Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Irish Rail strike days

Options
12467…21

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I'll take a photo for you next time. Believe me, outside of commuter traffic there is very little patronage Mon-Thurs and Saturdays.
    very odd time maybe but not a given. its irrelevant anyway as the trains will have to operate as there will be a return service

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #93
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    end of the road wrote: »
    very odd time maybe but not a given. its irrelevant anyway as the trains will have to operate as there will be a return service

    Statistically some of them are fairly vacuous both ways.


  • Options
    #94
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,142 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    end of the road wrote: »
    the strikers don't want your sympathy, or care whether one has sympathy for them or not, all they care about is resolving this to a satisfactory deal, we'd all do the same if we could. some unions accepting and others rejecting is good old democracy in action

    Maybe not but it'll be very difficult to have a strike for as long as they've planned if the general public are against them.


  • Options
    #95
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Heisenberg1 wrote: »
    That 7% rise is that the national wage agreement rise? And the cost cutting that was agreed was there not a part in that agreement that if IE finances deteriorated further pay cuts would be on the table?

    Losses arent completely natural tho. Government cut the subsidy after the agreement thus undermining it. The irony is if they reversed the subsidy cuts by €17mil it would get IR on a break even footing.


  • Options
    #96
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    This is more of a problem than most people realize.

    The reason your reserved seat can't be enforced? The reason that someone in a wheelchair needs to have passengers take them off the train (recent event in Landsdowne)? The reason a blind person is killed by a train last week? The reason "antisocial" behavior is rampant throughout the network?

    No/few frontline staff.

    People left the job on voluntary severance and one guy now covers two or three peoples job on the one shift. People who were actually doing a job, not people sitting in a back office working "office hours" doing God knows what.

    To be fair, that has nothing to do with staff shortages plus you will get anti social behaviour regardless of how many new staff you hire.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Statistically some of them are fairly vacuous both ways.

    The only one i'd say with a few on would be the 8:04/8:08 (delete the wrong one ) non stop Connolly-Maynooth in the mornings. All the Sligo's and the Longford's are busy enough leaving Dublin.


  • Options
    #98
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I'll take a photo for you next time. Believe me, outside of commuter traffic there is very little patronage Mon-Thurs and Saturdays.

    Very little Paying passengers would be more accurate.


  • Options
    #99
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    But at least they are working and paying their fair share in taxes which in turn helps to keep the work shy in free travel.

    I agree but they have to reach a compromise, paying passengers are making the biggest contribution and staff should have to as well. Without passengers it excuse of staff paying taxes and bailing out the company will be gone as passengers can't take much more fare hikes. Yes they are increasing but are free travelings also increasing and passengers are not going to get a break until they make up the 16 million in losses.


  • Options
    #100
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Statistically some of them are fairly vacuous both ways.
    doesn't matter, the trains will have to operate as there will be a return service. there is no guarintee that the particular train with few passengers will have few passengers going back, a return service with few passengers could be operated by a different train, thats how it works

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #101
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Maybe not but it'll be very difficult to have a strike for as long as they've planned if the general public are against them.

    not at all, the general publics opinion doesn't matter in these situations , this is simply about resolving a dispute and this is the last tool in the box, i'd be surprised if there isn't some agreement reached either before or after the strike

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    To be fair, that has nothing to do with staff shortages plus you will get anti social behaviour regardless of how many new staff you hire.

    Actually having staff in the stations DOES have an effect. Having even one man there will put potential gurriers off because if they act the maggot the guy there in the station will catch wind and tell em to either get lost or call the guards to eject them. With noone there they got free reign of the place and noone will notice therye there until something is wrecked and thats before taking into account potential travellers being intimidated out of going to the place.

    As for the guy who got stranded in howth jct and had to be helped off the train thats the issue nailed in the head. Noone manning the place becase of lack of staff and equipment locked up because of gurriers wrecking/stealing them.

    While not confirmed I heard from one or two people Raheny was unmanned the day that poor woman got run over by the train. If thats turns out to be true that would be another reason why you shouldnt have stations unmanned.


