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EDISION mini argus combo got back 7 day epg.

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    #32
    simatoel
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭simatoel


    The synopsis has gone missing on the edision mini, but only from the DTT channels. It's still there on satellite channels, such as it is with only now/next programs listed. As It worked fine for the last couple of years or so, it is a certainty that something has changed in the stream or the manner in which the EPG is coded. Perhaps this is a difference in technical spec between RTENL MHEG and the version which the Edision is designed to work with, or perhaps the RTENL spec now uses extensions which were not coded into the original edision spec. I dont know enough about how its done, but someone somewhere in RTENL changed something, and the result is blank info panes on the Edision, making the box less attractive over 'approved' boxes. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for RTENL to revert to the version of MHEG which was previously compatible with the Edision, suppliers of approved boxes will be delighted though, as they've ponied up big time for approval stickers, now there's one less full featured non approved box to be had.


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    #33
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    EPG information is not contained in the MHEG stream. It is carried in the standard DVB EIT stream. Still OK on my Sony TV, and various DTT boxes and PC software (DVBviewer). I'm not sure why there seems to be an issue with the edision box?


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    #34
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    simatoel wrote: »
    I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for RTENL to revert to the version of MHEG which was previously compatible with the Edision,

    They have never used MHEG-5 for the epg, there was a plan for it some years ago and a short green button test last summer but nothing since.


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    #35
    simatoel
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭simatoel


    I stand corrected. What is certain is that some thing has changed in the way RTENL or RTE are coding the Synopsis, The 7 day EPG is fine, And the power off test STB suggested earlier reloads it from now/next to full 7 day as described, but the synopsis does not show, just an asterisk and an underscore. The sysnopsis still works on satellite channels, BBC etc, and the RTE ones had been working up to recently, so it is not a change in the edision, rather a change in the data been transmitted. perhaps a control character inserted into the text, to which the edision but not others is sensitive. Dont have the tools or the knowledge to sniff the streams, but if some members like fat-tony are reading, perhaps you could compare the info from satellite channels to the RTE ones to see if there is some basic difference. Funny how it happened just before the launch day....


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    #36
    swoofer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭swoofer


    I am toying with the idea of trying a few different software versions as all my other tweaks failed. I have emailed RTENL as well but I am not holding my breath for a reply. And yes it just happened before the launch. Its a shame really as that was a nice feature.

    gb--


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    #37
    simatoel
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭simatoel


    Don't waste your time on the software versions, I've different versions on two boxes, no change there. Edision are unlikely to tweak the boxes for an unofficial market either. It has to be a small change in the way the stream is composed or the content is formatted. It may even be that the format was changed innocently to tighten up the spec, putting it outside the edisions ability to read it. Note that the Edision always had a character set problem, especially when confronted with accents and fadas in irish (check TG4 EPG). If the edision software can be updated to solve that, I suspect the other problem might disappear. I'm going to email a contact in RTE and see what he can find out.


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    #38
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    @simatoel
    Its something the Edision doesnt like specifically.

    I have tested on a Clarketech, Technomate, Samsung TV and all are fine.

    RTE will not be changing the stream to suit a non supported grey box.

    Get onto Edision, record a 1 minute TS and email it to them. Take a photo of the screen scroll on the box showing the problem when it gets to programme info.

    You might explain that the boxes are quite popular here and being sold openly for combined DTT and Sat reception.


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    #39
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    simatoel wrote: »
    I stand corrected. What is certain is that some thing has changed in the way RTENL or RTE are coding the Synopsis, The 7 day EPG is fine, And the power off test STB suggested earlier reloads it from now/next to full 7 day as described, but the synopsis does not show, just an asterisk and an underscore. The sysnopsis still works on satellite channels, BBC etc, and the RTE ones had been working up to recently, so it is not a change in the edision, rather a change in the data been transmitted. perhaps a control character inserted into the text, to which the edision but not others is sensitive. Dont have the tools or the knowledge to sniff the streams, but if some members like fat-tony are reading, perhaps you could compare the info from satellite channels to the RTE ones to see if there is some basic difference. Funny how it happened just before the launch day....

    I've had a look at the current EIT stream and one I recorded a couple of months ago. Couple of differences, none of which will be helpful to you, probably:

    The language setting, which is a string value, in the Short Event descriptor, has changed from "eng" to "ENG". This could be the problem. RTENL are again "making it up" as regards language codes. ISO 639-2 specifies language codes in lower case - "eng". Maybe the Edision is overly picky as regards "ENG"???

    or

    A new descriptor field (hex value 54) which is used to supply a Content Description (like news, music etc.) has been inserted before the existing descriptor field (hex value 4E) which is the Extended Event field which contains info about the programme which is the bit you seem to be missing.

    The Extended Event field looks the same as the old one, except the language code again is "ENG" not "eng"!


