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Abortion Discussion
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Deleted User wrote: »
MrP0 -
Maybe Carolyn is the new face of the Pro-life campaign, a better image, so to speak. They may think it's better to have a woman speak about a woman's health issue than a man (David's being pushed aside). Carolyn is not yet as polished as David, but it's still objectionable to P**** a woman, unlike being unable to resist doing so to David.0
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I this clip odd. That objectionable woman was introduced as a legal adviser, but it would seem that she thinks she is some kind medical professional...
MrP
Does anyone know what obligation RTE are under in this area? If that was another medical report, surely they would just have the expert in the field commenting on his own at the end, without the need to provide a counterpoint.0 -
I know of someone who recently returned from having an abortion from the UK and threw away the medical cert she was given, who then needed medical care and was told by the dr she saw that if she could not prove she had the abortion in the UK, he would report her under the new law which carries a possible penalty of 14 years.
So yes until a woman can prove the ending of the life of the 'unborn' happened outside of the jurisdiction she may face prosecution here.
Drs are not compelled to report women who come to them or force them to prove were and when they had an abortion, this person was not a professional and turned out to be pro life.
Oh dear god, someone like that should not be allowed be a doctor!!!0 -
Deleted User wrote: »
It seemed that she had done some Google-Fu before the programme and was armed with printouts that allegedly prove that she knows more about biology and maternal health than the obstetrician. I don't know how the doctor kept his jaw off the studio floor with the ignorance of basic biology that was directed at him.If you can read this, you're too close!
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Loafing Oaf wrote: »Does anyone know what obligation RTE are under in this area? If that was another medical report, surely they would just have the expert in the field commenting on his own at the end, without the need to provide a counterpoint.
Apparently it's called for in the 2009 Broadcasting act.0 -
Zubeneschamali wrote: »I think the correct response here is "I double dog dare you". And if he refuses to treat her, it's lawyer time.
She has found another dr, as for lodging a complaint, it's one of things which will become a public matter, which is problematic for many women.0 -
Apparently it's called for in the 2009 Broadcasting act.
Isn't it amazing that balance provisions are only in play when rich white men are funding the fringe side?
To use a non-abortion example, the global warming deniers get media exposure way in excess of what the legitimacy of their case would demand, simply because a lot of big businesses and billionaires prefer an extra 10% profit now over their grandkids being able to breathe.0 -
Brian Shanahan wrote: »Isn't it amazing that balance provisions are only in play when rich white men are funding the fringe side?
To use a non-abortion example, the global warming deniers get media exposure way in excess of what the legitimacy of their case would demand, simply because a lot of big businesses and billionaires prefer an extra 10% profit now over their grandkids being able to breathe.
It comes down to the size of a person's or groups or institutions legal war chest.
If you have the money to bring a case to the high court you can cause the cost of 50 to a 100 grand to the other party before it ever sees the inside of a courtroom.
So to avoid that sort of expense and impact on legal indemnity insurance it's amazing what will be done.0 -
Brian Shanahan wrote: »Isn't it amazing that balance provisions are only in play when rich white men are funding the fringe side?
To use a non-abortion example, the global warming deniers get media exposure way in excess of what the legitimacy of their case would demand, simply because a lot of big businesses and billionaires prefer an extra 10% profit now over their grandkids being able to breathe.
I'm pretty sure their grandchildren will be on the good ship Elysium anyway.0 -
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More shit flying towards the fan.....
"Ms Y, the asylum seeker who unsuccessfully sought an abortion after arriving in Ireland pregnant as a result of alleged rape, was arrested in Liverpool five weeks before her baby was born by Caesarean section, The Irish Times has learned.
She was held by police for more than 11 hours after being arrested for illegally entering the UK from Ireland on July 1st last. She is believed to have travelled by ferry to Liverpool. Ms Y found out she was pregnant on April 4th this year, shortly after arriving in Ireland on March 28th. "
"A note timed at 3.49pm stated social services had been contacted. The writer records: “Basically I am querying what options if any there are in regards to [Ms Y] and solicitors representation that police, immigration and social services have a duty of care to [Ms Y] and this may well involve assisting her in obtaining a termination given the alleged circumstances of her pregnancy.”
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Two identity cards were among items taken from her while in custody. It is not known how she returned to Ireland. The incident is not recorded in the HSE draft report into her care or in the Department of Justice records on her case.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ms-y-held-in-uk-after-failing-to-obtain-abortion-here-1.1959893
(my bold and underline)0 -
Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,363 CMod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 17103
It seemed that she had done some Google-Fu before the programme and was armed with printouts that allegedly prove that she knows more about biology and maternal health than the obstetrician. I don't know how the doctor kept his jaw off the studio floor with the ignorance of basic biology that was directed at him.
