Freeman/Strawman

Mahatma coat · 15-02-2011 3:43pm

yekahS wrote: »

Its far from a cop out. You wouldn't be so flippant if you lost a loved one due to someone speeding/drinkdriving etc. If you speed you put other road users at risk. Its not hysteria to suggest that those laws are in place to save lives, not generate revenue. The problem with only prosecuting when there is an "injured party" is it does nothing for prevention.

FYI A LOT of people have lost others to Drunk Drivers or Retards Racing in the wrong lane:( Th initial statement was about SEATBELTS, that's my point

When you live in a democracy you elect your leaders, who make the legislation for you. When you find that you disagree with the vast majority you have to accept the will of others, even if you disagree. Societies completely fail without law and order.

Yes, and the decisions of those people should reflect the will of the Majority of the Electorate, However as has been seen repeatedly THEY DONT

If you want to live in a society where the government doesn't 'foist' its laws on you, try Somalia. No pesky elected government interfering in your life there.

Oh I want to live in a country where the Rule of law is respected, I dont want to live in a World where the Police fine you just to fulfill some arbitrary Quota

thecommander · 15-02-2011 5:41pm

Suppose I start it off.

Has anyone got an example of an actual case where this routine has gotten them off?

Think we went thru a few thousand posts in the last thread where no one could provide anything other than a bit of hearsay and jumbled up youtube clips.

phantom_lord · 15-02-2011 5:54pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Point being while you may be right or wrong about the freeman idea you don't know enough to make an informed decision.

Don't be ridiculous. The vast majority of the content of that freeman site revolves explicitly around trying to get out of obligations.

Brown Bomber · 15-02-2011 7:33pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous. The vast majority of the content of that freeman site revolves explicitly around trying to get out of obligations.

That may or may not be the case. I don't know and you haven't shown as such.

This is their mission statement. Which parts specifically do you object to?

"Tír na Saor aims to provide information to those wishing to empower themselves with the knowledge necessary to stand up for and exercise their ancient rights. We aim to educate ourselves and others on the true nature and purpose of Law; how it applies to you and how to go about taking your life back.
We also recognise the importance of healthy and sustainable living, growing of food, permaculture, free and renewable energy, community spirit and spiritual growth.

We never advocate violence. Our philosophy is one of purely peaceful means, using knowledge to achieve our goals. We do not promote or condone violence, divisiveness or dishonourable behaviour. Do not ask others for advice legal or otherwise just discuss and learn.

We are purely trying to bring information to people so they can peacefully take back their lives, and take back their power . We also recognise that we each have a personal responsibility and a duty to ourselves and future generations.

Tír na Saor is about joining together, pooling skills, knowledge and resources to form a community of dispersed yet united Free Men and Women living on, from and for the land, maximising freedom and abundance for as many souls as possible.

Anything that opposes the values outlined in this mission statement naturally belongs somewhere else…"

In any case what is the issue you have with "trying to get out of obligations" if it is considered that the obligations are injust?

For example do you take issue with Rosa Parkes not giving up her seat for a white person?

Or this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nXT8lSnPQ

phantom_lord · 15-02-2011 8:01pm

I think you're just being deliberately obtuse here. You're comparing Tiananmen Square and Rosa Parks to fare dodging on public transport, defaulting on bank loans and bills and avoiding speeding fines? Seriously?

That may or may not be the case. I don't know and you haven't shown as such.

This is their mission statement. Which parts specifically do you object to?

I'm not interested in their mission statement when the vast majority of the content of the site and examples given here on this forum of people basically trying to get out of money owed for services provided. Whatever bizarre view they have of how the law functions it's undeniable that they're just welching on obligations and are petty immoral criminals.

What are you expecting me to show you? I've already explained how I came to that conclusion and if you look at their site you'll see it for yourself too.

