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Would you be upset if your family or best friend vote No to marriage referendum

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    #32
    tomato1234
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭tomato1234


    Would I ever sacrifice something I truly belief for a better life of someone I really care? When I imagine my best friend can live a life with full potential and reserve the same rights as everyone else. I will say yes every time and run extra mile for that person.

    Would I be upset if my best friend tell me he is going to vote no in the referendum? I will be disappointed.


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    #33
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    gleesonger wrote: »
    Over the past few weeks I felt that the emotional anger as expressed in this forum towards the No side has caused me to want to vote no. For no reason other than I don't like political bullying and that people have the right to vote as they see fit with no fear of retribution.

    Many here will vote yes due to very emotive personal experiance, those with no experience do not have such an advantage. They approach the situation quite impassively and do not intend any personal hurt by their view, if they encounter a backlash they may well becoming entrenched in their position.

    What the Yes side should concentrate on is communicating the very real and personal side of this issue. Help the No voters understand (in a safe environment free from hate) the great personal pain it can cause.

    You know what. It hurts a lot. It hurts when people compare me to a child abuser. It hurts when people say I would be an unfit parent. It hurts a lot when I am treated as a lesser human being by other people and by the state. I want to really lash out in huge roars of anger a lot. Especially when I hear someone saying our emotions should be kept hidden and that by telling our stories and expressing our emotions we are the ones in the wrong. It's also deeply insulting to suggest that we hate every single no voter in this forum. I don't hate individuals. I hate the opressive ideology that crushed me for 10 long years in school. I hate the oppressive ideology that tells me again and again I am a second class citizen.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #34
    lottpaul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭lottpaul


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    You know what. It hurts a lot. It hurts when people compare me to a child abuser. It hurts when people say I would be an unfit parent. It hurts a lot when I am treated as a lesser human being by other people and by the state. I want to really lash out in huge roars of anger a lot. Especially when I hear someone saying our emotions should be kept hidden and that by telling our stories and expressing our emotions we are the ones in the wrong. It's also deeply insulting to suggest that we hate every single no voter in this forum. I don't individuals. I hate the opressive ideology that crushed me for 10 long years in school. I hate the oppressive ideology that tells me again and again I am a second class citizen.

    Very well put.



    I'll be voting Yes and as far as I know all of my close family are also. I would be disappointed if any of them voted No, but would listen carefully to any reasons they would like to share. It would however change my relationship with them – not that it would sever it etc, but it would change. I've had loads of political disagreements with them down the years – and still do. That's part of a normal life.
    But this is different.
    This is deeply personal.
    This is about me and my partner, who I would dearly love to marry, and the life we have lived and shared for many years. Many of the No arguments – leaving aside the red herrings and other nonsense – are deeply offensive to me. They don't relate to any reality that I see or experience and instead sow fear and distrust in an effort to win support. I won't rehash any of them here but in my own mind when I strip away the veneer I can only see one thing – the love I feel and the family I am part of are not viewed as equal to those of other citizens of this country.


    I've been looking closely at most of the threads about the referendum, reading carefully what people say – or try to avoid saying by talking about something else entirely (AH is not a good place for the blood pressure) – and have been both shocked and surprised at my reactions.
    I've ranged from fury to fear, from relief to anxiety and back again, and have stopped off at almost every emotion in between. Those who know me best would tell you that's not like me.


    I am beginning to feel this referendum is not just about same sex marriage – but about being gay itself. It's almost like going back to a time 30 or 40 years ago when there wasn't even lipservice to acceptance and tolerance was the best one could hope for. I know that isn't actually the case but it feels like it.
    I really think that in spite of what some people may say their issue is mainly about same sex relationships of any kind. If that's true, why don't they say it instead of talking about surrogacy, adoption, parenting - or my new favourite - two same sex people marrying each other just for tax purposes and the subsequent loss of income to the exchequer?