    Further digging around! Only the EIT streams for RTE One, RTE One+1 and RTEjr seem to have this "ENG" setting. All other services have the "eng" setting. Even the TG4 EIT stream has "eng" as the language setting for EPG info, although the main service information in the PAT stream still has the made-up language setting "iri", instead of the correct "gle" value.


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    #40
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It might be interesting to note that on my box RTE 1 +1 is showing as having the 'scrambled' flag set. Does anyone else see that?


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    #41
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    It might be interesting to note that on my box RTE 1 +1 is showing as having the 'scrambled' flag set. Does anyone else see that?

    Yes on a Sony.


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    #42
    hadit2here
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭hadit2here


    i have also emailed rte to see what has changed .... if we got a description of the change, we might be able to get a firmware change from an official source


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    #43
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    hadit2here wrote: »
    i have also emailed rte to see what has changed .... if we got a description of the change, we might be able to get a firmware change from an official source
    See my post (#39) for details of the changes;)


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    #44
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    fat-tony wrote: »
    See my post (#39) for details of the changes;)

    PMT (Programme Map Table) via PSI/SI is per Nordig 2.0 according to specs I have read. I wonder....


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    #45
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    STB wrote: »
    PMT (Programme Map Table) via PSI/SI is per Nordig 2.0 according to specs I have read. I wonder....
    Wonder what? You think there is something in the PMT that is upsetting the Edision? I'll have a look if you care to point me in some direction! I'm assuming the DVB specs are a superset of the Nordig specs and that references to eg. ISO 639 "trump" any local interpretations or made-up language codes by Nordig or RTENL;)


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    #46
    simatoel
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭simatoel


    Excellent work F-T . My insider has indicated that the Saor people will not even respond to enquiries about non approved boxes, and worse, he's of the opinion that the tinkerings with the code were deliberate, to see if they could mess up grey boxes, but it might have been innocent too. I could email them your findings and ask for their reasons, or I could email edision these findings along with STB's suggestion of a minute of stream.
    If it never worked, fine, but its so irritating that someone broke it, for whatever reason, and is unlikely to revert to the older stream which worked. He promised to dig a little more, so I'll wait and see. Approved suppliers paid huge cash for certification, maybe they are pressuring RTENL, who knows.


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    #47
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    RTE have no interest in killing Grey boxes. They dont sell them. They do want as many people on analogue switched over to DTT as quick as possible to avoid complaints a year down the road with ASO.

    Get onto Edision - its specific to them. Photos of the problem. I do not have the same problem on my 3 year old Clarketech Combo nor Technomate 6900. My Samsung LE530 TV is also fine.

    Its an Edision problem and probably a simple firmware fix, once its not memory related. I would have thought pressing the i button continuously that it would call the data.


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    #48
    swoofer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭swoofer


    edison have a get out clause on their website, ie use of boxes in other countries not their problem.

    "If the intended use of the 'argus mini' outside Germany please go in the country on the receiving characteristics of image and sound standards. Edision responsible for HDTV reception outside Germany not guarantee a trouble-free reception."

    we are stuck but one never knows mabye RTENL might unbreak it again and they may have someone watching this board.

    Thats the problem with digital one tweak can creat havoc, I can remember in uk when an upgrade busted thousands of boxes but 30 quid is fixable. argus cost me 140 euro and I like it, component, hdmi. etc.

    gb-


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    #49
    simatoel
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭simatoel


    STB wrote: »
    RTE have no interest in killing Grey boxes. They do want as many people on analogue switched over to DTT as quick as possible to avoid complaints a year down the road with ASO...
    I would have thought that, but then they did charge an arm and leg to suppliers of approved boxes, who maybe are pressurising them to show that unapproved boxes don't work. This is speculation on my part, but I trust my source's instinct and information. He was right before about the TV3 disappearance episode. They can't and won't interact with users/suppliers of grey boxes that are a fraction outside their spec. GBC is right also, Edision do have a disclaimer, but they were Ok to deal with before when I mailed on a tech issue. I'll give it a try.


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    #50
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    I too, would doubt that RTENL would have any interest in causing problems for "grey" boxes, but also would have no interest in resolving issues that don't affect approved kit. By the way, the "ENG" has reverted back to "eng" on RTE One. On RTE One+1 the EPG stream is still showing "ENG" for some programmes and not for others. Strangely, it's not an exact copy of the RTE One EPG with the times advanced one hour as one might expect. For example, the Six-one news has a different title and different synopsis data on the two channels.


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    #51
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Did anyone who owns one of these boxes either contact Edision or send a stream to them for analysis? The same problem has been reported on the Ferguson combos.


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    #52
    swoofer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭swoofer


    I had a look on the edision argus site but could not for the life of me find an email address and they have that disclaimer as well.

