Dublin Bus Network Review

LXFlyer · 20-04-2011 2:57pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

A tweak of the tweaks of the review, eh

If that's what's needed to get it right then so be it!

Paddy Orwell · 20-04-2011 3:02pm

Fair play, Lxflyer!

LXFlyer · 20-04-2011 3:05pm

Paddy Orwell wrote: »

Lxflyer, you are unlikely to get me taking the 38a now via blanch village as i don't have time to experiment, i have to get to and from work so i will be driving to the train station and jettisoning the bus. My guess is at peak times that it will add 10-15 mins and more if there is a tailback at the snugboro junction as there can often be at peak times in the evening coming from the village. There is a more fundamental question as to why it is going there in the first place and why Blanch north/mulhuddart is the poor relation in the transport system.

Well to me the obvious solution is to convert the evening peak 38a service from 1640 to 1830 to become a 38b (in either direction) and leave the off-peak services via Blanchardstown Village.

From what I heard the issue was people in the Village area asking for an increase in services.

Paddy Orwell · 20-04-2011 3:52pm

Lxflyer, the village people already have a 38,39 and train station serving them. Did they make their requests known to Leo? Seems like there is a socio-economic bias going on here. Based on population, there is absolutely no justification for it. Would you not agree?

LXFlyer · 20-04-2011 4:17pm

Paddy Orwell wrote: »

Lxflyer, the village people already have a 38,39 and train station serving them. Did they make their requests known to Leo? Seems like there is a socio-economic bias going on here. Based on population, there is absolutely no justification for it. Would you not agree?

I don't think Leo has anything to do with this - there were posts on here before that people in the village were asking for more buses if you care to go back through all of the posts (which I don't have time to do).

devnull · 20-04-2011 7:58pm

I used the 4 at the weekend, first time in months since I dumped my commuter ticket as car was in for service. Terrible service still, totally crammed full of people wanting to go to the RDS had to be turned away.

AlekSmart · 20-04-2011 10:39pm

Paddy Orwell wrote: »

Lxflyer, the village people already have a 38,39 and train station serving them. Did they make their requests known to Leo? Seems like there is a socio-economic bias going on here. Based on population, there is absolutely no justification for it. Would you not agree?

Bejapers Paddy,are you any relation to George ?

That's a mighty pertinent question you pose.....I reckon we'll need Leo to answer that in person !

CIE · 20-04-2011 11:55pm

devnull wrote: »

I used the 4 at the weekend, first time in months since I dumped my commuter ticket as car was in for service. Terrible service still, totally crammed full of people wanting to go to the RDS had to be turned away.

Sounds like a candidate for "limited-stop" service. Or is the focus of Network Destruct all-local, all-the-time, with limited-stop not even under consideration and express service on the periphery?

antoinolachtnai · 21-04-2011 12:08am

The 4 is a great route when it is running well. The problem isn't too many stops, it's the lack of matching capacity to demand.

I think the 4 could attract the same patronage as a Luas line if it had the consistent service level and the right marketing and positioning.

Flukey · 21-04-2011 1:05am

From the council piece about the need for proposed upgrade of the stop on the N11 near Stillorgan:

This bus stop is heavily used

That is very true and particularly so since the introduction of Network They Wrecked. It meant routes being axed and so adding more people to that stop that never needed to use it beforehand. It is also busy because many full buses pass it, with passengers who also had their routes cut. So because the extra people can't get on, the stop can cram with people even more. Every once in a while enough bus capacity comes along to clear most of it, but it very quickly fills up again. It was always a busy stop, but it's the negative impacts of Network They Wrecked that has made that stop extra busy.

The traffic problems through the village are of course a problem for the 46A. However I think it would be much easier to do some work to give more bus priority there than what would be needed to help the congestion through the Goatstown to Clonskeagh route that makes getting the 11 during rush hour almost a futile exercise. Off-peak, you can get in or out of town very easily and quickly on the 11 bus. Rush hour - forget it! It would be brilliant if they could sort that out. Unfortunately the space is inconsistent, so while there are places between Goatstown and Clonskeagh where it could be easily widened to hold an extra lane, there are other places where it would be almost impossible.