    As for the love and concern for my happiness, security and general well being that many in the leadership of the No campaign and the RC hierarchy claim to be so concerned about – well, I have to tell you I don't feel it now and I have never, ever felt it in the past. The opposite was and is still true. There are fine and honourable exceptions among the ordinary clergy and religious, but none in the higher ranks.
    (I don't confine that only to the RC church by the way – there are some Protestant churches and members who would hold similar if not more extreme attitudes)


    Comments such as “gay people are already free to marry someone of the opposite sex” and “gay people should remain celibate, like all unmarried people” hark back to earlier and darker times and display a flippancy about peoples lives that I find offensive.


    Some people in this country predicted calamity and doom when homosexuality was decriminalised, when discrimination was outlawed (though they got to keep it in certain cases), when civil partnerships were proposed and introduced etc. The sky didn't fall in and most people got on with living their lives and worrying about more important things.
    Yes, when CP was introduced (after bitter opposition from many of the same people campaigning for a No vote today) we grabbed it with both hands. Why wouldn't we? Before that we had nothing. We were “strangers” in terms of the law, we had no inheritance rights, no access rights if one of us became ill, no legal standing of any sort.
    Why am I not happy with that civil partnership – or even a souped up version of civil partnership that some No campaigners claim to advocate?


    Because its not equal – it's not the same.


    But we have the system we have, for good or ill, and we have to work within it.
    That's why I would hope that my family and friends would support us.
    That's why it would alter relationships for a long time if they voted No.


    But, hey, it's not all gloomy. Isn't it wonderful to see so many people articulating their support for equal marriage. Who would have thought that any RC priests and nuns would be willing to speak openly on what they clearly see as a civil right to civil marriage? Many people in sports in particular have spoken out clearly too. And in the arts, in business, in trades unions and many more. It must be especially good for young people – perhaps especially those too young to vote – to see that level of acceptance and positivity.


    At the end of it all, no matter what I say or think or feel there will be many people who will vote No. That's their perfect right but they can't expect me and others like me to be happy about it, to understand it or to tell them that it's all hunky dory and that it doesn't matter -
    because it does.

    I hope an even bigger number will vote Yes and I can't begin to express what that support will mean to us. There are really no words to do it justice.


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    #35
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    I would be, family particularly. Friends can be brought up certain ways in areas of the country or abroad that wouldn't support SSM, despite the person not being homophobic themselves. But really ,unless my friend who was voting no was very religious and that was their reason then I would think much less of them after this referendum.
    A handful of my friends are voting no, the three of them happen to be from asian countries, Pakistan and India. They're all extremely religious and said they were going to vote no for religious reasons which I believe, but Im trying to convince them not to vote. Im fine with them not agreeing with it and going out to vote yes, but we don't need more no votes. This doesn't change anything about their lives and I think its rude to deny other people rights based on this.


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    #36
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    I have gay friends, I've kissed a guy before (didn't much like it), so I'm not a staunch "No marriage for gays!" person. I'm saying that ultimately what happens behind the curtain is not anyone else's business. Being pressured into voting yes despite wanting to vote no because people will ridicule you and break their ties with you is no way to operate a democracy.

    That second part sounds ridiculously childish, lol. You're probably no worse off for not talking to them much any more.



    There could be any number of reasons as to why they want to vote no. Not wanting future conflict between a Churches' right to deny marriages and the right of gay people to get married, not wanting to redefine the right of biological parents... Just saying "if you vote no, I'll not like you anymore" isn't democratic and is emotionally and psychologically manipulative (probably rightly so).

    That absurd. Nobody would shun them just to punish them for not voting how they wished.

    The reason I know I would be unable to maintain the same relationship with a no voter is because of what their no vote says about their views and beliefs on me and people like me.

    A no vote means they believe I am unequal and undeserving. I could not count anybody who thinks such a thing about me as somebody who truly loved, supprted or accepted me.


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    #37
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    ongarboy wrote: »
    This is a hard one for me. My mother is deeply Catholic and only views marriage in the sacrament of the Church sense rather than the legal sense. I fear she will vote No as she would feel otherwise that she would be voting against the religion she is a devout follower of. Ironically and unsurprisingly, she also disapproves of sex before marriage so in true Catholic fashion, doesn't even entertain the notion of how that might be a problem for me! :) At least my straight siblings got the same hassle from that when it came to moving in with their partners before marriage!