Torakx · 15-02-2011 9:36pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

I think you're just being deliberately obtuse here. You're comparing Tiananmen Square and Rosa Parks to fare dodging on public transport, defaulting on bank loans and bills and avoiding speeding fines? Seriously?

I'm not interested in their mission statement when the vast majority of the content of the site and examples given here on this forum of people basically trying to get out of money owed for services provided. Whatever bizarre view they have of how the law functions it's undeniable that they're just welching on obligations and are petty immoral criminals.

What are you expecting me to show you? I've already explained how I came to that conclusion and if you look at their site you'll see it for yourself too.

Well lets take Racism during the times of Rosa Parks for an example.
During that time it was seen in general as socially acceptable to be a complete racist.
During our times it seems socially acceptable to give away all your rights to an autority figure and create random contracts without even realising it.

So just because a person takes issue over the legality of their loan and is therefore going against societies habits doesnt mean they are wrong.
Infact alot of people standing up for their rights against such protests as yours have been doign so for a cause that has now been accepted and praised by people who in that time would have been beligerent towards that ideology!
Now there might have eben some black people back in those times taking advantage and trying to grab the front seats...but after such oppresion i would not blame them..as today people are pushing back about their basic human rights as well as other sneaky cluases the financial markets have been able to put passed the average joe.
Its not to say they are always right.
But at least consider that life doenst have to be right or wrong or to stay as it is to be so.
Society evolves and so are our rights be they lessened or expanded.
This is just part of that evolution and i think to totally slate the whole idea instead of take what you may from it is a little "racist" if you understand what i mean by that analogy.

lol
All rights reserved.
Im not a racist to those who will want to twist my words.Get the analogy or dont comment please

robtri · 15-02-2011 10:09pm

as a freeman... what gives u the right to travelling on the luas for free????

Brown Bomber · 15-02-2011 11:02pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

I think you're just being deliberately obtuse here. You're comparing Tiananmen Square and Rosa Parks to fare dodging on public transport, defaulting on bank loans and bills and avoiding speeding fines?

Well no. In fairness what you've described is not the sum total of the freeman movement which as far as I can tell is a form of Libertarian Socialism.

What I was comparing was people challenging accepted norms and regulations on moral grounds and not accepting the way it is simply because it's the way it is. If genuine, this moral-based challenge is to be commended IMO regardless of whether I agree that the challenge to authority is justified or not because I don't have the casting vote beyond my own opinion on what is or isn't moral and neither do you.

FWIW I can see the problems that people have with the idea, and I'd like to emphasise that I have a very superficial understanding of the topic but it seems to me to be a loose collobaration of anti-authoritarian types who want a take-take relationship with society. I'm not convinced if this position however; part of me sees a group who wish to be part of society and obey it's rules, fulfill their social contracts BUT demands that the law of the land is not used as a tool of oppression by the state/corporations which is of course not the reason rules and regulations exist.

Having said that, for me society now with all it's trappings - roads, hospitals, police, military, welfare systems etc is favourable, by far is preferable than any Mad Max scenario which I am sure would develop if a freeman type utopia came about.

I'd see it developing along the lines of Christiania in Copenhagen with drug wars and murders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

Though I don't doubt that the ideals behind the movement are overwhelmingly genuine.

phantom_lord wrote: »

I'm not interested in their mission statement when the vast majority of the content of the site and examples given here on this forum of people basically trying to get out of money owed for services provided. Whatever bizarre view they have of how the law functions it's undeniable that they're just welching on obligations and are petty immoral criminals.

So that makes Rosa Parkes a petty moral criminal?...

I think if you were truly objective you would try to look beyond this element. By your logic ALL football aupporters are hooligans, ALL priests are paedophiles etc. Simply not true.

phantom_lord wrote: »

What are you expecting me to show you? I've already explained how I came to that conclusion and if you look at their site you'll see it for yourself too.