It would be interesting to know who funded the paper she wanted to show Peter Boylan. Ya know, seeing as she's interested in balance.Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
CMod: Entertainment
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More shit flying towards the fan.....
"Ms Y, the asylum seeker who unsuccessfully sought an abortion after arriving in Ireland pregnant as a result of alleged rape, was arrested in Liverpool five weeks before her baby was born by Caesarean section, The Irish Times has learned.
She was held by police for more than 11 hours after being arrested for illegally entering the UK from Ireland on July 1st last. She is believed to have travelled by ferry to Liverpool. Ms Y found out she was pregnant on April 4th this year, shortly after arriving in Ireland on March 28th. "
I don't know what to say. How can this be mere incompetence, when it not only doesn't figure in official (Irish!) records, but doesn't even seem to have been referred to by anyone interviewed for the draft report?
It surely shines a new light on the true reasons behind the "investigation" and what it was really set up to do.
Separately, from a purely human point of view, the thought of that poor girl, barely 18, arrested for illegal entry and not knowing what effect that might have on her request for asylum in Ireland, with less than 30€ in her possession, makes me feel like weeping for her. And for Ireland. What have we become, to do that to someone?0 -
I don't know what to say. How can this be mere incompetence, when it not only doesn't figure in official (Irish!) records, but doesn't even seem to have been referred to by anyone interviewed for the draft report?Separately, from a purely human point of view, the thought of that poor girl, barely 18, arrested for illegal entry and not knowing what effect that might have on her request for asylum in Ireland, with less than 30€ in her possession, makes me feel like weeping for her. And for Ireland. What have we become, to do that to someone?
Certainly, a peculiar event all round.0 -
It certainly makes you wonder if the UK authorities did make any report to, or engage with, the HSE or DOJ at all, or did they just decide to put her back on a boat and leave her as someone else's problem. Which isn't necessarily incompetence, but thoughtless at least. The very fact that she was arrested at Birkenhead is interesting enough given the Common Travel Area lack of document checks, but perhaps she was particularly remarkable for some reason.
Certainly agree that there are many many questions to be answered here.
Your suggestion that she was just put back on the boat without informing Irish authorities seems implausible. How did she get back through the Irish customs, she wasn't an Irish national.
UK police say they confiscated two ID documents from her, so would they have given them back without some check up with their Irish counterparts as to whether or not they were genuine?0 -
Your suggestion that she was just put back on the boat without informing Irish authorities seems implausible. How did she get back through the Irish customs, she wasn't an Irish national.UK police say they confiscated two ID documents from her, so would they have given them back without some check up with their Irish counterparts as to whether or not they were genuine?0
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Your suggestion that she was just put back on the boat without informing Irish authorities seems implausible. How did she get back through the Irish customs, she wasn't an Irish national.
She was accompanied by the Irish authorities???and the immigration services simply had no reason to inform the HSE about it.
No...they wouldn't have had to inform the HSE if she was travelling with them, would they?
Never heard of the HSE bringing children in their care for abortions in the UK? No? Why not?
.....Because it would cause uproar, not because it doesn't happen.
(and I am assuming that in this case they brought this poor misfortunate refugee who was in their care and they couldn't manage to blag her a way through the UK port authorities - she was turned back, where probably 100's of pregnant Irish kids ACCOMPANIED by the HSE have not been)0 -
She was accompanied by the Irish authorities???No...they wouldn't have had to inform the HSE if she was travelling with them, would they?Never heard of the HSE bringing children in their care for abortions in the UK? No? Why not? .....Because it would cause uproar, not because it doesn't happen.(and I am assuming that in this case they brought this poor misfortunate refugee who was in their care and they couldn't manage to blag her a way through the UK port authorities - she was turned back, where probably 100's of pregnant Irish kids ACCOMPANIED by the HSE have not been)0
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Well, given that she was travelling in the CTA, there probably weren't any document checks on foot passengers, which is one of the reasons her arrest seems so unusual.
I wonder if they do routine checks. I've had my passport checked on a coach to NI and when I travelled to UK on the ferry (in Holyhead, about 2010/early 2011). I say me, but the whole coach was checked.0 -
I have no evidence for it. I am assuming. I am taking an educated guess. And I don't care much if you don't agree that my reading between the lines/filling in the gaps is right or wrong. It's quite well known that the HSE has accompanied pregnant girls in their care for abortions FAR more often than the 6 documented cases that the HSE admits/documents. Ms.Y was in their care at the time that she requested an abortion, yes? Yes. At the time she clearly was in Liverpool? Hmmm.....I'm saying yes. At the time she came back? Yes. See?