    I would be upset and saddened but could not sever all ties with her over this as proposed by some other posters as life isn't that black and white particularly with family relationships.

    Couldn't you at least ask her to abstain?

    It's certainly not black and white and I feel for you in that position.

    But her religion's position will be unaffected by the referendum. At least by abstaining she isn't going out of her way to do you harm.


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    #38
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    gleesonger wrote: »
    Over the past few weeks I felt that the emotional anger as expressed in this forum towards the No side has caused me to want to vote no. For no reason other than I don't like political bullying and that people have the right to vote as they see fit with no fear of retribution.

    "If your argument is too strong they just criticise the delivery."


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    #39
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    The latest ones are the "I was going to vote Yes until I saw the bullying from the Yes side...." crew. Seen a few like that comment on fb etc.
    Yea. You were in me hole going to vote Yes. Just looking for an easy scapegoat to some-how justify and validate your innate prejudice and desire to keep "the gays" in their place.


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    #40
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Those people just seem like loudmouths. Lazy unlikely-to-vote loudmouths.


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    #41
    Zhane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Zhane


    I've stopped talking to a cousin of mine because of it. Not only because she is voting no, I guess I could respect her views on that. But she posted a fairly vile Facebook post about it, including the words ' disgusting' and 'god made adam and eve etc'. This is someone i grew up with and had a lot of time for her. But she doesn't exist to me anymore.


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    #42
    tomato1234
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭tomato1234


    Zhane wrote: »
    I've stopped talking to a cousin of mine because of it. Not only because she is voting no, I guess I could respect her views on that. But she posted a fairly vile Facebook post about it, including the words ' disgusting' and 'god made adam and eve etc'. This is someone i grew up with and had a lot of time for her. But she doesn't exist to me anymore.

    I am really sorry to hear about that. That is just so inappropriate and unconsidered. It is ok to express your view, but there is no need to be so nasty.


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    #43
    Vojera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Vojera


    Of course I'd be upset. How could I not be?

    I don't buy religion as a defence for voting no as this is a civil matter. I really hate the adoption and surrogacy arguments as those issues are not affected by the outcome of the referendum at all. Anyone using those as justification is either misinformed or wilfully spreading misinformation.

    It's not like I'd cut the person out of my life, but if someone looked me in the face and told me "I don't believe that you and your partner should be able to marry", even after hearing the real facts... Why would I ever want to be around that person ever again? It's hard enough hearing that stuff from strangers, but from a friend or a member of my family? I just can't see how I'd get past it. Imagine sitting down to tea with them and thinking that at best, this person thinks my relationship is lesser, and at worst thinks there's something wrong with it. I don't think I'd ever get over it.


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    #44
    tomato1234
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭tomato1234


    Please all coming out vote! I know the Yes vote is currently ahead in the poll. But the actual result can be very different. The Yes vote is heavily supported for the younger generation, however the chance of them coming out to vote is slim.

    Whereas the religious nuts would actually come out and vote. Get your family and friends to support you on the day. This is our chance to live a life with full potential and same opportunities like others.

    Yes to better human rights! Yes for better Ireland and economy!


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    #45
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Id like to see a poll made on here as to what people predict the voting numbers on each side of the referendum outcome to be.
    I think the Yes side will win by a very very marginal 1-3% percentage points.


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    #46
    highly1111
    Registered Users Posts: 967 ✭✭✭highly1111


    I'm straight, came across this in the recent posts thread, but I honestly don't know how I could relate to someone who can vote no. Their values and ideas are so so far removed from mine. I cannot understand how anyone could discriminate against another member by so blatantly denying them the right to marriage. I only know one person who is voting no - my bigot of a father in law who is a sexist, racist homophobe. I have no time for the man. However, that didn't stop me pulling back in disgust when he told me. When I asked him if why, he told me it was none of my business. That sums up the man to be honest. I replied saying that wasn't it wonderful for him that none of his children are gay given his views. Of course he had no reply. Just got all foul mouthed about it being a democracy..... Which I'm all for but at least have a reason for your vote. My children are too young to be aware of their sexuality but it repulses me that someone could deny them a right to marriage. Anyway, I digress. But I've never wanted a referendum to be passed so much in my life. I'm a bag of nerves that the Irish people might **** this up so I can only imagine how the LGBT community feel.


