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Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

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    #452
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,522 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    AngryLips wrote: »
    If the tunneled Luas option under Glasnevin gets the green light then the resulting Broombridge spur will become as redundant the Connolly spur before the bloody thing is even built.

    Not if you're one of the many people who lives in the western part of Cabra, or the newer Ashtown estates, or indeed Finglas.


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    #453
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    So the whole public consultation thing, I'm guessing that's just a waste of the taxpayers hard work.


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    #454
    Ren2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Irish times article about Luas being the preferred option for link to Airport.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/luas-link-to-airport-likeliest-alternative-to-metro-north-1.2177345

    The IT must be delighted that their preferred option, a Luas extension to the airport, is the favourite of the govt. Typical Ireland, the cheapest option gets the nod at the expense of long term gain if they had have went with a proper Metro line. :rolleyes:


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    #455
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Has the Irish Times come out as cheerleading the Luas option in the past?


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    #456
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,841 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    why not simply have linked the luas lines by tunnel then and had it continue on to swords or wherever. Numbers travelling through Dublin airport were up 19% in March, year on year! Its a damn shame, MN and DU work had not commenced before s**t hit the fan, it would have been several billion that wasnt wasted as opposed to being the first thing off the agenda, to fund actual billions in waste...

    I take it, that if luas is chosen, it can be appealed and possibly held up for quite some time? Maybe long enough that with strong economic growth, that the Luas would then be found inadequate and back to MN?

    I find it disgraceful, that with the election coming up they are doing this for a) optics or B) because they think with the current figures they are at a point where they might still just about get away with this cheap option (which they wont after another year or two of strong growth... c) both of the above

    http://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/latest-news/15-04-09/Over_1_8_Million_Passengers_In_March_At_Dublin_Airport.aspx

    I am aware its about serving way more than the airport, there is also a massive housing shortage in Dublin and the MN would have a far higher capacity, that could result in higher density and housing people closer to the city...


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    #457
    Ren2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    Aard wrote: »
    Has the Irish Times come out as cheerleading the Luas option in the past?

    Their environment correspondent Frank McDonald was highly critical of Metro North and claimed a combination of Luas and BRT would better serve North Dublin:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/should-metro-north-survive-the-cutbacks-1.669336

    Oh, and McDonald previously whinged about the motorway network as well, saying a few bypasses would have more than sufficed. :rolleyes:


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    #458
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Given the low cost of funds currently, MN and DU should go ahead, together with the Clongriffin spur. Personally, MN would be better with Dart rolling stock.

    BRT to me is a cheap rubbish bendy-bus solution. How much extra is Luas? Surely it cannot be much extra to put down rails and overhead wires. Rolling stock might be heavy but with so much Luas already planned/under construction, it would not require huge extra numbers.


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    #459
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,853 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    And Dublin gets the penny pinching solution again.

    That will probably end up costing more in the long run.


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    #460
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,841 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I am just listening to that clown O'Donoghue on the radio talking about the options for north dublin link, dear god I wouldn't have him working stacking shelves in a corner shop! Dear god! This man is going to make a several hundred million to billion or more euro decision that will have a massive impact on Dublin for decades to come?! :eek::confused::mad::rolleyes:

    Build it right or dont build it at all, that area has had appalling transport options for decades, what is several more years, or one or two more, when they will have the "figures" to justify metro north?! That is how ridiculous this is, that if luas is chosen the thing wont even have passed the planning stage and the numbers will be there to justify metro north!


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    #461
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The journey time to Swords with the luas option would be over 45 minutes so you're still going to get people choosing faster bus services. The result is there won't be any relief for existing roads and pt services. Where as with MN, the rapid journey time and hihg capacity would have taken a lot more traffic off the road, the speed would make changing from a local bus to metro attractive. Now we'll be stuck with every estate wanting a bus rout into town.


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    #462
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Internationally is there a precedent for just keeping politicians out of these things?
    They have no engineering or urban planning background and don't really have a justifiable role in it. If they could be confined to signing the checks and cutting the ribbon I'd be happy.


