: http://cyclocosm.com/2011/07/a-tale-of-two-luz-ardidens-2003-and-2011/

    Intersting last paragraph!



    My take on Andy schleck is that he should have just set a high tempo and gradually rode them off his wheel if he was the strongest. That would have been more his natural stlyle. These showy faux-attacks seem to be a response to criticism that he's not an exciting attacker.


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    #149
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    RobFowl wrote: »
    That's made my night !!

    Virenque, Moreau, Cofidis team, Hinault (admitted to hormonal "rebalancing"), Fignon, Anquetil and I could go on...
    I think it is fairly accepted that post-Festina the French have been the cleanest nation.


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    #150
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    I think it is fairly accepted that post-Festina the French have been the cleanest nation.

    By the French !!


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    #151
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    RobFowl wrote: »
    By the French !!
    And me.


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