  • Options
    #103
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    end of the road wrote: »
    not at all, the general publics opinion doesn't matter in these situations , this is simply about resolving a dispute and this is the last tool in the box, i'd be surprised if there isn't some agreement reached either before or after the strike

    No chance of it beforehand Franks fecking off on holidays sums up Managements attitude to the workers ie. Go strike I couldnt give a toss.
    As for after unless they back off on the pay cuts and the goverment stops playing politics I cant see anything but an escalation happening.

    As for the public most people seem to understand the situation much as its an inconvenience but can see we got little other option but to stand up for ourselves.


  • Options
    #104
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    No chance of it beforehand Franks fecking off on holidays sums up Managements attitude to the workers ie. Go strike I couldnt give a toss.

    He is entitled to a holiday, its not as if unions are in the mood for talks so what the problem. He wouldn't be heading up the talks and there is such things as conference calls.

    I think I will need a holiday if I have to listen to the NBRU much longer.


  • Options
    #105
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    He is entitled to a holiday, its not as if unions are in the mood for talks so what the problem. He wouldn't be heading up the talks and there is such things as conference calls.

    I think I will need a holiday if I have to listen to the NBRU much longer.

    Everyones entitled to a holiday but when your the head of a company and you basically go off on holidays at the time right up to an impending strike your triggering by unilateral action it looks like you dont give a fiddelers about either the company the customers or the staff. I mean if this was the minister of transport doing this people would be ripping the piss outta him for it.


  • Options
    #106
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Infini2 wrote: »
    Everyones entitled to a holiday but when your the head of a company and you basically go off on holidays at the time right up to an impending strike your triggering by unilateral action it looks like you dont give a fiddelers about either the company the customers or the staff. I mean if this was the minister of transport doing this people would be ripping the piss outta him for it.

    It looks bad but remember these pay cuts were due to take effect from Feb, June and now August and that's this year alone. Not forgetting about last year. Should he cancel a holiday which he booked in advance. I'm sure if unions were serious about talks he would come back but they are no interested. What can he do here or abroad? As I already said communication is very easy and being on holiday has only given unions more air time to complain.

    The staff don't give a fiddelers about the passengers but that's fine?

    BTW the minister for transport is on his holidays to but not outside Ireland, what is the difference?


  • Options
    #107
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well I think it's a bit more real than that.

    It's a case of whether the company survives or not.

    That requires everyone to unfortunately make some sacrifice.

    As I said above, the subsidy cuts reflect lower passenger numbers, and the financial reality that this state finds itself in - just avoiding bankruptcy.

    I think that you'll find most people in the private sector have had to put up with far longer pay restraint than Dublin Bus is effecting.

    I think you will find that DB employees have put up with pay restraint since 2007, and that not all the cuts will be reversed in 19 months some are permanent cuts. See this attitude is exactly why it is so difficult to make a deal on anything in CIE because even when it is written down in black and white you can't trust them to deliver, the wording of the agreement is plain and simple it is not based on accumulated losses or balance sheets over multiple years.

    Why include a profitability clause if they have no intention of honoring it ? And you would be on here with plenty to say if it was the workers that were not honoring an agreement wouldn't you ?


  • Options
    #108
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Maybe not but it'll be very difficult to have a strike for as long as they've planned if the general public are against them.

    Greyhound workers are nearly 3 months on strike and have plenty of public sympathy but their strike is having little to no effect on bin collections so no one cares, general public for or against you matters little, what does matter is the pressure you can apply.


  • Options
    #109
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    I think you will find that DB employees have put up with pay restraint since 2007, and that not all the cuts will be reversed in 19 months some are permanent cuts. See this attitude is exactly why it is so difficult to make a deal on anything in CIE because even when it is written down in black and white you can't trust them to deliver, the wording of the agreement is plain and simple it is not based on accumulated losses or balance sheets over multiple years.

    Why include a profitability clause if they have no intention of honoring it ? And you would be on here with plenty to say if it was the workers that were not honoring an agreement wouldn't you ?

    Perhaps it's because in the companies that I've worked in, everyone recognised the seriousness of the situation and that circumstances can and do change rapidly, and that what may have been agreed at one point may just not be economically viable any more. They appreciated that the companies would have to make cuts to ensure their long term survival.

    This country has just been on the verge of bankruptcy, there is damn all public money to spend, yet I'm reading here about people complaining about losing a 7% pay increase???