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    #463
    nowecant
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭nowecant


    Which of the different options is this can anyone tell me?

    At reading that article I would be happier if they decided to proceed with Dart Underground and shelve making a decision on the link to the Airport for another year or two rather then having them make the wrong decision.

    The Luas is the wrong decision for a link to the Airport.


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    #464
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    If phase two was built (tunnel from Broadstone to SSG) then its really not a bad alternative. The Broadstone cutting is a very undervalued resource as a grade separated city approach.

    The routing around the airport/people mover is the biggest drawback imo.

    But the worst aspect is that transport plans for Dublin change with the weather. Hey if you don't like this project don't worry - it'll change again in 5 years.


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    #465
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,680 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    nowecant wrote: »
    Which of the different options is this can anyone tell me?

    At reading that article I would be happier if they decided to proceed with Dart Underground and shelve making a decision on the link to the Airport for another year or two rather then having them make the wrong decision.

    The Luas is the wrong decision for a link to the Airport.

    Let's face it, once DU is completed, the case for a Dart airport spur will be difficult to argue against because one of the main criticisms of the spur at the moment is that it fails to adequately serve the city centre. Compared against the full cost of MN, the spur will look like a bargain and have the added benefit of connecting the airport with Heuston station in addition to Stephen's Green. Meanwhile, this Luas option - although a poor comparison to MN - will actually do much of what MN was meant to do in terms of serving the north city residential areas and Swords.


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    #466
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    A fecking people mover?! I wish I was fully aware of that during the submissions as the methodology of the Aecom report (like with environmental considerations and the costings of the non-RPA proposals) was flawed enough and took up plenty of time having to point out a wide range of ignored aspects. That's before you have to point out clear issues with proposals they did make, like where are they actually going to tunnel HR8 now that the Broadstone alignment has been given to a glorified tram...

    They are missing the whole damn point... To build a luas line only to dump passengers at the entrance to the airport when there is space for a station in the airport grounds. Do they want to make another laughing stock of our public transport infrastructure?!

    Why oh why didn't they just tunnel from broadstone to harcourt street years ago...


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    #467
    nowecant
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭nowecant


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Let's face it, once DU is completed, the case for a Dart airport spur will be difficult to argue against because one of the main criticisms of the spur at the moment is that it fails to adequately serve the city centre. Compared against the full cost of MN, the spur will look like a bargain and have the added benefit of connecting the airport with Heuston station in addition to Stephen's Green.

    Agreed. And while my preferred solution is both DU and MN having DU and a spur would do a lot to increase Irish Rail numbers. Currently many people travel for hours by car to collect family members from the airport from all over the country. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of journeys that could be shortened by simply hopping on a train directly to the nearest station, Portlaois, Mullingar, Dundalk etc


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    #468
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    nowecant wrote: »
    Agreed. And while my preferred solution is both DU and MN having DU and a spur would do a lot to increase Irish Rail numbers. Currently many people travel for hours by car to collect family members from the airport from all over the country. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of journeys that could be shortened by simply hopping on a train directly to the nearest station, Portlaois, Mullingar, Dundalk etc
    There won't be any direct trains to Dundalk unless they design a junction that allows it. What's the odds that they won't even have an east-to-north turn when they get round to applying for a railway order?

    And the journey times from the airport via the spur, the GNR mainline and then Dart Underground to Heuston will be what... 45 minutes? 50 minutes? No improvement on the (also CIE-owned) Airlink that does it currently, outside of peak times.


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    #469
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,841 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    A fecking people mover?! I wish I was fully aware of that during the submissions as the methodology of the Aecom report (like with environmental considerations and the costings of the non-RPA proposals) was flawed enough and took up plenty of time having to point out a wide range of ignored aspects. That's before you have to point out clear issues with proposals they did make, like where are they actually going to tunnel HR8 now that the Broadstone alignment has been given to a glorified tram...

