Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

cul beag · 15-03-2016 1:23am

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I've gone beyond the point of despair, so instead I find it quite amusing at the consternation over a league game. No matter what angle you look at it it's funny, most pertinently the fact that we won the prior 3 and the result was irrelevant really.

But I think the thing I'm enjoying most is the hypocrisy in those that are most damning in their criticism of the team and tactics especially would have said after the first three wins "we can't get ahead of ourselves it's only the league".

We can't get behind ourselves either it seems.

God forbid we should be negative in our submissions after a poor display.

tomwaterford · 15-03-2016 1:36am

cul beag wrote: »

God forbid we should be negative in our submissions after a poor display.

It was a pure terrible display tbh

Followed on from a somewhat lucky win v tipp (last min 65 a point up and tipp try to work a goal???)

But to say play tradionally/revert back to Justin McCarthy tactics (??) when no other team is doing it in hurling at the min is throwing a slight wobbler

As IMO a 2 man full forward line is the realistic prospect....as this is closest to their strengths to play bombing high ball after high ball in on top of forwards for kk backs to win each time (let's be realistic its kk we should be aiming to beat) like teams are doing last 10+ years is stupid....look back to tipp 09/10 fast quick low ball and an absolute frenetic work rate is what's needed....

I'm pure sick of going to see croke park seeing waterford playing great and losing...

robopaddy2 · 15-03-2016 2:00am

Beat Galway next weekend and this lacklustre performance will be all forgotten about. This defeat will hopefully do us more good than harm in the long run. Do you judge us on the 10 good performances or one bad performance? It seems the latter is the perception here.
Don't know if the person who mentioned brining back Justin for the fancy expansive hurling is joking or not, but if that's what we want then its time to get that bridesmaids dress back out of the wardrobe and straight to the dry-cleaners

HatchetMan7 · 15-03-2016 4:19am

letsseehere14 wrote: »

I don't want to sound harsh as an outsider but perhaps last year was a little too much too soon for Waterford. No doubt they are up there in the top 4 now but if memory serves me correctly ye grabbed a draw against Limerick in the last minute of the league opener. Grabbed a last minute win against a Tipp team missing a huge number of defenders in the league semi and played a poor cork side to win it. A poor cork side again in the Munster semi before being, in my opinion, easily beaten by Tipp and Kilkenny.
On another day or days, these are games Waterford could have lost and it would have been an average year in all. Fine lines. But it highlights the gap between success and failure.
Now Waterford did win those matches in the league and fair play to them. Just trying to highlight that although ye are closer to the big 2 or 3, ye aren't that far ahead of the rest either.

If Limerick and Clare get their act together this year they are not far off any team including Kilkenny. I would say that a Waterford V Clare and Waterford V Limerick game would be pretty much a 50/50 game whereas Kilkenny beat us last year by 6 points and to be honest we never looked like winning that game. But Kilkenny aren't anywhere near as strong as they were a few years ago. When they were at their best they had subs that were better than one or two of their starting 15 nowadays. So the gap has closed considerably and i expect a lot of close games this year but if you want to win the all ireland this year you'll still have to go through Kilkenny first as they are the bench mark.
Most of the positive talk about Waterford hurling on this forum is more about the potential that this team has more so than what we are showing at the moment.

mountgomery burns · 15-03-2016 9:02am

cul beag wrote: »

God forbid we should be negative in our submissions after a poor display.

Absolutely criticize the peformance. Some people talking about a reality check and we're not that good and the rest of it need a reality check, it was a league game ffs.

They've won enough of them in the past two years.