Even at the places where there is most room, you'd probably only get one extra lane in comfortably when of course you'd actually need an extra one on both sides. At the widest parts you just might squeeze 2 extra lanes and keep footpaths and cycle lanes. But to make it work you'd need to bring it all from 2 lanes to 4 lanes and as it is there are places where even just the two lanes take up the majority of space, never mind getting more in. So as I said earlier, widening the parts that could be improved would just be moving the bottleneck further along. It needs and all or nothing job to cure the bottlenecks. It already has several and they are mostly the places where there is least scope to do anything.

When the bus lane first opened on the N11 there was a noticeable increase of traffic on the Goatstown/Clonskeagh route. The opening of Junction 13 on the M50 and the Drumartin link road added further to its congestion. Whatever you could do with that road and whatever priority would be given would not sufficiently help the buses and still leaves the problem of where that extra traffic can go. I don't think there is much that could be done.

AlekSmart · 21-04-2011 5:37am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The 4 is a great route when it is running well. The problem isn't too many stops, it's the lack of matching capacity to demand.

I think the 4 could attract the same patronage as a Luas line if it had the consistent service level and the right marketing and positioning.

As it had upon it's introduction and thereafter until it was Network Directed...?

AlekSmart · 21-04-2011 5:40am

[QUOTE=Flukey;71809353

Off-peak, you can get in or out of town very easily and quickly on the 11 bus. Rush hour - forget it! It would be brilliant if they could sort that out. Unfortunately the space is inconsistent, so while there are places between Goatstown and Clonskeagh where it could be easily widened to hold an extra lane, there are other places where it would be almost impossible.

I don't think there is much that could be done.[/QUOTE]

Whilst I would agree on the space issue,I would also suggest that it's Priority that is being sought rather than a full Lane per se....Innovation and inventiveness will always win out....:eek:

lucernarian · 21-04-2011 11:49am

I wouldn't even say the 4 ever had adequate capacity. I can think of many times over the last 4 years when the stretch from O'Connell St to Ballsbridge was packed beyond reason at peak times. That applies to the 7 too I suppose.

AlekSmart · 21-04-2011 2:19pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I wouldn't even say the 4 ever had adequate capacity. I can think of many times over the last 4 years when the stretch from O'Connell St to Ballsbridge was packed beyond reason at peak times. That applies to the 7 too I suppose.

I would suggest that the 4 had the capacity,especially with the Artic`s,however.....whether that capacity was effectively utilized is another thing altogether !!

schemingbohemia · 21-04-2011 4:08pm

Flukey wrote: »

From the council piece about the need for proposed upgrade of the stop on the N11 near Stillorgan:

That is very true and particularly so since the introduction of Network They Wrecked. It meant routes being axed and so adding more people to that stop that never needed to use it beforehand. It is also busy because many full buses pass it, with passengers who also had their routes cut. So because the extra people can't get on, the stop can cram with people even more. Every once in a while enough bus capacity comes along to clear most of it, but it very quickly fills up again. It was always a busy stop, but it's the negative impacts of Network They Wrecked that has made that stop extra busy.

The traffic problems through the village are of course a problem for the 46A. However I think it would be much easier to do some work to give more bus priority there than what would be needed to help the congestion through the Goatstown to Clonskeagh route that makes getting the 11 during rush hour almost a futile exercise. Off-peak, you can get in or out of town very easily and quickly on the 11 bus. Rush hour - forget it! It would be brilliant if they could sort that out. Unfortunately the space is inconsistent, so while there are places between Goatstown and Clonskeagh where it could be easily widened to hold an extra lane, there are other places where it would be almost impossible.

Even at the places where there is most room, you'd probably only get one extra lane in comfortably when of course you'd actually need an extra one on both sides. At the widest parts you just might squeeze 2 extra lanes and keep footpaths and cycle lanes. But to make it work you'd need to bring it all from 2 lanes to 4 lanes and as it is there are places where even just the two lanes take up the majority of space, never mind getting more in. So as I said earlier, widening the parts that could be improved would just be moving the bottleneck further along. It needs and all or nothing job to cure the bottlenecks. It already has several and they are mostly the places where there is least scope to do anything.

When the bus lane first opened on the N11 there was a noticeable increase of traffic on the Goatstown/Clonskeagh route. The opening of Junction 13 on the M50 and the Drumartin link road added further to its congestion. Whatever you could do with that road and whatever priority would be given would not sufficiently help the buses and still leaves the problem of where that extra traffic can go. I don't think there is much that could be done.

