Dublin Bus Network Review

schemingbohemia · 19-04-2011 10:56am

Flukey wrote: »

I personally have no problem in getting from the shopping centre to the dual carriageway and have often used the route on the map. It is not me that I am talking about. I still think it is wrong to have removed the services from the shopping centre. It is the main focal point of the area and so it should be properly served in the way it always was, and that means having the 46A going past it. The shopping centre isn't just your typical slight detour going along a road that has nothing of significance on it. There are lots of detours like that, and they could be removed, but the Stillorgan shopping centre is different. Also, as Liger mentioned, getting to the other side of the dual carriageway is a bigger problem. You can get there of course, but the buses should still serve the shopping centre.

You can use the "serving the majority" argument, but the logic of that would mean that no bus stop would be stopped at because the majority of the people on the bus don't get on or off at it. For most people, going through Stillorgan village is an inconvenience, but it serves a significant amount of people, which can be seen by the amount of people that get on and off at the stops around it.

We could take other examples on the 46A route and try the same argument. So, playing devil's advocate, should all the buses going along the N11 also bypass the slip roads to the UCD stops for example? There are stops before and after the slip roads on both sides, so couldn't people get off at them? Look at all of those young, fit students; wouldn't they be well able to walk up and down the slip roads rather than being brought to the main entrance, and even into the complex, and couldn't the residents of Seafield do the same on the other side? It would be much faster to run the buses under the bridge and the majority of people on the buses don't get on or off at UCD or Seafield, so shouldn't that be done too?

Now, I don't get on or off at those stops and I know it would be faster to avoid them, but I do appreciate that people that want to get on and off at them have the right to do so and it is better for them to get on and off at them, than having a few extra minutes added to their journey by the walk to and from the stops before and after the slip roads. So I would not argue for the UCD and Seafield slip roads to be bypassed, even though it would speed up my journeys and journeys of the majority of others and there would be plenty of validity in doing so. Equally, Stillorgan shopping centre should not be bypassed. OK, many more people get on and off at the UCD and Seafield slip road stops than do at Stillorgan, but, using the arguments made by others here, the majority of people don't, so it would serve the greater good to bypass them. I don't think it should happen, and I'd say many people in this thread would agree with me. If they do, then for the exact same reasons Stillorgan shouldn't be bypassed either. If they don't agree with the Stillorgan shopping centre stops, then they are effectively making the case for bypassing Seafield and UCD. So serve both Stillorgan and the flyover slip roads or neither.

Pure rubbish.
The UCD sliproad does not diminish the speed of the bus to any great extent, it's at grade, has one traffic light where the bus rarely has to stop and then pops along to a very busy stop then merges easily with the next bus lane at the bottom of the ramp.
The Stillorgan detour involves a significant slow down in speed to take the left turn from the South, then involves a significant delay at 4 sets of traffic lights, none of which has bus priority and then has difficulty merging into the next bus lane because of the proximity of the next left turn off the road.

LXFlyer · 19-04-2011 11:48am

There is also an upgrade planned for the current N11 inbound stop.

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/QBNProjectOffice/DunLaoghaireRathdown/Pages/N11BusStopStillorgan.aspx

Cookie_Monster · 19-04-2011 11:58am

lxflyer wrote: »

There is also an upgrade planned for the current N11 inbound stop.

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/QBNProjectOffice/DunLaoghaireRathdown/Pages/N11BusStopStillorgan.aspx

what on earth are they doing with the cycle lane in all that. It just disappears for a few dozen metres in front of the stop. :rolleyes: great planning

LXFlyer · 19-04-2011 12:40pm

The cycle lane continues as is - it's the grey bit underneath the bus lane. They are just moving the cycle lane behind the new bus shelter.

Cookie_Monster · 19-04-2011 1:21pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The cycle lane continues as is - it's the grey bit underneath the bus lane. They are just moving the cycle lane behind the new bus shelter.

that just says "carriageway" for that colour and the bike lane is blue elsewhere. why is there a yield on the bus lane above the "section A - A" text on the left than also?

schemingbohemia · 19-04-2011 2:40pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that just says "carriageway" for that colour and the bike lane is blue elsewhere. why is there a yield on the bus lane above the "section A - A" text on the left than also?

it's a joint pedestrian/cycleway on the grey part, it's a pure cycleway where it's blue.