You guys were speculating as to how on earth all those solicitors/care workers etc. were just on-hand there and then at the port authority within 12 hrs. and I'm making an educated guess as to how that happened. The HSE interestingly has not recorded this incident in the draft report into her care. Because it's clear that there is more to this than meets the eye, I'm putting 2 + 2 together and making the usual *pass the sick bucket* Irish solution to an Irish problem.
Bet I'm proved right as the investigation continues.0 -
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I have no evidence for it. I am assuming.I am taking an educated guess.And I don't care much if you don't agree that my reading between the lines/filling in the gaps is right or wrong.It's quite well known that the HSE has accompanied pregnant girls in their care for abortions FAR more often than the 6 documented cases that the HSE admits/documents.Ms.Y was in their care at the time that she requested an abortion, yes? Yes. At the time she clearly was in Liverpool? Hmmm.....I'm saying yes. At the time she came back? Yes. See?You guys were speculating as to how on earth all those solicitors/care workers etc. were just on-hand there and then at the port authority within 12 hrs. and I'm making an educated guess as to how that happened.The HSE interestingly has not recorded this incident in the draft report into her care. Because it's clear that there is more to this than meets the eye, I'm putting 2 + 2 together and making the usual *pass the sick bucket* Irish solution to an Irish problem.Bet I'm proved right as the investigation continues.0
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Is it? When you say quite well known, do you mean by people reading between the lines and filling in the gaps, or is it actually known by people who possess and can present actual evidence of what they know?
Can't post links, but if you paste the following (broadsheet.ie/tag/separated-children/) into your http bar, with www. at the front, you will find that investigations into this have already turned up a distinct lack of paper trail/proof of this happening despite verbal evidence to the contrary (from people afraid of the consequences of speaking up publicly). Are you in the business of only believing something if it's a matter of public record?Isn't it a little incredible that they might go to all this trouble to bring her to Britain for an abortion, but not help her apply to the Department of Justice for travel papers allowing her to leave and re-enter Ireland,
Maybe they did apply to the Dept. of Justice and got her travel papers. All officially unofficial of course. Don't you think this happens? Incredible as it would be, it's a believable measure of the hypocrisy in this country.abandon her when she was arrested for illegally entering the country, and then need to ensure they weren't mentioned in subsequent reports? Or is it at all possible that the HSE may not be aware of, or responsible for, every movement made by every asylum seeker under their care?
It doesn't say which care authorities in the article, nor does it say who's "duty of care" she was in at the time. Plus, the HSE would seem to be quite used to not including any mention of their accompanying pregnant girls abroad for abortions in any reports. I would imagine that a HSE worker has gone above and beyond their official duties here and tried to help the girl go to the UK for an abortion in a semi-official but off the record capacity.But if you remove your own assumption that the HSE bizarrely involved itself in a attempt to illegally transport the girl across an international border, you're left with the somewhat simpler possibility that the HSE didn't record the incident in the draft report because it wasn't aware of it.
Yes, that's true. But I certainly don't discount the possibility that there is yet more farcical hypocrisy to come out in this case, and I certainly don't think my assuming that the HSE may have conducted itself in such a bizarre manner is unbelievable. She was hardly gone on the ferry to England on her own, nor explained her case to UK officials on her own without a word of English.What are the chances that if you're not, you'll believe it was a cover up?
Similar to the chances of you believing that the right thing to do would have been if Ms.Y had been allowed an abortion as early as she asked for one.0 -
you will find that investigations into this have already turned up a distinct lack of paper trail/proof of this happening despite verbal evidence to the contrary (from people afraid of the consequences of speaking up publicly). Are you in the business of only believing something if it's a matter of public record?Maybe they did apply to the Dept. of Justice and got her travel papers. All officially unofficial of course. Don't you think this happens? Incredible as it would be, it's a believable measure of the hypocrisy in this country.It doesn't say which care authorities in the article, nor does it say who's "duty of care" she was in at the time.Plus, the HSE would seem to be quite used to not including any mention of their accompanying pregnant girls abroad for abortions in any reports.I would imagine that a HSE worker has gone above and beyond their official duties here and tried to help the girl go to the UK for an abortion in a semi-official but off the record capacity.Yes, that's true. But I certainly don't discount the possibility that there is yet more farcical hypocrisy to come out in this case, and I certainly don't think my assuming that the HSE may have conducted itself in such a bizarre manner is unbelievable. She was hardly gone on the ferry to England on her own, nor explained her case to UK officials on her own without a word of English.Similar to the chances of you believing that the right thing to do would have been if Ms.Y had been allowed an abortion as early as she asked for one.0
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Ah jaysus wept. A sentence with "??" at the end of it is not stated as a fact, but a supposition. I still like my theory. It fits with what I think of this sorry systemic hypocrisy that even the state uses in order to make it look like abortion doesn't exist as an answer to crisis pregnancies in this country.