I can only speak from my own experience of the stop on the N11 (around 8am on a 7D) but I've never seen a huge amount of people getting on there, maybe after that time they do, and my bus would probably be an exception on that route as it is rarely full (due mostly to people not realising it it goes the exact same way as the 46a into the city centre) so we always stop there. There are quite a few people getting off at that stop, mostly school children.

LXFlyer · 21-04-2011 4:31pm

Flukey wrote: »

From the council piece about the need for proposed upgrade of the stop on the N11 near Stillorgan:

That is very true and particularly so since the introduction of Network They Wrecked. It meant routes being axed and so adding more people to that stop that never needed to use it beforehand. It is also busy because many full buses pass it, with passengers who also had their routes cut. So because the extra people can't get on, the stop can cram with people even more. Every once in a while enough bus capacity comes along to clear most of it, but it very quickly fills up again. It was always a busy stop, but it's the negative impacts of Network They Wrecked that has made that stop extra busy.
.

The only routes that were axed were the 10a, 46b, 46c and 46d. All the others remained (albeit rerouted in the case of the 63 and 84).

Revised rosters have been in place on the 46a and 47 for 3 months and the on 145 for the past fortnight that should address the reliability issues. The issue of not being able to get on buses should have diminished as a result, coupled with the re-introduction of the extra 145s from Loughlinstown.

devnull · 21-04-2011 7:06pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would suggest that the 4 had the capacity,especially with the Artic`s,however.....whether that capacity was effectively utilized is another thing altogether !!

On services going through the city centre around 8.20-9.00 it was not uncommon for well over 100 people to be on articulated buses on a ten minute frequency. Since then we've had a cut in peak frequency to every 15 minutes and lost the artics - it's why I went back to car pooling.

Dublin Bus reaction to me was that capacity had now been increased following the removal of the bendy buses, and the service should now be more reliable. My experience was anything but, and it led to me abandoning Dublin Bus.

The fact is the 4 frequency on the weekend is abysmal. And during peak Monday to Friday it is too. Outside of peak Monday to Friday it's not too bad, but that is the only time.

SparkyTech · 22-04-2011 2:38pm

devnull wrote: »

The fact is the 4 frequency on the weekend is abysmal. And during peak Monday to Friday it is too. Outside of peak Monday to Friday it's not too bad, but that is the only time.

Indeed. For such a long cross city route (with the same demand alike to the 16) having so few buses on a Sunday is beyond a joke

thomasj · 22-04-2011 3:21pm

Well for one thing for those trying to board these buses after trinity college, extend the 45 to the 47 terminus, there is a fair bit of buslane to get there so shouldnt be too much bother.

Also i wonder is there scope for extending the blanch or lucan buses to ballsbridge its about 5 minutes from the current merrion square terminus? Let them then use the merrion square, pearse street flow.

Cookie_Monster · 22-04-2011 3:51pm

I just noticed, a year to the day since it first came up

Dublin Bus to change and combine routes
Thursday, 22 April 2010 07:59

at this rate it might be finally done some time around 2032

LXFlyer · 22-04-2011 3:56pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I just noticed, a year to the day since it first came up

at this rate it might be finally done some time around 2032

I wouldn't think it'll be that long. By my reckoning there's only three maybe four consultations to go.

thomasj · 22-04-2011 3:56pm

Wow! I didnt see that last 12 months come around! Time flys!

We might have 3 more areas done come 12 months time!

honru · 23-04-2011 12:58am

thomasj wrote: »

Well for one thing for those trying to board these buses after trinity college, extend the 45 to the 47 terminus, there is a fair bit of buslane to get there so shouldnt be too much bother.

Yeah, terminating the 45 at Merrion Square is stupid... only 700m more to Pearse Street and it would open up the route to a lot more potential passengers.

Cool Mo D · 23-04-2011 3:03pm

Speaking of the number 4, I think the 4 would be an ideal route to move off O'Connell street, and open up a new cross-city route, and open some new journey possibilities.

At Broadstone, it should head straight down Church street, cross the Father Mathew Bridge, and head down High street and Dame street. At College green it would use townsend street eastbound, before heading up Lombard street and Westland row to get back on its current routing. Heading west through the city it would use Pearse street.