    They are missing the whole damn point... To build a luas line only to dump passengers at the entrance to the airport when there is space for a station in the airport grounds. Do they want to make another laughing stock of our public transport infrastructure?!

    Why oh why didn't they just tunnel from broadstone to harcourt street years ago...

    totally agree, this country is a joke, outrageous sums for welfare, bank bailout, public procurement, pensions etc, yet other areas have a spend the bare minimum attitude, despite the massive effect it has on our lives...

    O'donoghue (sic) comes across as the biggest joke of a minister... He comes across so timid and lacking in confidence...


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    #470
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,556 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    O'donoghue comes across as the biggest joke of a minister... He comes across so timid and lacking in confidence...

    There is no one by that name in the government - it might at least help if you got his name right.

    Passing judgement on someone's professional abilities on the basis of the way they speak (which is what you appear to be doing) is a tad harsh as well.

    As yet he apparently hasn't even received the report so I don't know why you are passing judgement on someone before any decision is made. It's been known in the past for governments to reject the advice of reports and make a different decision.


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    #471
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,841 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    sorry Paschael Donohoe, I hope you understood who I meant! This is just to clarify for other posters that might not have :rolleyes:
    As yet he apparently hasn't even received the report so I don't know why you are passing judgement on someone before any decision is made. It's been known in the past for governments to reject the advice of reports and make a different decision.
    yeah, no doubt they are flying a political kite, see what direction the wind is blowing... F**cking pathetic, I would nearly put the house on the Luas being the chosen option, I have to base my opinion on something and up to this point it is always the initially cheaper and short term option we get here, I have no reason to believe this time will be any different... I will delighted to be proved wrong.

    The bus lane at the cat and cage is still under construction, at a glacial pace and has been for over a year, on a key route into the city.

    Call me a cynic, but no doubt he was thrown into transport because the other ministers see him as a real soft touch, unlike Varadkar and the transport budget would be way less vigorously defended by him, the money can go to far better uses, like buying elections...


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    #472
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,853 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    This sort of nonsense wouldn't be tolerated in some rural backwater yet it seems it's good enough for our capital city.

    There needs to be an organised group along the proposed MN route campaigning for it, and against this absolute nonsense.


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    #473
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,556 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    sorry Paschael Donohoe, I hope you understood who I meant! This is just to clarify for other posters that might not have :rolleyes:

    yeah, no doubt they are flying a political kite, see what direction the wind is blowing... F**cking pathetic, I would nearly put the house on the Luas being the chosen option, I have to base my opinion on something and up to this point it is always the initially cheaper and short term option we get here, I have no reason to believe this time will be any different... I will delighted to be proved wrong.

    The bus lane at the cat and cage is still under construction, at a glacial pace and has been for over a year, on a key route into the city.

    Call me a cynic, but no doubt he was thrown into transport because the other ministers see him as a real soft touch, unlike Varadkar and the transport budget would be way less vigorously defended by him, the money can go to far better uses, like buying elections...

    I did understand but I wasn't sure you did, as you seemed to be on a highly personalised rant against the man. And even now you cannot get his name right!

    It's Paschal Donohoe.

    He has already managed to maintain the 2015 PSO subsidies at the 2014 levels, stopping the year-on-year reductions that had happened under Varadkar, so that in itself is a step in the right direction, so I don't really know where you are coming from with this.

    You seem to be basing every opinion on the fact that he has a slight speech impediment, which I frankly think is taking things too far, and unfair. It's no way to judge someone.

    Let's wait and see what he actually decides before passing judgement.


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    #474
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    lucernarian wrote: »
    There won't be any direct trains to Dundalk unless they design a junction that allows it. What's the odds that they won't even have an east-to-north turn when they get round to applying for a railway order?

    And the journey times from the airport via the spur, the GNR mainline and then Dart Underground to Heuston will be what... 45 minutes? 50 minutes? No improvement on the (also CIE-owned) Airlink that does it currently, outside of peak times.