I had hoped that you could share with me WHY you could speak in such absolute terms in your dismissal of the freeman ideals. To be fair you've only offered vague references and generalisations, which even if they were to be confirmed would only be reflective of a sub-set of the movement itself.

Mahatma coat · 16-02-2011 5:27am

there seems to be both a Lack of understanding about the Nature of the Freeman concept and an eagerness to highlight ''percieved'' Wrongs amongst some of the posters here.

Being a Freeman as I have said previously is About Upholding your Social contract, not Shirking it.

If I want to use a train, I have to pay for the use of that train, Fare evaders are not in keeping with the Freeman spirit. Why you think they are is beyant me.

Bank loans should be entered into with both eyes open, most of us can see that there were predatory loans given out a few years ago to people who couldnt afford them, as a freeman you should have enough knowledge of the situation to avoid these, Once you sign the contract you Are comitted to That deal, its up to you to mke sure ytou got the best deal you could.

Now its on the topic of Speeding Fines etc that the situation becomes more interesting, as Clearly this is mostly just a Revenue Raising exercise for the ZoG, thats where being a freeman starts, when you se an obvious inequity in the system it is Your duty to Fight until its changed.

phantom_lord · 16-02-2011 2:55pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I had hoped that you could share with me WHY you could speak in such absolute terms in your dismissal of the freeman ideals.

It's very easy. Let's take a sample of what sort of people are trying to use this freeman nonsense.

From the last thread we had videos from:

A man trying to drive around on public roads without paying road tax
A man trying to get off a speeding ticket after breaking the law
A man trying to get off a fine after parking illegally.

Let's take a look at a summary of the first page of threads in the success forum and the courts forum of the freeman website:

drug possession
2 public order offences
3 parking tickets
Driving without tax and insurance
One driving without a licence
2 speeding fine
council tax
someone who doesn't want to do jury duty (interesting that he's quite content to claim the dole, but suddenly is a freeman when something is required of him)

Now which of these is the modern Rosa Parks?

Brown Bomber · 16-02-2011 8:28pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

It's very easy. Let's take a sample of what sort of people are trying to use this freeman nonsense.

From the last thread we had videos from:

A man trying to drive around on public roads without paying road tax
A man trying to get off a speeding ticket after breaking the law
A man trying to get off a fine after parking illegally.

Let's take a look at a summary of the first page of threads in the success forum and the courts forum of the freeman website:

drug possession
2 public order offences
3 parking tickets
Driving without tax and insurance
One driving without a licence
2 speeding fine
council tax
someone who doesn't want to do jury duty (interesting that he's quite content to claim the dole, but suddenly is a freeman when something is required of him)

Now which of these is the modern Rosa Parks?

Haha!

What exactly where you expecting from the "court cases" section?...

"Help! I've recieved a summons for taking care of the elderly"

or

"Help! arrested for finding stray puppies loving homes"...ffs man. :pac:

Let's take a look at a summary of the first page of threads in the success forum and the courts forum of the freeman website:

Yes. Let's!
http://tirnasaor.com/forum/categories/court-cases/listForCategory

Oh look! The first page is THE ONLY PAGE :eek:

It contains 9 posts ffs. This is what your judgement is based on?

1. Someone trying to get out of jury duty :eek::eek:

2. "As some of you may know in early 2010 my house was robbed and subsequently searched by Gardaí when they arrived, at which point they found my cannabis"

3."i was outside a takeaway having a ciggie on friday night and waiting to finish it to then go in and order some food. when a guard came over to me and asked me to leave and walk on away from him or he will arrest me i told him i am not a walking anywhere and i am living in a free country and he can not tell me where i can and can not stand he then warned me again and told me if i did not move he would arrest me i said you will arrest me what have i done wrong? what law have i broken? he then proceeded and mentioned some section act statute that i said i dont understand too with that he put me in handcuffs and brought me to the station"

phantom_lord · 16-02-2011 8:38pm

Every singe freeman related issue I've ever seen has been in that vein, and interestingly contrary to the sites mission statement all of those petty criminals received support from the users of the site.

phantom_lord wrote: »

Interesting that this freeman stuff seems to revolve mainly around trying to get out of fines and other obligations. Honourable bunch.

