DART+ (DART Expansion)

Idbatterim · 23-09-2015 2:54pm

a single bore tunnel would be cheaper but would be less flexible in operation and safety would be a more serious concern, e.g. one train derailing hitting another one in the opposite direction would release a substantial amount of kenetic energy. It also complicates maintenance operations and signal repairs, that sort of thing.

in the vast majority of the track, can they not have a simple barrier between the tracks?

cgcsb · 23-09-2015 3:08pm

that's true, there's also the construction and support systems to consider, one large bore means removing more rock and the larger tunnel roof the morebending force on the structure. You also have ventilation, trains can basically push air around in a single track twin bore, where as they can't really do so in a more cavernous empty space you'd have in a large single bore.

Sam Russell · 23-09-2015 3:15pm

What is the ratio of costs between the two? Also, we are talking about quite short tunnels.

FreudianSlippers · 24-09-2015 8:40am

cgcsb wrote: »

We'll probably see a DART line from Kildare-Heuston, entirely separate from the rest of the DARt network. Electrification through the PPT would be a feat of engineering on it's own

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is hard to see why anyone would consider running a DART out to Balbriggan when an area like Blanchardstown is so underserved.

They're really starting to push the acronym on the "DA" and the "R" part; particularly when looking at Balbriggan and Kildare instead of places like Blanch and Castleknock, which are so under-served.

McAlban · 24-09-2015 9:27am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They're really starting to push the acronym on the "DA" and the "R" part; particularly when looking at Balbriggan and Kildare instead of places like Blanch and Castleknock, which are so under-served.

Again, Blanch and Castleknock ARE served. The Problem is the Maynooth line was built on the Cheap during the height of the Famine. Too Many Level Crossings etc.

I'm not opposed to electrification of the Maynooth line but it's crazy people on here moanding about "Blanch" not having a rail service, when there are 4 stations in the area and somewhere like Balbriggan getting a Dart extension that's been on the cards for 40 years.

Remember it's a political decision too. Dublin North has 2 FG and 1 Labour TD who need re-election. Plus it is far easier to extend the Line north 20km from malahide than to start from scratch out the maynooth Line.

FreudianSlippers · 24-09-2015 9:37am

McAlban wrote: »

Again, Blanch and Castleknock ARE served. The Problem is the Maynooth line was built on the Cheap during the height of the Famine. Too Many Level Crossings etc.

I'm not opposed to electrification of the Maynooth line but it's crazy people on here moanding about "Blanch" not having a rail service, when there are 4 stations in the area and somewhere like Balbriggan getting a Dart extension that's been on the cards for 40 years.

Remember it's a political decision too. Dublin North has 2 FG and 1 Labour TD who need re-election. Plus it is far easier to extend the Line north 20km from malahide than to start from scratch out the maynooth Line.

They're technically served by one station "Castleknock" which is on the border between the two areas and in the least populous part of both. It's between 1.7-2.5km from the populous area of Castleknock for example.

I suppose it's ok if you want to access Blanchardstown village, but it doesn't truly serve Castelknock in the slightest, nor does it serve the Blanch shopping centre or hospital where many people live/visit/work.

FreudianSlippers · 24-09-2015 9:40am

As an aside, would it make any sense to do a cut+cover turn-back loop in the greenfield site on the opposite side of the Navan Road Parkway Station and continue a cut+cover through the Phoenix park (zoo stop), meet up w/ Phoenix Park tunnel to Heuston and then tunnel to Tara St?

LXFlyer · 24-09-2015 9:47am

The level crossings on the Maynooth line really are not an issue in the medium/long term - all the crossings between the city and Clonsilla are down for elimination, and replacement with bridges, and this would certainly have to happen in the event of electrification.

McAlban · 24-09-2015 10:14am

lxflyer wrote: »

The level crossings on the Maynooth line really are not an issue in the medium/long term - all the crossings between the city and Clonsilla are down for elimination, and replacement with bridges, and this would certainly have to happen in the event of electrification.

Yes I know someone who worked on Reilly's Level Crossing. This was not an easy Job and Look around for the NIMBY's opposing the removal of the (old) Porterstown Road level crossing.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As an aside, would it make any sense to do a cut+cover turn-back loop in the greenfield site on the opposite side of the Navan Road Parkway Station and continue a cut+cover through the Phoenix park (zoo stop), meet up w/ Phoenix Park tunnel to Heuston and then tunnel to Tara St?

On your point on Blanch. The Train Station is located where it is. I don't see the point in extending a Branch through a built up area to serve areas >2km from Heavy Rail. Metro West was supposed to serve those areas you mention.

On your Crayonism above.. can you draw a map? My head hurts trying to figure that out.

mackerski · 24-09-2015 10:15am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As an aside, would it make any sense to do a cut+cover turn-back loop in the greenfield site on the opposite side of the Navan Road Parkway Station and continue a cut+cover through the Phoenix park (zoo stop), meet up w/ Phoenix Park tunnel to Heuston and then tunnel to Tara St?