DiscoStew · 15-03-2016 9:28am

It looked like some of our lads were stuck to the ground from what I saw. Maybe we had a couple of hard training sessions during the week given we had secured qualification. We made a lot or uncharacteristic errors, giving away possession cheaply, taking the wrong options, hitting aimless ball and even when we had time to perhaps pick out a man we lumped it into Devine who battled with 2 or 3 defenders for it when he had no hope.
I would agree a 2 man full forward line is probably the best we'll see. The ball in has to be a lot more telegraphed though, lumping it in there is fine an odd time but it happened over and over again on Sunday even though it was clearly not working. Working through the lines or playing space is probably likely to be more beneficial. Dublin did this superbly, playing balls out to the corners when corner forwards had withdrawn ever so slightly to isolate Eamonn Dillon, who had a fine game. This tactic made it very hard for the sweeper to cover across as he could have with high balls similar to what Waterford were playing.
Hoping to see some bit of a return to form for Maurice against Galway, his impact on this league campaign hasn't been quite what I was expecting.
Encouraging to see Pauric Mahony taking a full part in the warm up, hopefully he is taking part in internal games soon.
Galway game will be tough. They are fighting for a QF spot and will be hungry for it. If we can't match their hunger it could be very similar to Sunday. I wouldn't like to meet Clare in a QF prior to championship so I think it's important we take something from the game Sunday.

JesusRef · 15-03-2016 11:20am

It only takes one loss for the crazies to come back

Jjjjjjjbarry · 15-03-2016 2:28pm

I don't understand the thinking in putting the starting 15-18 players though this alleged "heavy training" in the lead up to division 1A league game.

Waterford have been clearly fitter than the other teams at the start of the league campaign and surely there's no better training than a competitive match so why favour heavy running over the game? Do your running in the game! Doesn't make sense to me - if it's true.

The one man forward must stop regardless. We need two in there. The rest works but having one man with three on him will never work. I'm confident this will be addressed and we'll win Munster

Bonniedog · 15-03-2016 2:45pm

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

I don't understand the thinking in putting the starting 15-18 players though this alleged "heavy training" in the lead up to division 1A league game.

Waterford have been clearly fitter than the other teams at the start of the league campaign and surely there's no better training than a competitive match so why favour heavy running over the game? Do your running in the game! Doesn't make sense to me - if it's true.

The one man forward must stop regardless. We need two in there. The rest works but having one man with three on him will never work. I'm confident this will be addressed and we'll win Munster

Putting teams through heavy training before games is not uncommon. Theory is that it creates the sort of pressure that players will be under later in year and prepares them for that. I remember hearing of some team who actually played a full on training match a few hours before a league game! Sounds totally mad but then many managers are

Dublin spent days at an army boot camp before getting hammered by Tipp in league semi final in 2013, and then went on and won Leinster.

Mind you I doubt anyone would have been boasting about it had they been hammered by the Cats a few weeks later!

culbaire · 15-03-2016 2:57pm

JesusRef wrote: »

It only takes one loss for the crazies to come back

The psychiatrist is back. You would not be out of place in North Korea. There you could enforce uniformity of thought.
Listen son: Most supporters are fed up of the bastardised ruck and maul hurling being played under the rugby/hurling system. They can see quite clearly that it is leading nowhere. It may bring some results in the muck and slush of winter when Waterford players are fitter than their opponents. That's about it. It will never win an All Ireland. Out with the bastardised ruck and maul rugby/ hurling played under the system.

JesusRef · 15-03-2016 7:46pm

culbaire wrote: »

The psychiatrist is back. You would not be out of place in North Korea. There you could enforce uniformity of thought.
Listen son: Most supporters are fed up of the bastardised ruck and maul hurling being played under the rugby/hurling system. They can see quite clearly that it is leading nowhere. It may bring some results in the muck and slush of winter when Waterford players are fitter than their opponents. That's about it. It will never win an All Ireland. Out with the bastardised ruck and maul rugby/ hurling played under the system.

You seem like a well rounded individual

tomwaterford · 15-03-2016 7:53pm

culbaire wrote: »

The psychiatrist is back. You would not be out of place in North Korea. There you could enforce uniformity of thought.
Listen son: Most supporters are fed up of the bastardised ruck and maul hurling being played under the rugby/hurling system. They can see quite clearly that it is leading nowhere. It may bring some results in the muck and slush of winter when Waterford players are fitter than their opponents. That's about it. It will never win an All Ireland. Out with the bastardised ruck and maul rugby/ hurling played under the system.