Are you really disputing the validity of this statement? Because it appears that that's exactly what that site is dedicated to.

Any chance you could show me some example of Rosa Parks type freemen plz because I can't see any there?

Jimmy the Wheel · 16-02-2011 8:46pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Are you really disputing the validity of this statement? Because it appears that that's exactly what that site is dedicated to.

Any chance you could show me some example of Rosa Parks type freemen plz because I can't see any there?

I've already linked to those courageous drugs campaigners in Scotland, in post 23.

Or does it have to be in an Irish context?

phantom_lord · 16-02-2011 8:58pm

Jimmy the Wheel wrote: »

I've already linked to those courageous drugs campaigners in Scotland, in post 23.

Or does it have to be in an Irish context?

courageous drugs campaigners? they were two chaps caught producing and supplying cannabis. hardly rosa parks is it?

Jimmy the Wheel · 16-02-2011 9:05pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

courageous drugs campaigners? they were two chaps caught producing and supplying cannabis. hardly rosa parks is it?

The two chaps who wrote letters to the authorities to say they were going to grow cannabis, in order to challenge the laws using freeman status, and who have now relinquished their freedom in the fight for the same.

Yes, those two.

phantom_lord · 16-02-2011 9:11pm

So people mainly use freeman theory for theft of services, non payment of taxes and fines, public order offences, as well as drug offences? Glad we could get that all cleared up.

Still can't see the moral crusaders that Brown Bomber seems to be talking about.

Jimmy the Wheel · 16-02-2011 9:25pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

So people mainly use freeman theory for theft of services, non payment of taxes and fines, public order offences, as well as drug offences? Glad we could get that all cleared up.

Still can't see the moral crusaders that Brown Bomber seems to be talking about.

So, people shouldn't be free to consume the drugs of their choice?

And all taxes and fines are justifiable and morally upstanding?

Brown Bomber · 16-02-2011 11:42pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Every singe freeman related issue I've ever seen has been in that vein, and interestingly contrary to the sites mission statement all of those petty criminals received support from the users of the site.

Are you really disputing the validity of this statement? Because it appears that that's exactly what that site is dedicated to.

Any chance you could show me some example of Rosa Parks type freemen plz because I can't see any there?

(sorry for not finishing that post earlier I hadn't realised the Arsenal game was starting).

Can't you see that your applying the same reasoning to the freemen as racists apply to their victims?

Your tarring all freemen worldwide and the freeman ideology itself with the same brush as (an anonymous, faceless) someone(s) who posts on a low-traffic Irish forum.

Worse, to exaggerate your point you intentionally exclude 12/14 forums on a site which is representative of Ireland only and whose posters are no more representative of the sites public forum than you or I are able to speak on behalf of boards.ie here.

EVEN THEN...You were disingenuous ( or horribly mistaken at best) by proclaiming that these legion of no-good-criminals were taken from only the front page of these public forums; when in fact there was only 1 page of "criminals" - 9 threads in fact. Total.

You've put yourself forward as a critic of the freeman movement but haven't been able to offer a coherent argument as to why you actually are so dismissive of them.

It's rather strange.

I'm sure your not arsed one way or the other what I think but I personally am/was open to persuasion one way or the other but you actually have no argument at all as far as I can tell.

By the way this is why I had brought Rosa Parkes up.

In any case what is the issue you have with "trying to get out of obligations" if it is considered that the obligations are injust?

For example do you take issue with Rosa Parkes not giving up her seat for a white person?

You have a habit of ignoring every question unfortunately but as can be clearly seen

.

Any chance you could show me some example of Rosa Parks type freemen

is a strawman.