I can't see the yield sign on the map but there's a sign there at present for cyclists to yield to pedestrians just before the bus stop at present, it's a bit of a dangerous set up at present and the proposed change seems to me to make it a lot safer.

noelfirl · 19-04-2011 2:49pm

It's a combined usage lane, the yield indicating to give way to pedestrians. Also note the yellow patch tactile surfaces after the yield triangle and around the bus stop. There musn't be room for both cycle lane and path so they're merged for that little bit. The real question I'd have is the worth of producing a bi-lingual leaflet for changes to a bus stop.

Cookie_Monster · 19-04-2011 2:54pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

it's a joint pedestrian/cycleway on the grey part,

oh dear. but anyway. It's an improvement on what's there from a bus users point of view anyway.

noelfirl wrote: »

The real question I'd have is the worth of producing a bi-lingual leaflet for changes to a bus stop.

well you'd only get certain people whining that it's not in Irish and demanding they reprint it anyway

Devilman40k · 19-04-2011 3:10pm

SparkyTech wrote: »

I It might not be fair but DB are a cross bewtween public service and private industry, and have to balance profit with community service, unfortunatly.

Maybe Dublin Bus should consider removing the "serving the entire community" moniker to one which states..."serving those who are economically productive and live on the N11"

Aard · 19-04-2011 5:07pm

The 46a and 145 are some of the most succesful routes on the network. I imagine the reason they're so successful is more to do with the sheer length of the the N11 corridor -- it's the longest continuously urbanised corridor out of Dublin city centre. The number of journey possibilities on a single line is greater than anywhere else, so it attracts more customers, who in turn pay more in fares, which makes the route succesful, which encourages DB to invest in it more. There are also a lot of trip generators on the route compared with others: Cornelscourt, Stillorgan SC, Belfield, Donnybrook.

(Also, just a hunch, but I imagine there is a more appealing ratio between paying customers and DSP pass users out that direction too.)

LXFlyer · 19-04-2011 5:22pm

Devilman40k wrote: »

Maybe Dublin Bus should consider removing the "serving the entire community" moniker to one which states..."serving those who are economically productive and live on the N11"

The 47 and 84 both still serve Stillorgan and the N11 so I think that is not quite accurate.

At the end of the day what is happening is that services are being reprioritised in line with demand.

There are still off-peak services on the 47 and 63 serving Mount Merrion and Foxrock Village respectively for example.

jacko1 · 19-04-2011 5:29pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The 47 and 84 both still serve Stillorgan and the N11 so I think that is not quite accurate.

At the end of the day what is happening is that services are being reprioritised in line with demand.

There are still off-peak services on the 47 and 63 serving Mount Merrion and Foxrock Village respectively for example.

63 actually now runs from Dun Laoghaire to Kilternan (not via foxrock village)

LXFlyer · 19-04-2011 6:03pm

jacko1 wrote: »

63 actually now runs from Dun Laoghaire to Kilternan (not via foxrock village)

Read my post again. I said certain off-peak trips on the 63 serve Foxrock Village. Check out the 63 timetable and you will see that is the case.

I am well aware of the revised route of the 63. The point that I'm making is that some provision is being made for bus users that were discommoded by the network changes.

Devilman40k · 19-04-2011 10:50pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The 47 and 84 both still serve Stillorgan and the N11 so I think that is not quite accurate.

At the end of the day what is happening is that services are being reprioritised in line with demand.

There are still off-peak services on the 47 and 63 serving Mount Merrion and Foxrock Village respectively for example.

Read my post...I'm not talking about Stillorgan, my point is, as ND continues there is going to be a perception amongst many other Dubliners (rightly or wrongly) that the N11 corridor will get priority over anywhere else.

I have already heard it where I am, people have cottoned on to the fact that the service in the area is going to be reduced from 3 functioning routes to 1 and a half + an orbital route which will become ever more unreliable with its extension, all this without the alternative of Luas or Dart..and with a large and growing elderly population, but have mentioned (or got the perception) that the 46A hasn't been hit as hard .

