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Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

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    #32
    StreetLight
    Registered Users Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    Infini2 wrote: »
    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/luas-drivers-plan-strikes-in-protest-over-wages-31478937.html

    And now the Luas drivers are getting fed up as well.

    At least the moaners amongst us can't say: "Privatise it".


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    #33
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-rail-staff-failing-to-report-near-misses-for-fear-of-being-reprimanded-31484298.html
    Irish Rail workers are failing to report "near misses" or incidents on the country's railways for fear of being blamed by senior management, a damning safety audit reveals.


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    #34
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/rail-boss-tackles-unrest-over-near-misses-31486711.html

    Another article as well. Tbh I dont know what to make of it myself its certainly odd the way it came out but at the same time im not suprised as it shows how little trusts their is with management. Their 1st responce to any issue is to blame someone rather than listen to whats happening and do something about it.


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    #35
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    StreetLight wrote: »
    At least the moaners amongst us can't say: "Privatise it".

    Luas is far better run than Irish Rail. Frequency is better. Operating hours are better. Passenger information is better (look how long RUI campaigned just to get DART staff to put the correct destination on the trains), RPU staff are reasonable. There have been no strikes and far less threats of strikes. Trams were lengthened without any ridiculous claims for increased pay from the drivers. The list is endless.

    It's far from scientific but a quick look at this very forum is littered with people complaining about problems with Irish Rail. On the other hand, there's hardly a mention of Luas (other than anti social behaviour on the Red line). Why is that considering they carry the same number of people?

    Having new infrastructure helps with the service but the rest is down to TransDev being a far superior rail operator to Irish Rail. I don't believe that's (entirely) because they're a private company and have something to prove and lose. I think it's just because they're better.


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    #36
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    markpb wrote: »
    Luas is far better run than Irish Rail. Frequency is better. Operating hours are better.

    and why is that? is it because the company running it are doing it off their own backs at their own expence, or because it gets enough funding for extra hours and frequency? either way its still rather slow and still doesn't have the traffic priority it should, which means its a lot slower then it could have been.
    markpb wrote: »
    There have been no strikes and far less threats of strikes.

    i'm sure there was a strike going back a bit. nothing wrong with strikes anyway, they are a necessary evil. they don't happen unless there is a genuine reason, considering one doesn't get payed while on strike.
    markpb wrote: »
    Trams were lengthened without any ridiculous claims for increased pay from the drivers.

    whats ridiculous about the claims. a train is a lot longer then a tram ever could be. more people = more responsibility. if luas drivers don't want to claim more money thats their right, but it doesn't mean irish rail drivers are wrong.
    markpb wrote: »
    It's far from scientific but a quick look at this very forum is littered with people complaining about problems with Irish Rail. On the other hand, there's hardly a mention of Luas (other than anti social behaviour on the Red line). Why is that considering they carry the same number of people?

    because its a bog standard tram which goes from a to b and only has to offer a seat or just room to get on? on infrastructure that simply has tram only and doesn't have to share services with other forms of train. where as with irish rail there are a large number of things to go wrong due to the nature of the rail network and the different types of services it has to manage. + management who are interested in operational convenience only. all could be dealt with by putting the relevant specifications in the contract with irish rail. why didn't the NTA implement specifications in relation to widely discussed issues in the contract with IE when they renewed it?
    markpb wrote: »
    Having new infrastructure helps with the service but the rest is down to TransDev being a far superior rail operator to Irish Rail.

    far superior how? maybe its the fact they get payed to do a job and if not they can be dealt with. TransDev do what they are payed to and nothing more, why would they? why would anyone? nothing to be excited over. any improvements to irish rail could be implemented tomorrow, but its much easier to play politics then improve the railway.
    markpb wrote: »
    I don't believe that's (entirely) because they're a private company and have something to prove and lose. I think it's just because they're better.

    i believe its because they get payed to do something and there are penalties for not doing it. you could implement a penalty on irish rail if you wanted to, docking a weeks wages from management would be a start unless they have a genuine reason for such failure. (that means actually listening to what is said and making an independant decisian rather then just simply going at them to satisfy the media)

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #37
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Vote for action to commence on Monday!


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    #38
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Is the Enterprise affected if IE's brightest and best decide to down tools?


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    #39
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    The unions said they were ballotting drivers because the company has failed to fulfill a commitment to reward past productivity increases.
    "It's not about money" is what we were told on this thread.


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    #40
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Is the Enterprise affected if IE's brightest and best decide to down tools?