    I reckon that it will take 15 to 17 min to get to Connolly or Docklands. With DU, it would be another 6 mins to get to SSG, possibly 30 mins to get from the Airport to Heuston. That would be assuming the signalling is fixed as they say it will be. A third (and possibly fourth) line on the northern line would make a huge difference, even if just to allow passing. The number of people passing through the airport is rising rapidly.


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    #475
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,556 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    lucernarian wrote: »
    And the journey times from the airport via the spur, the GNR mainline and then Dart Underground to Heuston will be what... 45 minutes? 50 minutes? No improvement on the (also CIE-owned) Airlink that does it currently, outside of peak times.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I reckon that it will take 15 to 17 min to get to Connolly or Docklands. With DU, it would be another 6 mins to get to SSG, possibly 30 mins to get from the Airport to Heuston. That would be assuming the signalling is fixed as they say it will be. A third (and possibly fourth) line on the northern line would make a huge difference, even if just to allow passing. The number of people passing through the airport is rising rapidly.

    Realistically you are looking at 24 minutes Airport to Docklands, and another 11 to get to Heuston or thereabouts, so 35 minutes I would suggest - but the trains would be calling at all stops (they will be part of the 10 minute frequency) so that you would have the benefit of a direct connection from much of northeast Dublin to the Airport, something that doesn't already exist.


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    #476
    Ren2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    lucernarian wrote: »
    A fecking people mover?! I wish I was fully aware of that during the submissions as the methodology of the Aecom report (like with environmental considerations and the costings of the non-RPA proposals) was flawed enough and took up plenty of time having to point out a wide range of ignored aspects. That's before you have to point out clear issues with proposals they did make, like where are they actually going to tunnel HR8 now that the Broadstone alignment has been given to a glorified tram...

    They are missing the whole damn point... To build a luas line only to dump passengers at the entrance to the airport when there is space for a station in the airport grounds. Do they want to make another laughing stock of our public transport infrastructure?!

    Why oh why didn't they just tunnel from broadstone to harcourt street years ago...

    There's been no decision on the 6 proposals. HR8 probably won't make the it, with C1 (Luas+Clongriffin spur) likely being the final choice by the Govt. Irish Rail will be lobbying the government intensively to get the spur built.


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    #477
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I reckon that it will take 15 to 17 min to get to Connolly or Docklands. With DU, it would be another 6 mins to get to SSG, possibly 30 mins to get from the Airport to Heuston. That would be assuming the signalling is fixed as they say it will be. A third (and possibly fourth) line on the northern line would make a huge difference, even if just to allow passing. The number of people passing through the airport is rising rapidly.
    It takes 17 minutes to make that journey? Hmmm. On the current timetable, a commuter train from Clongriffin and stopping only at Howth Junction would take 12 minutes minimum to get to Connolly. I did some rough calculations and assuming a line length of 7.5 km, it's going to take more than 5 minutes to go from Dublin Airport to Clongriffin if you account for the train stopping at Clongriffin and Howth Junction, assuming the new line from Clongriffin to the airport is indeed built to 100kph standards.

    Is the DASH upgrade going to allow for every airport dart to have only 2 stops before reaching the city centre? On top of planned increases in dart service with Dart Underground being built, assuming the Howth branch becomes a shuttle, and then Northern and Enterprise services to boot... Signalling is all well and good but with 2 tracks and there being no plans for 3 tracks on the horizon, I don't see how those times can be achieved, especially when the rest of the DART is operating at peak times.

    My calculations are based on an all-stopping DART service, though I shouldn't rule out 40 minutes. 40 minutes should be manageable with an all-stopping service to Heuston.
    Ren2k7 wrote: »
    There's been no decision on the 6 proposals. HR8 probably won't make the it, with C1 (Luas+Clongriffin spur) likely being the final choice by the Govt. Irish Rail will be lobbying the government intensively to get the spur built.
    I don't know what that is in response to or what the relevance is to the bolded part. By glorified tram, I mean the Luas if that's what you're getting at. And the Broadstone alignment is as we speak being prepared to have Luas tracks running through it within the next year or two. That's not a decision, it's a fact. And there's been no decision taken on HR8 either. Reading between the lines of the report, it was an Aecom-proposed scheme. It was lacking in some important details, like how to have a branch off the Maynooth line that doesn't involve lots of demolition and can tunnel sufficiently underneath Glasnevin Cemetery where it lies along the Finglas Road.