We've won fcuk all Ireland's in the last 50 odd years playing flat out

Last year with more or less a new team...they left a Munster title behind them againest tipp....and pure physicality power of kk beat them

Kk and tipp didn't do anything that waterford couldn't do?
The way it is....waterford haven't enough individual ball winners of physical strength to play the way you wish to see (none of top 5 teams play that way anymore)

Why lambast waterford for trying something different and playing to their strengths..

Who want to go back to see waterford concede like 5 goals and lose by a point when the pressure comes on....

**it should be said I do think waterford could match most teams at 15 v 15 like tipp the first half the last day and large tracts of the kk match opening round of the league

Alf Tupper · 15-03-2016 9:18pm

tomwaterford wrote: »

We've won fcuk all Ireland's in the last 50 odd years playing flat out

Last year with more or less a new team...they left a Munster title behind them againest tipp....and pure physicality power of kk beat them

Kk and tipp didn't do anything that waterford couldn't do?
The way it is....waterford haven't enough individual ball winners of physical strength to play the way you wish to see (none of top 5 teams play that way anymore)

Why lambast waterford for trying something different and playing to their strengths..

Who want to go back to see waterford concede like 5 goals and lose by a point when the pressure comes on....

**it should be said I do think waterford could match most teams at 15 v 15 like tipp the first half the last day and large tracts of the kk match opening round of the league

Firstly, this has nothing to do with Sunday's defeat.

It has more to do with the paucity of options shown on the line and on the field when we went behind to Dublin. We were all hoping that we would have something else in our locker this year but now I'm not so sure.

I think that the problem for many people last year was when in the last 10 minutes we were a few points behind Tipp and Kilkenny in the Championship we still didn't even bother to come out and have a real crack at either of them at that stage. To be honest, we never really looked like winning either game.

There's not much point in being in a Munster final or All Ireland semi final if we're only there to make sure we won't get hammered and to be happy enough with being competitive and to stay within a few points of the best teams.

Our system is designed for when we can get on top of a team and build up a lead. We are then organised enough to flood midfield and defence and hang on to that lead. The problem is when we go behind by 5 or 6 points we have no other options.

At some stage we have to be able to come out and hurl.

We were validly accused of doing too much hurling under Justin McCarthy. The problem now is we are not doing enough.

And, to be fair, Derek can't keep hanging on to the excuse of having a young team. He can't have it everyway and have his cake and eat it.

People are not stupid.

This is his third year and he set out his stall at the start of last year when he decided to have a clear out of many of the experienced players on the team so it's about time he stopped continuously beating this drum and hiding behind having a young team and step up to the plate.

It was his decision to go down that road so we are where we are. Sok, Noelie, Tadhg, Philip Mahony, Maurice, Darragh and Shane Fives, are all experienced hurlers now and have all been excellent for us in the last two years. Kevin Moran and Brick are even more experienced. There are 5 All Stars there alone with even Shane Sullivan still on the panel and getting some game time. Bottom line is there is enough balance between youth and experience to challenge any team.

For instance, are we any less experienced than Clare, Limerick, Cork, Dublin, Wexford, Offaly or even Tipp at the moment?

Bottom line is at the moment we have the hurlers to beat any team if there is enough faith shown in them.

TheScoringGoal · 15-03-2016 10:46pm

Waterford went conventional 15 on 15 for the last 10 minutes against Kilkenny in the all Ireland semi final last year. Austin Gleeson pushed up to the full forward like. To be fair I watched it back on tv and it was very difficult to see.