If a continuous bus lane was provided on Dame street with the removal of the taxi rank outside citi bar, and a bus lane along Townsend street and Lombard street, I would say that this route would be faster than the current one, as Church street moves pretty freely even at rush hour, but only the 83 is using it at the moment.

devnull · 23-04-2011 6:25pm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Speaking of the number 4, I think the 4 would be an ideal route to move off O'Connell street, and open up a new cross-city route, and open some new journey possibilities.

You don't get the number 4 ever do you? That is obvious from what you have posted.

The fundamental problem with the number 4, and infact the number 7 now is there is simply not enough capacity from O'Connell Street/O'Connell Bridge/Trinity College to Ballsbridge, this has caused many people to abandoning getting the bus and has become much worse since the withdrawl of high capacity buses, and the cut of the peak frequency from 6 buses an hour to 4 buses an hour.

So your plan is to remove the bus from the stops where upwards of 50 people are waiting every morning, to resolve the current problems? That is the kind of thing I'd expect the likes of the Network Direct team to come up with, it makes that little sense. The problem with the number 4 can easily be solved. It's called restoring peak frequency to every 10 minutes Monday to Friday, and improving the frequency at weekends.

There is fundamentally nothing wrong with the route that the 4 actually takes, infact when it was introduced it was one of the most successful, if not the most successful route Dublin Bus have introduced in the last 10 years. This is bore out by the fact it gained an increase in frequency when the 4A came along, and it was seen to be having AW's with a hundred plus people on every morning and evening. If anything this proves the route has become a victim of it's own success.

At the end of the day many people have abandoned the 4 and Dublin Bus including myself because of the cuts, I work with at least six people who used to get the bus, who have given up now because of the lottery in the mornings of if you are going to be able to board a bus or how many buses will go pass because one stops because they are overcrowded, following the cuts I frequently saw around 40+ people left behind at Trinity, and another 40+ being left behind at O'Connell Bridge with the same number boarding at O'Connell Street (if they could all get on).

So for sure routing the number 4 away from where the core of it's users come from will solve the problem, it'll mean the people who have a choice simply won't use the bus and will go back to the car, and the ones who do will have a little extra walk in the morning, to get the number 4, at a stop where the 7 also does not stop, meaning that the routes that serve Ballsbridge are now seperate. This will make the whole situation worse for bus users.

By the way, incase you are wondering I actually used the 4 for years after it was introduced, and regarded it as one of the rare things Dublin Bus actually got right. It made me abandon my car to work and get the bus. Unfortunately for Dublin Bus they decided to take an axe to a perfectly functioning route that was already bursting at the seams, there was a far bigger argument for increasing the peak time frequency, than the savage cuts it actually got. But they destroyed it, and drove away revenue and users off their services in the process.

CIE · 23-04-2011 6:55pm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Speaking of the number 4, I think the 4 would be an ideal route to move off O'Connell street, and open up a new cross-city route, and open some new journey possibilities.

At Broadstone, it should head straight down Church street, cross the Father Mathew Bridge, and head down High street and Dame street. At College green it would use townsend street eastbound, before heading up Lombard street and Westland row to get back on its current routing. Heading west through the city it would use Pearse street.

If a continuous bus lane was provided on Dame street with the removal of the taxi rank outside citi bar, and a bus lane along Townsend street and Lombard street, I would say that this route would be faster than the current one, as Church street moves pretty freely even at rush hour, but only the 83 is using it at the moment.

Wasn't the new plan for the 83 to take it off Church Street and send it via Western Way instead...?

Goonerette · 23-04-2011 9:28pm

f®eak s©enery wrote: »

Yeah, terminating the 45 at Merrion Square is stupid... only 700m more to Pearse Street and it would open up the route to a lot more potential passengers.

Agreed. There is nothing more annoying than standing at a bus stop in the morning waiting for the new and improved (:rolleyes:) overcrowded 4 or the unreliable 7 to get to O'Connell Street only to see the useless half-empty 45 passing you by which inexplicably terminates at Merrion Sq.

CIE · 23-04-2011 9:47pm

Goonerette wrote: »

Agreed. There is nothing more annoying than standing at a bus stop in the morning waiting for the new and improved (:rolleyes:) overcrowded 4 or the unreliable 7 to get to O'Connell Street only to see the useless half-empty 45 passing you by which inexplicably terminates at Merrion Sq.

It was only two years back that the 45 was still terminating at Eden Quay, with 57 departures each way on weekdays, too. Now it seems they want to make everything all about either the 145 or the train; you can't induce demand by removing choice.