I can picture a situation in 3-5 years time where we are complaining about high levels of traffic on Dublins roads where avg journey speeds return to those seen in the mid 1990's (not everywhere has access to a QBC). And when the question is asked hopefully someone will direct the answer at Dublin Bus and Network Direct

Cookie_Monster · 19-04-2011 11:04pm

Devilman40k wrote: »

that the 46A hasn't been hit as hard .

why would they "hit" the busiest route in the city at all?

Devilman40k · 19-04-2011 11:11pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why would they "hit" the busiest route in the city at all?

People who dont use it, don't care if its the busiest route in the city. My point is the perception that is given by reducing other areas by 50 - 100% and some not so much, I know the 46A has been affected..I no longer use it and drive instead (giving up my annual ticket in the process)

SafetyPin · 20-04-2011 1:04am

So with DB keeping the northern leg of route 11, in my mind I think it'd be best to extend the new 13 down Collins Avenue instead of Home Farm Road (and previously as 13a via Griffith Avenue).

As this is currently the main entrance to DCU and with routes 3 & 104 both being removed from Collins Avenue (well by the proposals anyway) there'll be no bus route here. However this would undoubtedly create more customers for DB than Griffith Avenue ( e.g university and secondary school go'ers).

Do we really need several 'super' routes along the same sections of the same road and thus leaving more customers without a 'direct' bus route?

LXFlyer · 20-04-2011 9:50am

Devilman40k wrote: »

Read my post...I'm not talking about Stillorgan, my point is, as ND continues there is going to be a perception amongst many other Dubliners (rightly or wrongly) that the N11 corridor will get priority over anywhere else.

I have already heard it where I am, people have cottoned on to the fact that the service in the area is going to be reduced from 3 functioning routes to 1 and a half + an orbital route which will become ever more unreliable with its extension, all this without the alternative of Luas or Dart..and with a large and growing elderly population, but have mentioned (or got the perception) that the 46A hasn't been hit as hard .

I can picture a situation in 3-5 years time where we are complaining about high levels of traffic on Dublins roads where avg journey speeds return to those seen in the mid 1990's (not everywhere has access to a QBC). And when the question is asked hopefully someone will direct the answer at Dublin Bus and Network Direct

Devilman40k wrote: »

People who dont use it, don't care if its the busiest route in the city. My point is the perception that is given by reducing other areas by 50 - 100% and some not so much, I know the 46A has been affected..I no longer use it and drive instead (giving up my annual ticket in the process)

Perception is one thing and reality is another. Remember too that people in general hate change and we Irish have a consistent trait of moaning about any change. The reality is that every QBC is gaining and losing in this process. Each QBC will have at least one high frequency core route (possibly more in certain cases) while other services still operate at lower frequencies and still broadly serve the estates. The main losers tend to be the routes that have not been carrying the passengers. Some people will have to walk further than they do already to/from the bus, but unfortunately I don't think that there is an alternative to this. The company simply cannot sustain the network as it stands - revenues are dropping faster than costs and there is no more money in the pot from government.

You are quite correct that the 46a was affected in that the original running times were too short, which seriously impacted on service reliability. Revised rosters were put in place three months ago that have addressed that issue. The same problem affected many other routes in phase 1 and this has finally been addressed now with the new rosters and timetables - however it took far too long to address. This, one would hope, will not be an issue that repeats itself in phase 2.

To put the changes to each QBC into context, on the N11 the key routes are the 39a, 46a and 145. The N11 lost the 10, 46b, 63 and 84 to/from the city. On the N3 the 39 and 39a have increased in frequency, backed up by the 37, 38/a and 70, while on the N4 there are more buses on the combined 25a/25b while the other services are now integrated with one another (26, 66/a/b, 67) in terms of departure times from Merrion Square eliminating the bunching and long gaps that were previously all too apparent.

I have to disagree with you regarding the orbital services. The extension of the orbital routes is long overdue - people need to be able to make these journeys right through the day. There may well still be provision for local services - perhaps for example some 76 journeys might still serve Ballyfermot while the majority continue to serve Blanchardstown - we'll have to wait and see what comes from the consultation process.