Considering what DID happen to the poor girl at the hands of this state, the scenario I'm suggesting is positively it's only redeeming feature, if indeed HSE personnel tried their best to get her to the UK.0 -
Ah jaysus wept. A sentence with "??" at the end of it is not stated as a fact, but a supposition. I still like my theory. It fits with what I think of this sorry systemic hypocrisy that even the state uses in order to make it look like abortion doesn't exist as an answer to crisis pregnancies in this country.
Considering what DID happen to the poor girl at the hands of this state, the scenario I'm suggesting is positively it's only redeeming feature, if indeed HSE personnel tried their best to get her to the UK.
And of course the fact that the draft report from the HSE doesn't appear to be worth the paper it's written on in terms of clarifying matters, your speculation is probably at least as close to the truth as the HSE report is so far anyway. They haven't even interviewed the most important person in the whole series of events, Ms Y.
So I just wanted to thank you for suggesting something that hadn't occurred to me and that certainly seems worth keeping in mind.0 -
Oh, cheers. Yes, it's wishful thinking on my part that the HSE has the kind of caring personnel who would take that kind of risk, and if it did happen, it didn't work out anyway as we can see from the cruel and sacrificial way Ms.Y was subsequently treated here. Ah well. Thanks for the reply :-)0
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I wonder if they do routine checks. I've had my passport checked on a coach to NI and when I travelled to UK on the ferry (in Holyhead, about 2010/early 2011). I say me, but the whole coach was checked.
Frito, if you are an Irish national, there is no legal obligation for you to have a passport on hand when travelling to the UK. There is a reciprocal agreement between the two nations that each other's nationals have free travel between the borders.
Any check which obliged an Irish national to show a passport by UK border authorities is illegal under UK law.0 -
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When the mention of Y being in Liverpool (after her pregnancy was diagnosed) was made here, I wondered how she could get back into the republic without being spotted, if she was detained on the far side with her documents temporarily held by Police. I'd imagine that some form of contact would have been made between the two police forces here and there about her arrest/detention as she is a foreign national to both countries and they operate the checks on them, before she was released from custody. If she WAS assisted/accompanied by HSE personnel in travelling to/from Liverpool that might explain how she got to and from so apparently freely. I'd imagine that the HSE would be upset if any mention of it, or it's staff, being allegedly involved in such inter-national movement were to be publicly discussed. I'd imagine that Iona and other like parties would be very upset at the very idea of a state agency working to procure "alternative terminations" abroad. All of mine above is based on Y's alleged travel to/from Liverpool and not to be taken as an excuse to put irrelevant questions to me. TTFN.0
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aloyisious wrote: »If she WAS assisted/accompanied by HSE personnel in travelling to/from Liverpool that might explain how she got to and from so apparently freely. I'd imagine that the HSE would be upset if any mention of it, or it's staff, being allegedly involved in such inter-national movement were to be publicly discussed. I'd imagine that Iona and other like parties would be very upset at the very idea of a state agency working to procure "alternative terminations" abroad. All of mine above is based on Y's alleged travel to/from Liverpool and not to be taken as an excuse to put irrelevant questions to me. TTFN.
I know it's pure speculation on my part, and is also a huge can of worms if true, but I can't be the only one who's thought this. Thinking it doesn't make it true, obviously, but IF it were true....IF....
Well, it would blow the whole debacle sky high wouldn't it? Suddenly the hand of the state would be forced into tackling some very unattractive truths about our impossible constitutional constraints on abortion and yes the likes of Iona would have a field day.
Of course, it could just have been a whip around among Ms Y's friends? And one of them gone with her? But in fairness, 28 euro wasn't going to get her far. There's more folks involved here than just Ms. Y.
If you're saying we shouldn't be speculating like this, is that in case it's true, or in case it isn't?0
This discussion has been closed.
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