    The problem obivously lies with RTENL as quite a few other boxes have the same problem so it is not unique to the edision. I emailed RTENL a long while back but I dont thik I will ever get a reply. Its ironic they want to launch a mew service but not bothered about impacting on early adopters and combos. You can see the dilemma if combos work well then sky gets dropped sharpish so knock out combos = simples.

    I am beginning to lose interest and will just wait for next year. We are quite a few years behind and it looks as if the thinking is of that ilk as well. The best example I can give is the RTE HD dog and NO hd programs!! Why??? What is the thinking? Have they forgotten to take it off, do they know its there?? We just don't complain enough.

    GBC


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    #53
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭Apogee


    info@edision.gr
    sales@edision.gr
    info@edision.de

    IBEC GmbH
    Einsteinstrasse 10
    D - 71691 Freiberg am Neckar
    Germany
    Fax: 0049 7141 299 77 995
    E-mail: info@edision.de


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    #54
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Apogee wrote: »
    Did anyone who owns one of these boxes either contact Edision or send a stream to them for analysis? The same problem has been reported on the Ferguson combos.

    It is sad to see the childish antics that are going on between suppliers with claims of Audio & Video Sync Problems "being well founded" on certain products.

    The simple truth in the matter is that the said supplier is using the same said boxes rebadged with the same chipset as Globo/Truman/Yumatu/Opticum/Edision/Ferguson. Indeed the firmware is written according to the chipset by the same guys in Globo/ILTV. There is no need for any laughing down sleeves.

    The common chipset in all of these latest cheap end combo boxes is the Ali 3602 chip. Thats why the problems are common.

    - Edision Argus Mini 2in1
    - Amiko STHD-8800
    - Golden Media Uni-Box 9060
    - Opticum HD X402p
    - Opticum HD X403p
    - Ferguson Ariva 120 HD Combo.
    - SAB Titan II
    and plenty more.

    There are 2 seperate loaders under this chipset, the Loader M3602A and B.

    The Edisions themselves have undergone significant firmware changes to sort similar problems. The Fergusons will be fixed on the same basis (its been done already). Same common problems with all in this chipset group.

    Infact the channel lists are easily exportable from those in the same Ali chipset range. .ABS files......


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    #55
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭Apogee


    STB wrote: »
    It is sad to see the childish antics that are going on between suppliers with claims of Audio & Video Sync Problems "being well founded" on certain products.

    What are you on about?
    STB wrote: »
    There is no need for any laughing down sleeves.

    Who is that statement directed at?


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    #56
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    A common discussion.

    http://www.tvtrade.ie/ferguson-ariva-120-combo.html

    Its in the Ferguson Ariva HD120 thread. One supplier selling the Edision, one selling the Ferguson, both written by the same firmware writer, both based on the same chipset (hence common problems).

    It wasnt directed at you.

    As we all know, the problem is getting the firmware writer to understand the common problems with the firmware that has been included on all these boxes. Getting through the lot to the OEM writers is the issue as well as the language problems. These "branded" boxes are dependant on the same OEM inhouse coders..


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    #57
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Is there a contact address for Globo/ILTV so? Kill two birds with one stone and get the fixes incorporated into firmwares for both sets of receivers?


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    #58
    simatoel
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭simatoel


    Seems like the ferguson has some bigger issues than the missing synopsis. I havn't sent that test TS to edision yet, been distracted . If the sysnopsis problem is solved for one brand, it can be solved for others. I do have an email address for edision somewhere, as I contacted them about a technical issue before.


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    #59
    swoofer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭swoofer


    I tried the info @edision.de and it just gets bounced back. Is it a greek or german company?


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    #60
    simatoel
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭simatoel


    GBCULLEN wrote: »
    I tried the info @edision.de and it just gets bounced back. Is it a greek or german company?

    Thats the one, I got replies before from here. They are a German company, It helps if you translate your query, use google translate, send it with the English version. I've recorded some test streams to .DVR files on my disk. I've tried to preview them using DVR_studio HD, which I've just downloaded from edision, but the files are being flagged as encrypted. I dont want to send off something they cant read, perhaps its only the audio/video that's encrypted, not the stream headers and data. Has anyone successfully viewed these .DVR files on anything (e.g. a PC) other than the edision itself. There was a post about the encryption flag recently. Are RTE encrypting the streams, with the key being sent for free (at the moment)? Later you'll have to pay your TV licence to get it!!!. (sick joke). Perhaps its just the encryption flag is on, I dont think the actual streams are encrypted, the Edision itself can handle Conax decryption, but if the streams were encrypted, it would require a card. I just dont know enough about the capabilities of the box.
    As an aside, the RTE player streams on the internet are encrypted, they can be viewed but they can't be downloaded with any of the capture software out there except screen grabber programs. This is another debate for another thread, so lets not get into it.


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    #61
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The Saorview streams are not and have never been encrypted.


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