Already DB have been shown to be listening to customers by changing some of the original plans, e.g. the 40D will now operate via Mellowes Road and the N2 rather than through Finglas South, the northern half of route 11 is being retained. I think that we need to wait and see what the finalised plans are for each area and to see the timetables before we can pass a final judgement on this.

thomasj · 20-04-2011 12:00pm

Its a pity that some of the low frequency routes such as the 114 weren't looked at. This route can get busy at times!

In my opinion with network direct there was a chance to do something radical. For example, merge the 114 into the 175.

You could have dun laoghaire, blackrock, sandyford, dundrum, ballinteer, ticknock, lambs cross down to the m50 and towards tallaght.

Something different!

LXFlyer · 20-04-2011 12:04pm

Well the 175 is a good route I think - it's making use of the Green route for virtually its entirety which is a good thing given all the housing along it.

ArmaniJeanss · 20-04-2011 12:40pm

lxflyer wrote: »

On the N3 the 39 and 39a have increased in frequency, backed up by the 37, 38/a and 70

In the case of the 38A, being a 'back-up' seems to mean a previously successful route that is now unreliable and inefficent.

LXFlyer · 20-04-2011 12:44pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In the case of the 38A, being a 'back-up' seems to mean a previously successful route that is now unreliable and inefficent.

Have you tried it since the new timetable change?

We all know about the reliability problems prior to last weekend.

Just curious if the buses are now showing up when they are supposed to?

markpb · 20-04-2011 12:44pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well the 175 is a good route I think - it's making use of the Green route for virtually its entirety which is a good thing given all the housing along it.

What's the Green route?

LXFlyer · 20-04-2011 1:12pm

The Green Route is the road stretching from the base of the M50 flyover at Ballinteer (by the 16 terminus) to Firhouse Road at the Old Mill pub.

Specifically Brehon Field Road, Grange Road, Taylors Lane, Ballyboden Way, Scholarstown Road, St. Colmcille's Way, Killinniny Road.

ArmaniJeanss · 20-04-2011 2:03pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Have you tried it since the new timetable change?

We all know about the reliability problems prior to last weekend.

Just curious if the buses are now showing up when they are supposed to?

In fairness the mornings one I got, either the 38A at 8.36 or 8.56 from Damastown were always fairly reliable, even after phase 1.
I have to get the 8.36 now as the 8.56 is going the silly new route, and the 8.36 has been fine this week. I've also noticed that there has been no driver change at Parnell Sq, I don't know if this is pure fluke or a new policy.

Going home still looks a bit ropey : To be honest I don't know the timetable anymore as there seemed little point in knowing it as it was so random.
However I do use the RTPI app from the other thread and I've seen where the 38A doesn't turn up and disappears from the system, or conversely where there is no 38A scheduled and suddently one is listed as being 1 minute away. I'm guessing in the latter case that this is an earlier departure running late.

Paddy Orwell · 20-04-2011 2:23pm

Lxflyer, i think what ArmaniJeanss is getting at is that there was a logical 38a service that bypassed Blanch village that was very popular and full by the time it reached the N3 (as it had been serving 5 well populated estates Corduff, Waterville, Warrenstown, Castlecurragh and Ladyswell) and now this is being reversed so that more buses can go to the Blanch village which is already served by the 38, 39 and of course the train station. It seems that D15 south is doing well out of this, which is fine if the Minister for Transport wants to dash home quickly after a Dail vote, but Blanch north continues to be the poor relation of the transport system. I was stunned when the Bus driver announced the change a couple of days ago and shook my head in disbelief. Yes, there are a few 38b buses at peak time in the morning but that is it. The long trip home (due to the lack of bus lane on the Navan Road) has just got longer for the heavily populated Blanch North/Mulhuddart commuters. Completely illogical.

ArmaniJeanss · 20-04-2011 2:31pm

Paddy Orwell wrote: »

Lxflyer, i think what ArmaniJeanss is getting at is that there was a logical 38a service that bypassed Blanch village that was very popular and full by the time it reached the N3 (as it had been serving 5 well populated estates Corduff, Waterville, Warrenstown, Castlecurragh and Ladyswell) and now this is being reversed so that more buses can go to the Blanch village which is already served by the 38, 39 and of course the train station.