    Most likely


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    #41
    McAlban
    Registered Users Posts: 405 ✭✭McAlban


    hmmm wrote: »
    "It's not about money" is what we were told on this thread.

    It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money for the increased productivity that never materialised because management failed to implement a more efficient process because we opposed that process unless we got a productivity increase.


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    #42
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    McAlban wrote: »
    It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money for the increased productivity that never materialised because management failed to implement a more efficient process because we opposed that process unless we got a productivity increase.

    So there's been no increase in productivity (whoever is to blame) but workers want a pay increase anyway, and are striking for not getting it?


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    #43
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    McAlban wrote: »
    It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money for the increased productivity that never materialised because management failed to implement a more efficient process because we opposed that process unless we got a productivity increase.

    I don't know weather this is a troll or not..... -.o

    Seriously tho I don't know what will happen plenty of people would rather not strike as on its own it wouldn't accomplish anything. Would rather hit em with work to rule or refusal to work rest days or overtime instead since this would be more effective. It would show both how badly the company been managed as well how poor staffing levels are. Wouldn't even be a strike as well so no loss of core pay.

    Realistically the problems that's occurred over the last few years is additional stuff has been taken on by staff but no appreciation has been shown by management. Just throw more stuff on people who actually keep the place going until theyre nearly overloaded. This whole thing about the company losing money is all bull, the goverment cut the funding to the place because FG would rather dump as much of the costs onto the passengers as possible. Its also part of FGs little plan to run things down so they can sell it off look at the water, they cut the funding down drastically and then turn round and say people need to pay more cos we cant afford it with taxes etc. Hell I even wonder who exactly on the board even worked their way up through the company and isnt some political apointee from outside the country, I mean why would we bring someone in from outside instead of getting people who know how the place runs into the top seat?


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    #44
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    Infini2 wrote: »
    Hell I even wonder who exactly on the board even worked their way up through the company and isnt some political apointee from outside the country, I mean why would we bring someone in from outside instead of getting people who know how the place runs into the top seat?

    The current chairman Phil Gaffney was formerly managing director of the Hong Kong Metro, having also served as Chief Engineer and Operations Director during his 28 years with that company. He is also a non-executive Director of London’s Crossrail Board and a member of the Crossrail Health & Safety Committee.

    The rest of the board are the usual people that large companies allow to populate their boards: accountants, mediators, etc. I don't have much time for them but that's just my opinion.

    Of course, before anyone complains about no-one on the board knowing what it's really like at the coalface: John Moloney was appointed to the Board in December 2005 under the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Acts, 1977 to 2001. John joined Bus Éireann in 1978 and works in Capwell Garage in Cork as a bus driver. He is a member of the NBRU.
    McAlban wrote: »
    It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money for the increased productivity that never materialised because management failed to implement a more efficient process because we opposed that process unless we got a productivity increase.

    What does that even mean!?


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    #45
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    McAlban wrote: »
    It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money
    What?


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    #46
    McAlban
    Registered Users Posts: 405 ✭✭McAlban


    Sorry Should have engaged the [Sarcasm][/Sarcasm] tags.

    It's more tongue in cheek of course. It's a comment on the cyclical nature of industrial relations in IE. They'll eventually reach a compromise and even though Management and Workers will not be 100% happy they'll agree to return to the issue at a later date. And so begins the cycle again.


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    #47
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    hmmm wrote: »
    What?
    its not about money.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #48
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    end of the road wrote: »
    its not about money.
    They're balloting for a strike to get paid more money, but it's not about money?


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    #49
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    hmmm wrote: »
    They're balloting for a strike to get paid more money, but it's not about money?
    you will have to ask them.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #50
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0928/730976-luas-drivers-pay/

    Interestingly enough the LUAS drivers are looking for a sizable increase of 40% to bring em into line with the rail drivers. I don't blame them considering they're in a more exposed environment tho I don't think they'd get that kind of pay rise in one go either.

    Way things are going I wonder if things dont improve that ol Fine Gobshyte ends up with a double strike by both luas and rail staff.


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    #51
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1005/732524-irish-rail/
    SIPTU train drivers in Irish Rail have voted overwhelmingly for industrial action in a dispute over pay.

    SIPTU organiser Paul Cullen said: "The result of this ballot, which saw 92% of drivers vote in favour of industrial action, indicates the level of frustration felt at the company's refusal to honour an agreement it entered into in September 2014.

    "Our members still hope that management will step back from the brink and honour the terms of this agreement to negotiate on past productivity produced by drivers."

    He added: "Failure to do so will inevitably lead to the disruption of services provided by Irish Rail."

    The National Bus and Rail Union has voted by 95% to back industrial action in a row over pay.