    I've worked for two companies during the last ten years, one of which didn't survive due to the recession, despite the best efforts of all the staff and management, but where in both cases everyone realised that the status quo had to go out the window for the companies to have any chance of survival.

    So as someone who at one stage lost his job due to the economic conditions of this country, you'll perhaps forgive me if I get somewhat frustrated by this "we were promised this, we were promise that" attitude. The last seven years have been anything but normal conditions for companies to operate in and they have to adapt to those circumstances as they arise.

    I accept your frustration at having to experience a pay cut, but there are many others out there who didn't even have that choice.


  • Options
    #110
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,142 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    cdebru wrote: »
    Greyhound workers are nearly 3 months on strike and have plenty of public sympathy but their strike is having little to no effect on bin collections so no one cares, general public for or against you matters little, what does matter is the pressure you can apply.

    Greyhound doesn't effect the company anywhere near Irish Rail does.


  • Options
    #111
    may06
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭may06


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Statistically some of them are fairly vacuous both ways.

    Show us the statistics?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I'll take a photo for you next time. Believe me, outside of commuter traffic there is very little patronage Mon-Thurs and Saturdays.

    Believe you? I believe you have an axe to grind against the railways for some reason, that's what I believe. If the Sligo line etc ad nauseum was removed, would anyone be a cent better off through income taxes? It never happened in the fifties and sixties with mass closures. Why would it happen now, unless our long standing coterie of Ideological libertarians got a nerdgasm from it. Those with an interest in private buses and toll roads, now that's another matter.


  • Options
    #113
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    This aspect has never really made sense to me.

    Less passengers=less revenue=less subsidy

    More passengers=more revenue=more subsidy

    No it doesn't make sense and is not the model the NTA are offering to private companies who tender for bus routes, they will be paid on the basis of kilometers/serviced so no one travels or the buses are full they still get paid the same amount, unlike the model that CIE is expected to operate where the staff are expected to subsidise the companies services.


  • Options
    #114
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Perhaps it's because in the companies that I've worked in, everyone recognised the seriousness of the situation and that circumstances can and do change rapidly, and that what may have been agreed at one point may just not be economically viable any more. They appreciated that the companies would have to make cuts to ensure their long term survival.

    This country has just been on the verge of bankruptcy, there is damn all public money to spend, yet I'm reading here about people complaining about losing a 7% pay increase???

    I've worked for two companies during the last ten years, one of which didn't survive due to the recession, despite the best efforts of all the staff and management, but where in both cases everyone realised that the status quo had to go out the window for the companies to have any chance of survival.

    So as someone who at one stage lost his job due to the economic conditions of this country, you'll perhaps forgive me if I get somewhat frustrated by this "we were promised this, we were promise that" attitude. The last seven years have been anything but normal conditions for companies to operate in and they have to adapt to those circumstances as they arise.

    I accept your frustration at having to experience a pay cut, but there are many others out there who didn't even have that choice.

    While I accept your frustration at having lost a job, what has that got to do with anything ?

    You are avoiding the question and engaging in whataboutery, a deal was made, and at the time the deal was made the company was profitable despite assurances to the contrary, so these are not unforseen circumstances these are seen and known circumstances the people signing the company up to that deal knew the state of the companies finances and made a promise they had no intention of keeping, and of course the unions made a deal they had no intention of holding the company to.
    Which if you go back to the time is exactly what I said at the time the unions and the companies are in cahoots with each other which is why the unions can't deliver their members because they aren't trusted either.

    The current IR strike is the same, it is about the unions and the company working together to get the workers to agree, hence strikes and breaks this will follow the same the first 2 days will go ahead then the LC will intervene in time to prevent the next ones and bounce the staff into a deal after they have lost money.


    IE cannot legally change the contract unilaterally with their staff, it is contract law, and why the government backed down with the health executives getting bonus top up payments, remember they said they have a contract nothing they can do without opening themselves up to legal action for breach of contract. So why is a health chiefs contract protected by contract law but IR staff who have unions with barristers etc have to lose wages through strike to protect their contracts ????


  • Options
    #115
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Greyhound doesn't effect the company anywhere near Irish Rail does.

    What are you trying to say ?