So you would get a stop in a park that 2 people live in and another way to travel between Navan Road Parkway and Tara Street? Seems like very bad value for the tunnelling effort.

antoinolachtnai · 24-09-2015 10:16am

McAlban wrote: »

Again, Blanch and Castleknock ARE served. The Problem is the Maynooth line was built on the Cheap during the height of the Famine. Too Many Level Crossings etc.

I'm not opposed to electrification of the Maynooth line but it's crazy people on here moanding about "Blanch" not having a rail service, when there are 4 stations in the area and somewhere like Balbriggan getting a Dart extension that's been on the cards for 40 years.

The whole point of an electric railway is that it is more cost-effective than a diesel railway if the frequency is high. The problem is that Balbriggan doesn't really merit the frequency of an electric railway.

Plus it is far easier to extend the Line north 20km from malahide than to start from scratch out the maynooth Line.

For sure, extending to North Blanch is a complicated undertaking. There are lots of people to liaise with and lots of decisions to be made.

Maynooth and Balbriggan are very attractive as projects. They are easy to do in terms of the number of decisions required. It is just a matter of getting the money.

The problem is that despite the projects being straightforward, there is no real need for them.

antoinolachtnai · 24-09-2015 10:17am

mackerski wrote: »

So you would get a stop in a park that 2 people live in and another way to travel between Navan Road Parkway and Tara Street? Seems like very bad value for the tunnelling effort.

Mind you, there is a lot to be said for linking the Phoenix Park Tunnel to a southern tunnel.

FreudianSlippers · 24-09-2015 10:22am

mackerski wrote: »

So you would get a stop in a park that 2 people live in and another way to travel between Navan Road Parkway and Tara Street? Seems like very bad value for the tunnelling effort.

About a million people go to the Zoo per annum, but even so, my point was more in reference to the above discussed issue with a turnback loop.

Surely you would also agree that you're actually also sarcastically stating an argument against DU? Another way to get from Heuston (included in my crayoning btw) to Connolly/Tara St (whichever the new plan considers).

McAlban · 24-09-2015 10:26am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The whole point of an electric railway is that it is more cost-effective than a diesel railway if the frequency is high. The problem is that Balbriggan doesn't really merit the frequency of an electric railway.

Drive out to Balbriggan some morning and try and get on the Commuter train at 07:55 to Connolly. Usually Standing Room only and only gets worse as you go through Skerries, Rush&Lusk and Donabate; The 3 other stations served by this extension, This is 5 commuter towns that have massively expanded in the last 10 years, and have development plans in place to facilitate a lot more development. They do need DART, if only to take pressure off the M1/Swords Road Corridor.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

For sure, extending to North Blanch is a complicated undertaking. There are lots of people to liaise with and lots of decisions to be made.

And lots of houses to Flatten/Tunnels to Dig. because there is not Permanent Way to be had.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Maynooth and Balbriggan are very attractive as projects. They are easy to do in terms of the number of decisions required. It is just a matter of getting the money.

Agree with you here. But stop thinking of Two Commuter Areas. IT is a lot more.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The problem is that despite the projects being straightforward, there is no real need for them.

Totally disagree. These are the Terminii, think of the whole Corridor.

antoinolachtnai · 24-09-2015 10:26am

McAlban wrote: »

On your point on Blanch. The Train Station is located where it is. I don't see the point in extending a Branch through a built up area to serve areas >2km from Heavy Rail. Metro West was supposed to serve those areas you mention.

The current station isn't a strong destination and never will be. In fact, there are no really strong destinations on the whole line. By having a station at the Blanchardstown Centre, it will give the whole line a raison d'etre and will attract a lot more riders. There is a rail reservation there.

FreudianSlippers · 24-09-2015 10:32am

McAlban wrote: »

On your Crayonism above.. can you draw a map? My head hurts trying to figure that out.

Very rough and obviously blue-sky thinking considering the re-design, but:

http://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/DU_Ashtown/7MMeuRaDVl

FreudianSlippers · 24-09-2015 10:33am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The current station isn't a strong destination and never will be. In fact, there are no really strong destinations on the whole line. By having a station at the Blanchardstown Centre, it will give the whole line a raison d'etre and will attract a lot more riders. There is a rail reservation there.

Not to mention the hospital!

McAlban · 24-09-2015 10:40am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Not to mention the hospital!

And Blanch IT, Corduff etc. I'm not saying it's not warranted. Just with the Built up areas I don't thin Heavy Rail is possible.

Blue Sky Thinking. Extend the Luas Green Line from broombridge up the Tolka Valley to Serve these areas...

FreudianSlippers · 24-09-2015 10:42am

McAlban wrote: »

And Blanch IT, Corduff etc. I'm not saying it's not warranted. Just with the Built up areas I don't thin Heavy Rail is possible.