By your logic the ENTIRE civil rights movement was a sham if a couple of activists fiddled their income tax returns or done 60 mph in a 70 zone.

Brown Bomber · 16-02-2011 11:44pm

btw just read my own post comes across as a little abrasive, not intentional so please ignore.

phantom_lord · 17-02-2011 12:13am

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You've put yourself forward as a critic of the freeman movement but haven't been able to offer a coherent argument as to why you actually are so dismissive of them.

you actually have no argument at all as far as I can tell

Every single example I've come across has been someone who at the very least is a petty criminal. You're the one with no argument, the evidence directly shows what you're saying is untrue.

By your logic the ENTIRE civil rights movement was a sham if a couple of activists fiddled their income tax returns or done 60 mph in a 70 zone.

No, by my logic if I go look up the forum of a group of people and every thread on the site and youtube video of them is about them being racists I would come to the conclusion they're a racist group, even if someone man on the internet tried to tell me the opposite with nothing to back it up.

You keep talking about how freemen and some honourable group of people but everything I've seen between here, youtube, and the freeman site is exactly the opposite.

I'm still waiting for you to show me example of people using this freeman stuff for something that isn't immoral criminal activity.

phantom_lord · 17-02-2011 12:18am

In any case what is the issue you have with "trying to get out of obligations" if it is considered that the obligations are injust?

For example do you take issue with Rosa Parkes not giving up her seat for a white person?

No, but I would have a problem if she didn't pay her bus fare and tried to claim it was because she was a freeman.

seannash · 17-02-2011 12:23am

I think any side of this argumen should stop making comparisons to Rosa Parks.

Its chalk and cheese,no comparison should be made.

again ill ask,do freemen avail of dole,child welfare,hospitals etc
What is the stance on this?
If they claim freeman status should they have any rights to these services?

phantom_lord · 17-02-2011 12:26am

seannash wrote: »

I think any side of this argumen should stop making comparisons to Rosa Parks.

Its chalk and cheese,no comparison should be made.

again ill ask,do freemen avail of dole,child welfare,hospitals etc
What is the stance on this?
If they claim freeman status should they have any rights to these services?

No, they're only freeman when it comes to welching or engaging in criminal activities.

Torakx · 17-02-2011 2:13am

seannash wrote: »

I think any side of this argumen should stop making comparisons to Rosa Parks.

Its chalk and cheese,no comparison should be made.

again ill ask,do freemen avail of dole,child welfare,hospitals etc
What is the stance on this?
If they claim freeman status should they have any rights to these services?

They have no choice in alot of cases.The system is integrated into society so much that to live outside it is crippling because of the system itself.
This is one issue among many that causes this to not be so black and white as some appear to make it out to be.
For example you cant ride your horse across the fields to get from dublin to cork without stumbling onto a road or a fence.
This is just society getting bigger and civilisation making its mark everywhere.
The issue freemen have is the lengths at which the "system" will go when alot of the time it is not needed and sometimes it is abusive.
There is a place inbetween where harmony can be found i think but the legal society are not happy with just that and so people are fighting back in many different ways.
I must point out also one reason theyare not happy with the status quo is because f the interest this country owes is unpayable and so they need to continue to make revenue to keep up with this pyramid scheme.

Its a form of oppression and the poverty stricken are in many ways being controlled because of lack of options that are built into this system.
I only touch on some obvious stuff.Half of the rest i have forgotten or not looked into myself.
There are greens all around tallaght estates.Im guessing if you try to make a community gardens for growing food you will be arrested.
Money that could be gone to improving the community and making a life for kids instead goes on security cameras al over the place which dont do anything to help.
Theres alot of examples im sure.

Also i think the Rosa Parks example is a fairly good comparison.
Peoples rights are being taken away and they are standing up and making some noise about it.
This happened before about skin colour and at the time it was seen as ludicrous to do so.
How anyone fails to see that i dont know.Maybe its because you dont see your rights being removed?
Like if you were white(comparison today = financially secure/ignorant of the law and your rights) back in those days maybe it was easier to just leave it and say "oh theres nothing wrong,thats how its always been"

King Mob · 17-02-2011 2:34am

So using other people's land, services and property without payment and driving at high speed are rights now?