In relation to Sunday, they were lethargic from very early. It was very strange to go with one man on his own up front (I'd like to add Devine did very well in the role and deserves credit but he was never going to make inroads with three players on him) and not using the runners but going direct. But I think the management team deserve the benefit of the doubt for the year. It's a thinking mans tactic. It won't be to the liking of all but it has been very effective.

culbaire · 16-03-2016 1:11am

tomwaterford wrote: »

We've won fcuk all Ireland's in the last 50 odd years playing flat out

Last year with more or less a new team...they left a Munster title behind them againest tipp....and pure physicality power of kk beat them

Kk and tipp didn't do anything that waterford couldn't do?
The way it is....waterford haven't enough individual ball winners of physical strength to play the way you wish to see (none of top 5 teams play that way anymore)

Why lambast waterford for trying something different and playing to their strengths..

Who want to go back to see waterford concede like 5 goals and lose by a point when the pressure comes on....

**it should be said I do think waterford could match most teams at 15 v 15 like tipp the first half the last day and large tracts of the kk match opening round of the league

There is a great future for Waterford playing ruck and maul hurling with one player in the full forward line. That will definitely win an All Ireland in 2016.
So Waterford won't lose by at least one point this year in any championship match. We will see which one of us is right on the first Sunday in September.

robopaddy2 · 16-03-2016 1:18am

culbaire wrote: »

We will see which one of us is right on the first Sunday in September.

Hopefully you get your wish we'll be beat out the gate by July and Derek will be ousted. No more playing one man full forward line just to protect his prized pupils in the fullback line

tomwaterford · 16-03-2016 1:46am

culbaire wrote: »

There is a great future for Waterford playing ruck and maul hurling with one player in the full forward line. That will definitely win an All Ireland in 2016.
So Waterford won't lose by at least one point this year in any championship match. We will see which one of us is right on the first Sunday in September.

I fail to see where your drawing the somewhat bizzare and somewhat confrontational conclusion I said ruck and maul hurling was the future

Can they not play a two man full forward line like v kk on the league??

You are aware there is a middle ground between your wish to see a return to old fashioned methods (which none of top teams are playing)???
And the mess and lethargic that passes for tactics that occurred under Davy futz...now that was pure sh1te

PTH2009 · 16-03-2016 2:04am

justin mccarthy is now mentor to the antrim senior hurlers and they must be playing the old type of hurling as there stuggling a bit by there standards in Div 2a

hopefully management have learned a thing or 2 from last sundays defeat to the dubs.

So this 3 year plan that started in 2014 is now in its year 3 so where does that leave us ???????. I have a feeling year 2 was not suppose to happen as it did and we over achieved

DiscoStew · 16-03-2016 9:59am

PTH2009 wrote: »

justin mccarthy is now mentor to the antrim senior hurlers and they must be playing the old type of hurling as there stuggling a bit by there standards in Div 2a

hopefully management have learned a thing or 2 from last sundays defeat to the dubs.

So this 3 year plan that started in 2014 is now in its year 3 so where does that leave us ???????. I have a feeling year 2 was not suppose to happen as it did and we over achieved

Antrim are without all the Cushendall players still and given that they are a county that generally pull from very few club teams this would weaken them significantly.

culbaire · 16-03-2016 1:34pm

tomwaterford wrote: »

I fail to see where your drawing the somewhat bizzare and somewhat confrontational conclusion I said ruck and maul hurling was the future

Can they not play a two man full forward line like v kk on the league??

You are aware there is a middle ground between your wish to see a return to old fashioned methods (which none of top teams are playing)???
And the mess and lethargic that passes for tactics that occurred under Davy futz...now that was pure sh1te

I do know that Cork management having dabbled with a similar system as Waterford, dropped it last Saturday night and encouraged free flowing hurling. Hopefully Cork will continue to adopt such an approach. It was a much better spectacle to watch and a weak Cork team could and should have won. That is the way hurling should be played instead of the ruck and maul basketball game being played by Waterford and by some others. Waterford has the players to play free flowing hurling. Instead their skills are being stifled by the system.. Waterford will score very few goals with the current system. Goals win matches.

blue note · 16-03-2016 4:07pm

culbaire wrote: »

Waterford will score very few goals with the current system. Goals win matches.