Blue Sky Thinking. Extend the Luas Green Line from broombridge up the Tolka Valley to Serve these areas...

Fine, but my point still stands that the truly populous parts of Castleknock and Blanchardstown aren't truly served by rail.

McAlban · 24-09-2015 10:50am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Fine, but my point still stands that the truly populous parts of Castleknock and Blanchardstown aren't truly served by rail.

Neither are the Populous areas of Naas, Balbriggan, Celbridge, Lucan, Leixlip. Many of Which have a Shuttle Service.

Anway, Way off topic.

FreudianSlippers · 24-09-2015 10:50am

McAlban wrote: »

Neither are the Populous areas of Naas, Balbriggan, Celbridge, Lucan, Leixlip. Many of Which have a Shuttle Service.

Anway, Way off topic.

Again, a serious stretch of the DA part of DART really.

Carawaystick · 24-09-2015 10:54am

McAlban wrote: »

Drive out to Balbriggan some morning and try and get on the Commuter train at 07:55 to Connolly. Usually Standing Room only and only gets worse as you go through Skerries, Rush&Lusk and Donabate; The 3 other stations served by this extension, This is 5 commuter towns that have massively expanded in the last 10 years, and have development plans in place to facilitate a lot more development. They do need DART, if only to take pressure off the M1/Swords Road Corridor.

They need an increased frequency service, which could be implemented by running more DMU trains to GCD when the city centre resignalling lets the number of trains per hour across the Liffey increase to 20 from 12 per hour.
There is no need to hang up wires and buy an entire fleet of new trains, when a few new trains would do the trick.

murphaph · 24-09-2015 10:57am

This thread has lost its marbles. People discussing new fantasy solutions and variations and whatnot. The tunnel section that everything would depend on had been cancelled. It's a travesty and people arguing over dart to Balbriggan versus dart to Blanch is really quite sad. Fighting over the crumbs falling from the rural politicians' table....

alias no.9 · 24-09-2015 11:10am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Fine, but my point still stands that the truly populous parts of Castleknock and Blanchardstown aren't truly served by rail.

Where are the truly populous areas of both? Both are sprawling suburbia, there are no population dense centers.

'Castleknock' station is surrounded by suburbia, as is Coolmine.

Clonsilla and Dunboyne are kind of one sided affairs running beside residential rather than bisecting them but in the case of the latter it's on the Clonee side of Dunboyne to at least offer something for Clonee residents.

Hansfield is, well eh, one for the future.

Idbatterim · 24-09-2015 11:48am

This thread has lost its marbles. People discussing new fantasy solutions and variations and whatnot. The tunnel section that everything would depend on had been cancelled. It's a travesty and people arguing over dart to Balbriggan versus dart to Blanch is really quite sad. Fighting over the crumbs falling from the rural politicians' table....

I think we are all pi**ed off with the situation, I am sure we will get DU, Dublin has to get DU, the question is when, the same question that has been on the table for years at this stage.

In terms of coming up with a cheaper solution or a number of cheaper options i.e. single bore tunnel, shorter tunnel, dropping stations, surely the costing for this, could be known in under a year?

cgcsb · 24-09-2015 12:04pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They're really starting to push the acronym on the "DA" and the "R" part; particularly when looking at Balbriggan and Kildare instead of places like Blanch and Castleknock, which are so under-served.

It was my understanding that electrification is happening across the short hop zone.

cgcsb · 24-09-2015 12:12pm

Regarding blanchardstown, it the BRT is built as planned much of sprawling Blanch will have good connections to M3 Parkway station which will have a frequent DART service.

Sam Russell · 24-09-2015 1:14pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think we are all pi**ed off with the situation, I am sure we will get DU, Dublin has to get DU, the question is when, the same question that has been on the table for years at this stage.

In terms of coming up with a cheaper solution or a number of cheaper options i.e. single bore tunnel, shorter tunnel, dropping stations, surely the costing for this, could be known in under a year?

Maybe the key to DU is to propose the tunnels be used for cars, and then switch to trains as construction begins, or alternatively suggest a twin bore tunnel, one for trains and one for cars.

LXFlyer · 24-09-2015 1:53pm

McAlban wrote: »

Yes I know someone who worked on Reilly's Level Crossing. This was not an easy Job and Look around for the NIMBY's opposing the removal of the (old) Porterstown Road level crossing.

That as maybe, but the level crossings will go eventually.

Porterstown is not an issue as damn all traffic uses it and it is automated.

antoinolachtnai · 24-09-2015 2:15pm

It is well worth looking at the population density maps to see how the population is spread.

http://airo.maynoothuniversity.ie/external-content/census-2011-national-mapping-viewer

Beyond Clongriffin, there is just very little population for every additional kilometre of rail that you electrify. There are pockets of density, but that is about it. Every extra kilometre you open up, the more money the railway will lose on operating costs.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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