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    #478
    Ren2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    lucernarian wrote: »
    I don't know what that is in response to or what the relevance is to the bolded part. By glorified tram, I mean the Luas if that's what you're getting at. And the Broadstone alignment is as we speak being prepared to have Luas tracks running through it within the next year or two. That's not a decision, it's a fact. And there's been no decision taken on HR8 either. Reading between the lines of the report, it was an Aecom-proposed scheme. It was lacking in some important details, like how to have a branch off the Maynooth line that doesn't involve lots of demolition and can tunnel sufficiently underneath Glasnevin Cemetery where it lies along the Finglas Road.

    Yes, I get that you were talking about the Luas. And I'm well aware of what's been laid along the old Broadstone alignment at present. HR8 didn't conflict with Cross City so I'm not sure why that would have mattered. If LR3 is selected then there's no chance of HR8 been selected and vice versa. Aecom was well aware of this, hence why they were able to propose HR8 and LR3 for final approval by the NTA and DTTS. Only one will be chosen, the government isn't going to go ahead with two systems on the same alignment!


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    #479
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,556 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    lucernarian wrote: »
    It takes 17 minutes to make that journey? Hmmm. On the current timetable, a commuter train from Clongriffin and stopping only at Howth Junction would take 12 minutes minimum to get to Connolly. I did some rough calculations and assuming a line length of 7.5 km, it's going to take more than 5 minutes to go from Dublin Airport to Clongriffin if you account for the train stopping at Clongriffin and Howth Junction, assuming the new line from Clongriffin to the airport is indeed built to 100kph standards.

    Is the DASH upgrade going to allow for every airport dart to have only 2 stops before reaching the city centre? On top of planned increases in dart service with Dart Underground being built, assuming the Howth branch becomes a shuttle, and then Northern and Enterprise services to boot... Signalling is all well and good but with 2 tracks and there being no plans for 3 tracks on the horizon, I don't see how those times can be achieved, especially when the rest of the DART is operating at peak times.

    My calculations are based on an all-stopping DART service, though I shouldn't rule out 40 minutes. 40 minutes should be manageable with an all-stopping service to Heuston.


    As I posted above - probably more like 35 minutes to Heuston.


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    #480
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Ren2k7 wrote: »
    Yes, I get that you were talking about the Luas. And I'm well aware of what's been laid along the old Broadstone alignment at present. HR8 didn't conflict with Cross City so I'm not sure why that would have mattered. If LR3 is selected then there's no chance of HR8 been selected and vice versa. Aecom was well aware of this, hence why they were able to propose HR8 and LR3 for final approval by the NTA and DTTS. Only one will be chosen, the government isn't going to go ahead with two systems on the same alignment!
    Yep I know that too, but I still don't get you. HR8 as proposed (or what little they said about it) won't conflict with Cross City. But I'm not sure how they will fit in the curve and then the tunnel portals into the limited space in the area, or how much distance is needed for the tunnel entrance to have an acceptable gradient for trains to use it. There's not much distance between Glasnevin Junction and the Finglas Road/Glasnevin Cemetery.


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    #481
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,841 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Let's wait and see what he actually decides before passing judgement
    this decisions should be based on a long term adequate solution, not a decisions by a vested interest, which is what he is... Wasnt a report commissioned around 06/07 and ruled out Luas as being inadequate? it now suits I am sure, be seen to be doing something, a few people can justify their roles and most importantly, they might be able to ram it through before the growth is enough to take the option entirely off the table...

    If they are determined to shaft us with the luas joke, cease the bloody cross city route currently under construction (except for the bit from broombridge to red line, save a ton of road space and disruption, tunnel from SSG to Swords via O'Connell Street...


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