It seems that D15 south is doing well out of this, which is fine if the Minister for Transport wants to dash home quickly after a Dail vote, but Blanch north continues to be the poor relation of the transport system. I was stunned when the Bus driver announced the change a couple of days ago and shook my head in disbelief.

Yes, there are a few 38b buses at peak time in the morning but that is it. The long trip home (due to the lack of bus lane on the Navan Road) has just got longer for the heavily populated Blanch North/Mulhuddart commuters. Completely illogical.

Exactly this. As I said last week on the 38/A thread....

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I got the 9.10PM 38A tonight, and purely for lols and nostalgia value I stopwatch timed it. It turned onto the N3 after Waterville and 1m 40sec later it was at the Auburn Avenue roundabout, utilizing the new road that bypasses the M50 roundabout. A road built to speed progress towards Dublin city centre, it took a small fortune and 24 months to build but it finally got there.

From next Sunday this same 38A bus will instead spend 20 minutes winding its way through Blanchardstown village, and will exit Blanch village 50 yards past the new road and head straight for the M50/N3 roundabout.

And that my friends, is progress NetworkDirect style.

LXFlyer · 20-04-2011 2:41pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In fairness the mornings one I got, either the 38A at 8.36 or 8.56 from Damastown were always fairly reliable, even after phase 1.
I have to get the 8.36 now as the 8.56 is going the silly new route, and the 8.36 has been fine this week. I've also noticed that there has been no driver change at Parnell Sq, I don't know if this is pure fluke or a new policy.

Going home still looks a bit ropey : To be honest I don't know the timetable anymore as there seemed little point in knowing it as it was so random.
However I do use the RTPI app from the other thread and I've seen where the 38A doesn't turn up and disappears from the system, or conversely where there is no 38A scheduled and suddently one is listed as being 1 minute away. I'm guessing in the latter case that this is an earlier departure running late.

The reason I am asking is that the reliability was the fundamental problem - the running times outbound in the early morning were too short, meaning that buses were not getting to the outer terminus when they should.

This in turn meant that jaysoose and everyone else in Mulhuddart, Corduff and Waterville were suffering with buses either not showing up or having to work short to College Street to make up time.

This *should* now be fixed since the weekend due to changes in the running time.

The real question is whether you are still experiencing the same problems since Sunday last when the new rosters came into effect. There is little point in basing comments now on the old rosters as they frankly were not fit for purpose and are history.

As for the detour via the Village - have you taken a 38a since the change and if so how long did it take? I'm more interested in accurate reports on this rather than assumptions? With respect I very much doubt at 9pm on a Sunday that it would take 20 minutes.

I would tend to agree though with Paddy Orwell - I was somewhat surprised that the 38b does not operate in the evening peak in both directions. But maybe that may yet happen....

Paddy Orwell · 20-04-2011 2:51pm

Lxflyer, you are unlikely to get me taking the 38a now via blanch village as i don't have time to experiment, i have to get to and from work so i will be driving to the train station and jettisoning the bus. My guess is at peak times that it will add 10-15 mins and more if there is a tailback at the snugboro junction as there can often be at peak times in the evening coming from the village. There is a more fundamental question as to why it is going there in the first place and why Blanch north/mulhuddart is the poor relation in the transport system.

ArmaniJeanss · 20-04-2011 2:54pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The real question is whether you are still experiencing the same problems since Sunday last when the new rosters came into effect. There is little point in basing comments now on the old rosters as they frankly were not fit for purpose and are history.

Fair point. No problems that I can see in the mornings though as I said I've only got the 8.36 bus.

lxflyer wrote: »

As for the detour via the Village - have you taken a 38a since the change and if so how long did it take? I'm more interested in accurate reports on this rather than assumptions? With respect I very much doubt at 9pm on a Sunday that it would take 20 minutes.

I'd expect it to be in the order of 10 minutes at that time, there are 4 sets of traffic lights and 3 bus stops in Blanch village, then the lights at the m50 roundabout itself. But yep, I'll time it (from Waterville to Auburn Avenue) for definitiveness the next time I get the new 38a.

lxflyer wrote: »

I would tend to agree though with Paddy Orwell - I was somewhat surprised that the 38b does not operate in the evening peak in both directions. But maybe that may yet happen....

A tweak of the tweaks of the review, eh

Dublin Bus Network Review

Comments