    I notice both have conveniently left out turnout figures....


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    #52
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,971 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1005/732524-irish-rail/


    I notice both have conveniently left out turnout figures....

    Don't see the relevance of same to be honest. The turn out is the turnout.


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    #53
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1005/732524-irish-rail/


    I notice both have conveniently left out turnout figures....

    I don't think I've ever seen turn out mentioned before in any industrial relations votes from any industry-it's not very relevant.

    The only type of voting we ever seem to have turn out mentioned in is elections or referendums.

    GM228


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    #54
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Turnouts are frequently mentioned, just Google strike ballot turnout. For example
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-threatens-one-day-strike-over-junior-cycle-reforms-1.1954871


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    #55
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Don't see the relevance of same to be honest. The turn out is the turnout.

    Of course but holding back the stats (certain they have released before) don't give the full picture. What if it was a turnout of less than 50% for example.


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    #56
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    That statistic is becoming an increasing issue across the water in Great Britain for that very reason - strikes being called in the public sector but based on very low turnouts.


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    #57
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    That statistic is becoming an increasing issue across the water in Great Britain for that very reason - strikes being called in the public sector but based on very low turnouts.

    It may be a non issue in this case though. Alot of the frustrations are being felt by drivers due to the way management will stonewall everything as much as they can so I can at least believe that figure from talking to drivers myself. Alot of the problems as well seem to stem back to Franks hes micromanaging and blocking everything. End of the day the company cant simply say theyre willing to sit down and then refuse to talk about things. The drivers are more likely to engage in short rush hour strikes at the moment as well as a way of putting pressure on both managent and government without shutting down the system entirely.

    Its not just the pay as well its the fact that thanks to the culling of too many staff and the lumping of more and more duties onto the drivers that theyre getting fed up. Its all thrown on them with nothing in return and some of this is going on nearly a decade or more. You got the likes of connolly run completely on overtime according to one driver because of less and less staff. Rail is just as badly manned as the health service becausd theres nothing but management jobs being made and filled too.

    End of the day rail is an incredibly responsible job you can have a single driver responsible for a train with up to 1000 people on it and unlike a bus these things are extrely heavy and if your forced to break one of these things at speed you can travel for a good mile or more before actually stopping one of these. This aint something you pay someone minimum wage to drive its a skilled job with months of training involved before you even go out driving in one.


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    #58
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Sorry what new duties do they have lets say compared to 12 months ago which have come at the expense of staff.

    EU regulation which have come into force do not count.


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    #59
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Sorry what new duties do they have lets say compared to 12 months ago which have come at the expense of staff.

    EU regulation which have come into force do not count.

    Its a multitude of issues going back years these aren't just things from last year, they were meant to setup a committee as part of the deal to sort these things but the company is basically saying sure well sit down but were not talking about this and that and so on. I mean if one side is refusing to talk about certain issues in a meeting that's meant to resolve these kind of issues whats the point in even being there in the 1st place?

    Alot of problems are in part due to the fact that they're consistently running down staff in stations and part replacing them like the cleaning and such with low paid contractors while making the drivers take up the slack for the remaining things with nothing in return.

    Meanwhile there's seemingly plenty of management jobs being advertised every few weeks. Its like everything else in the country lately you know why these strikes in the post or hospitals are breaking out? Cos management just want to ram everything they want through without any input from those actually doing the job. If this happens in any other place including your own eventually people get pissed off and go on strike or take industrial action because noones listening and your out of options.


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    #60
    Wild Garlic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Wild Garlic


    Infini2 wrote: »
    Its a multitude of issues going back years these aren't just things from last year, they were meant to setup a committee as part of the deal to sort these things but the company is basically saying sure well sit down but were not talking about this and that and so on. I mean if one side is refusing to talk about certain issues in a meeting that's meant to resolve these kind of issues whats the point in even being there in the 1st place?

    Alot of problems are in part due to the fact that they're consistently running down staff in stations and part replacing them like the cleaning and such with low paid contractors while making the drivers take up the slack for the remaining things with nothing in return.

    Meanwhile there's seemingly plenty of management jobs being advertised every few weeks. Its like everything else in the country lately you know why these strikes in the post or hospitals are breaking out? Cos management just want to ram everything they want through without any input from those actually doing the job. If this happens in any other place including your own eventually people get pissed off and go on strike or take industrial action because noones listening and your out of options.
    Why not answer the question you were asked. What duties?


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    #61
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Wild Garlic wrote: »
    Why not answer the question you were asked. What duties?

    he did answer the question

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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