    Greyhound workers on strike doesn't affect the company? Correct so even though they have public sympathy it will not help them because their strike is having no impact on the company or its customers, so that tells you it is not sympathy or public support that wins a strike it is impact and pressure you can apply.
    So nonsense about IR workers not having public support is not only unproven it is irrelevant.


  • Options
    #116
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    While I accept your frustration at having lost a job, what has that got to do with anything ?

    You are avoiding the question and engaging in whataboutery, a deal was made, and at the time the deal was made the company was profitable despite assurances to the contrary, so these are not unforseen circumstances these are seen and known circumstances the people signing the company up to that deal knew the state of the companies finances and made a promise they had no intention of keeping, and of course the unions made a deal they had no intention of holding the company to.
    Which if you go back to the time is exactly what I said at the time the unions and the companies are in cahoots with each other which is why the unions can't deliver their members because they aren't trusted either.

    The current IR strike is the same, it is about the unions and the company working together to get the workers to agree, hence strikes and breaks this will follow the same the first 2 days will go ahead then the LC will intervene in time to prevent the next ones and bounce the staff into a deal after they have lost money.


    IE cannot legally change the contract unilaterally with their staff, it is contract law, and why the government backed down with the health executives getting bonus top up payments, remember they said they have a contract nothing they can do without opening themselves up to legal action for breach of contract. So why is a health chiefs contract protected by contract law but IR staff who have unions with barristers etc have to lose wages through strike to protect their contracts ????

    The "losing my job" was after we (as a staff and management) tried everything to keep the company afloat. What I'm reading here is people talking about two sides, management and workers, and no one seems to be talking about the company and it's long term survival.

    I'm not going to continue discussing it with you, save to say that my point was that in the companies I worked in we (the staff) realised that whatever promises had been made weren't going to be able to be delivered, because doing so would render the company insolvent, and adjusted our expectations accordingly.

    All I'm reading here frankly is complete inflexibility.


  • Options
    #117
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    so the strike this weekend is almost 100% now?


  • Options
    #118
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    km79 wrote: »
    so the strike this weekend is almost 100% now?



    I don't think there is any "almost" about it.


  • Options
    #119
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    The NTA have now created a page with advice on how to get around during the strike and details of private operators and extra services.

    http://www.transportforireland.ie/rail-strike/


  • Options
    #120
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The "losing my job" was after we (as a staff and management) tried everything to keep the company afloat. What I'm reading here is people talking about two sides, management and workers, and no one seems to be talking about the company and it's long term survival.

    I'm not going to continue discussing it with you, save to say that my point was that in the companies I worked in we (the staff) realised that whatever promises had been made weren't going to be able to be delivered, because doing so would render the company insolvent, and adjusted our expectations accordingly.

    All I'm reading here frankly is complete inflexibility.

    What is missing from your anecdote is the shareholder, if the shareholders in the company you are talking about were directing the company to gives its products or services for free to a huge portion of the companies customer base but not actually recompensing the company for doing this would you think the responsibility for saving the company rests with the workers or management or that the shareholder is actually the one dragging the company down? Would you have taken pay cut and more pay cuts and worsening of your terms and conditions whole the shareholder not just continued to act in this way but actually gave more of the product or services away for free but didn't pay any thing more to the company ?

    Or would you say hang on a minute we are making sacrifices here trying to save the company and the shareholder is just taking advantage this has to stop we can't keep taking pay cuts and subsiding the shareholders generosity? Of course it wouldnt happen a normal company because shareholders wouldn't be allowed to do that so your comparisons with what happens in wherever you worked are invalid.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,142 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    cdebru wrote: »
    What are you trying to say ?

    Greyhound workers on strike doesn't affect the company? Correct so even though they have public sympathy it will not help them because their strike is having no impact on the company or its customers, so that tells you it is not sympathy or public support that wins a strike it is impact and pressure you can apply.
    So nonsense about IR workers not having public support is not only unproven it is irrelevant.

    I meant to say country not company.

    Irish Rail striking will effect a huge amount of people throughout the country both employers and employees too.

    Once the strike starts it'll be the first item on the news, front page on the newspapers, and feature regularly on The Last Word, The Right Hook etc. If the public are against the strikers this will all be negative news and be alot harder on them than if it was positive news.


Advertisement