Also How can you "not have a choice" to go on the dole?

King Mob · 17-02-2011 2:49am

Torakx wrote: »

There are greens all around tallaght estates.Im guessing if you try to make a community gardens for growing food you will be arrested.

Because that land isn't yours and often it does not actually belong to the people in the estate.
I'd wager you wouldn't be as favourable to this freeman stuff if people start doing it on your land.

Torakx wrote: »

Money that could be gone to improving the community and making a life for kids instead goes on security cameras al over the place which dont do anything to help.

Then run for local government, or at the very least campaign for what you want.

Torakx wrote: »

Theres alot of examples im sure.

But there doesn't seem to be many forthcoming.

Mahatma coat · 17-02-2011 4:17am

I'm still waiting for you to show me example of people using this freeman stuff for something that isn't immoral criminal activity.

Immoral

:D:D:D:D:D

So YOU are the arbitrator of all things Moral, the Current legal system is Morally Bankrupt, It is Immoral to continue to lend support to this regieme.

Freemen want to see a Change in how trhe world works, we want to see a policve force and Justice system designed to protect the Rights of the people and Deal in Justice, however what we have is a revenue raising exercise with its own uniformed agents.

is that Morally right?

Mahatma coat · 17-02-2011 4:18am

oh and if you are a Freeman in the Brisbane region, you can use MY LAND to plant Food crops

uprising2 · 17-02-2011 6:21am

The way I see Freeman is men and women with a united ideology of living in harmony, in a free and just society, everybody "should" join in the betterment of their fellow man, money, stocks and shares, greed and the likes are not what makes the world go round contrary to popular belief.

If there were a fair system in place I would abide by it and I think the majority would, I would freely offer any skill or service I may be able to offer to whomever should need it, and recieve likewise from others, I would go to Mahatma's land (free ride of course;)) and grow some organic crops and various herbs and share my produce with mahatma, and the old lady down the road and the man at the side of the street with a begging board and a starving child in Africa, Asia, Europe, America or anywhere.

I see the current world system as wrong for a number of reasons, I won't go into them all now my post history would give an indication of what and where I see fault.

If I want to smoke a spliff I will (and at this point of posting I went outside and did just that, so anything after this point may ramble), if I want to mug and beat up an old lady I should be put down like the dog that I would be, I don't want thugs on any side of the legal divide allowed to be thugs, they should pay for their crime in a fair way, an eye for an eye kinda way, a hungry person shouldn't be arrested for stealing food, because food should be available to all, and before anybody says "we couldn't afford to feed everybody", I have never seen anybody eat paper,silver or gold.

The planet is heading into some deep sh1t, this system isn't doing anything to help it, only destroy it, in a little over 100 years we've managed to bring the world to it's knee's almost, and through the current system it's on course for one bad trainwreck sooner rather than later, the writings on the wall, whatever about climategate, the planet is being plundered and destroyed, animals, creatures great and small and becoming fewer and fewer...............Erm, sorry, I dont know where that was heading, but if I had a choice I would live in the land of the freeman instead of the land of greed and all the bad that comes with that.

For the record, my "land of the freeman" is a land where everybody pulls together, everybody does their fair share according to their abilities, I know it doesn't exist and probably never will, but maybe if a few thousand years ago a different mindset had emerged and people were not what they are (greedy bastards) and were more inclined towards humanity and living in harmony a better world could have been.

Anyway sorry about all that waffle, but it's nice to dream from time to time.

Mahatma coat · 17-02-2011 10:47am

theres no such thing as a Free Ride Uprising

if you came to my place you could get there by train, Trains cost Money.

Freeman/Strawman

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