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    #47
    mark26ireland
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭mark26ireland


    Crew Crooked Oarlock wrote:
    I wouldn't get upset 'at' them (get mad etc) but I'd have little interest in being part of their lives any longer.


    Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!! I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents


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    #48
    tomato1234
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭tomato1234


    mark26ireland wrote: »
    Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!! I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents

    Well it is. A group of people is not allowed to have the basic human right like others. Do you really believe it is right?

    We are talking about the marriage now. So there is no need to mix up the topic.


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    #49
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    mark26ireland wrote: »
    Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!!

    It absolutely is a personal attack to say me and my relationship aren't equal.
    I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents

    That isn't an issue we're voting on. There are and will continue to be same-sex parents. This referendum solely relates to civil marriage.


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    #50
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,142 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    mark26ireland wrote: »
    Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!! I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents

    It's not a personal attack for someone you know to consider you undeserving of equality?

    Crikey - how much more personal can it get?


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    #51
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    mark26ireland wrote: »
    Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!! I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents

    It is actually personal to a lot of us and a lot of us do feel personally attacked. I don't get how that is difficult to understand. I will feel incredibly sad and hurt if My Dad votes no which he probably will. I will feel that he doesn't respect me and doesn't treat me the same as he treats my Brother and Sister. If the population votes no I think I will look into emigrating. I would find it hard to continue to live amongst a population that treats me as a lesser human being.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #52
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    mark26ireland wrote: »
    Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!! I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents

    Course it's personal ffs. Someone voting no to you having equal rights because of your sexuality. How much more personal do you want it to be?
    And are we voting on same sex parenting, news to me?


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    #53
    mark26ireland
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭mark26ireland


    tomato1234 wrote:
    We are talking about the marriage now. So there is no need to mix up the topic.


    Sorry, same sex marriage i am all for. Should have never been an issue


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    #54
    mark26ireland
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭mark26ireland


    My bad folks. Marriage i am all for. I didnt know this thread was solely for that


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    #55
    tomato1234
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭tomato1234


    Please vote yes for better human right! Better economy! A fair Ireland!


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    #56
    Vojera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Vojera


    mark26ireland wrote: »
    My bad folks. Marriage i am all for. I didnt know this thread was solely for that
    That's all the referendum is about too, but some people keep trying to confuse the issue.


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    #57
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Id like to see a poll made on here as to what people predict the voting numbers on each side of the referendum outcome to be.
    I think the Yes side will win by a very very marginal 1-3% percentage points.

    If I were a betting man.... 60% No and 40% Yes.

    I really don't see it padding, what with the mass apathy and conflation of parenting with marriage.


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    #58
    Zhane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Zhane


    Aard wrote: »
    If I were a betting man.... 60% No and 40% Yes.

    I really don't see it padding, what with the mass apathy and conflation of parenting with marriage.

    I don't see it passing either. I know that is very negative view to have. But there is a very real possibility. My expectations are very low. :(


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    #59
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    It should never have been a referendum in the first place...


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    #60
    Zhane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Zhane


    J_E wrote: »
    It should never have been a referendum in the first place...

    Agreed. It is what it is though. I really hope I'm proven wrong.


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    #61
    emuhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 145 ✭✭emuhead


    I don't know of any in my family or close friends voting no, but what I personally find hard to deal with is the apathy. It would be nice to feel some explicit support from straight friends and family that I am out to. Sometimes I wonder what's the point posting on social media about the referendum. I'm in my 30s and I see plenty of new baby photos, weddings among my friends/ family over the past few years. It's hard when you make an effort to celebrate others' lives and when you need something, there's little back. Some of my friends and family seem to be so wrapped up in their lives and young families that there's no room for passion / interest in the rights of people like me. Sorry for the moan it's just this referendum is getting to me. I Expected a better response I guess.


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