AlekSmart · 24-04-2011 12:32am

devnull wrote: »

The fundamental problem with the number 4, and infact the number 7 now is there is simply not enough capacity from O'Connell Street/O'Connell Bridge/Trinity College to Ballsbridge, this has caused many people to abandoning getting the bus and has become much worse since the withdrawl of high capacity buses, and the cut of the peak frequency from 6 buses an hour to 4 buses an hour.

So your plan is to remove the bus from the stops where upwards of 50 people are waiting every morning, to resolve the current problems? That is the kind of thing I'd expect the likes of the Network Direct team to come up with, it makes that little sense. The problem with the number 4 can easily be solved. It's called restoring peak frequency to every 10 minutes Monday to Friday, and improving the frequency at weekends.

There is fundamentally nothing wrong with the route that the 4 actually takes, infact when it was introduced it was one of the most successful, if not the most successful route Dublin Bus have introduced in the last 10 years. This is bore out by the fact it gained an increase in frequency when the 4A came along, and it was seen to be having AW's with a hundred plus people on every morning and evening. If anything this proves the route has become a victim of it's own success.

At the end of the day many people have abandoned the 4 and Dublin Bus including myself because of the cuts, I work with at least six people who used to get the bus, who have given up now because of the lottery in the mornings of if you are going to be able to board a bus or how many buses will go pass because one stops because they are overcrowded, following the cuts I frequently saw around 40+ people left behind at Trinity, and another 40+ being left behind at O'Connell Bridge with the same number boarding at O'Connell Street (if they could all get on).

So for sure routing the number 4 away from where the core of it's users come from will solve the problem, it'll mean the people who have a choice simply won't use the bus and will go back to the car, and the ones who do will have a little extra walk in the morning, to get the number 4, at a stop where the 7 also does not stop, meaning that the routes that serve Ballsbridge are now seperate. This will make the whole situation worse for bus users.

By the way, incase you are wondering I actually used the 4 for years after it was introduced, and regarded it as one of the rare things Dublin Bus actually got right. It made me abandon my car to work and get the bus. Unfortunately for Dublin Bus they decided to take an axe to a perfectly functioning route that was already bursting at the seams, there was a far bigger argument for increasing the peak time frequency, than the savage cuts it actually got. But they destroyed it, and drove away revenue and users off their services in the process.

Excellent post Devnull.

It contains everything which should be taken into consideration by the Network Direct "Team" who,apparently are now responsible for all operational matters in Dublin Bus.

As a Busdriver,I actually believe that taking the Deloitte Report`s conclusions and recommendations is sensible and forward thinking policy.

However what has happened to date is nothing like a coherent or cohesive implimentation process of those elements.

It was lunacy to meddle with the most recently introduced DB routes such as the 4 and 145,simply because these routes were ahead of the game and examples of cohesive internal thinking by DB staff long before Deloitte appeared on the scene.

If,and it's a big IF,Dublin Bus are really concerned about the fall in usership,then it needs to reassess the manner in which the Network Direct "Team" is operating.

Half cocked negative,counterproductive ideas as best represented by the 4,11,145,140 route scenarios need to be stopped dead in their tracks NOW

As a short term measure,the pre-ND frequency on the 4 needs to be reinstated.
The 145 is best returned to it`s original routeing asap,with Heuston Station being served by a reintroduced/realigned 90/92 operating to Belfield.
The proposed 54A-140 merger should not proceed with the 140 instead extended to St Vincents Hospital from it's present terminus via Northumberland Road and the RDS.(Haddington Rd and Mespil rd on return leg).

Without doubt something needs to be done to reinforce the need for Network Direct to start following the customers rather than attempting to force them off Public Transport (Possibly forever !!) :mad:

honru · 24-04-2011 6:21pm

I could be wrong but it seems Dublin Bus's rationale for reducing the 4 frequency is down to proposals of a high-frequency 7 on the southern part of the city and a new high-frequency 13 route on the northern part of the city. The 4 seems to be relegated as a sort of cross-city option similar to the 11 that supplements higher-frequency routes. Of course this doesn't excuse the unnecessarily large cut to services on weekends.

Should the 4 have been kept a high-frequency route, over the 7? Will a high-frequency 7 brings things back to normalcy?

(I'm no longer a daily user of the 4 but I echo the sentiments here, I found it a fantastic route).

Dublin Bus Network Review

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