We're probably conceding the fewest goals too. If goals win matches and other teams can't score them against us, then we'll win the matches

Deise Vu · 16-03-2016 4:18pm

blue note wrote: »

We're probably conceding the fewest goals too. If goals win matches and other teams can't score them against us, then we'll win the matches

Imagine having to tell a 'culbaire' that.

deisedude · 16-03-2016 4:58pm

culbaire wrote: »

I do know that Cork management having dabbled with a similar system as Waterford, dropped it last Saturday night and encouraged free flowing hurling. Hopefully Cork will continue to adopt such an approach. It was a much better spectacle to watch and a weak Cork team could and should have won. That is the way hurling should be played instead of the ruck and maul basketball game being played by Waterford and by some others. Waterford has the players to play free flowing hurling. Instead their skills are being stifled by the system.. Waterford will score very few goals with the current system. Goals win matches.

I'd rather win playing ugly than lose playing free flowing hurling.

mountgomery burns · 16-03-2016 7:48pm

What would have disappointed me a little on Sunday was the reaction on the line to the problems on the field.

Devine was always a likely candidate for being off first given they hadn't started him up to now but given he was given an impossible task it felt as if he was scape goated.

A big problem we had second half was Dublin players coming from deep, the spare men in the back line, getting on the ball and taking on shots with the hand. They got a few handy points for this. I don't really understand this to be honest as we should have it crowded around midfield if we only have one up top the whole time in at full forward.

David Treacy also got free reign, one of the more blatant flaws with the system in that a center forward with no designated man marker can cause havoc as seen with Pa Cronin and Richie Hogan in particular last year.

We weren't good enough to beat Kilkenny last year it's as simple as that. I was confident we'd put it up to them beforehand but I was awestruck by their physicality on the day. Somebody said you can't make that much of a stride in 12 months to claw that back recently, can't entertain that citing the previous 12 months as the obvious case of when great strides have been made in that timeframe.

We're in a great place at the moment I think, Clare have an awful lot to prove to be honest and we are a level above them at the minute. There are very few games in the championship and so people probably look back to two-three years ago in their estimation of teams but the game moves very quickly and a year is a long time. That's what has encourage me most, the performances in the first three games were generally very good and show that they are ready to up it a notch after last year rather than regress. In fairness, they should progress based on the profile of the team.

Continuity is important, tactical adaptability probably something to work on but I think there's far too dismissive an attitude of the preferred methods at the minute. Sunday was a bad performance but I think they are more than entitled to be forgiven..

It is only the league after all

KevIRL · 16-03-2016 9:18pm

Waterford 0-0 Cork 0-8 at HT in the under 21 football.

KevIRL · 16-03-2016 9:25pm

8 mins into second half and its 0-0 to 2-11. Grim

KevIRL · 16-03-2016 9:36pm

Waterford's first point comes after 48 mins. 0-1 to 3-12.

The comeback is on.

KevIRL · 16-03-2016 9:49pm

Full time. Waterford 0-2 Cork 3-18

robopaddy2 · 16-03-2016 11:41pm

KevIRL wrote: »

Full time. Waterford 0-2 Cork 3-18

3 years ago at minor level this team pushed Kerry all the way in Killarney. Conor Gleeson, Paul O'Connor and Michael Troy were all outstanding forwards on that team. I note none of them were playing last night. Sad to see. Same old story.

cul beag · 17-03-2016 12:40am

2 points scored? Ah come on now that has to be a joke! 3 months training to kick 2 points? That's inexcusable,sorry now but I'm not taking any rubbish reasons why this happened its a complete waste of time and money. We have secured 2 points in division 4 of the football league and we still persist with the charade aswell? What happened to Paddy Joe's think tank that was going to sort all the issues with football in Waterford?
I wonder how did Kilkenny get on in their Leinster u21 football championship game?!!!!!!!

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1